Sola Scriptura--now I get

[Giver]

Philthy:

All good so far.

Hardly. The Church goes to great lengths to explain its teachings. In addition the Church doesnt exclude interpretations unless they contradict known doctrine.

Scriptures are not “arguments”. They are statements which convey various ideas. An argument would be a discussion which justified one of those ideas over another.

I have no idea why you think this contradicts Catholic teaching. Not one idea - you will need to tell me the ideas that are generated in YOUR mind when you read this and then reveal the Catholic doctrine you BELIEVE it contradicts, OK?

This supports the Catholic concept of Mortal Sin (as opposed to venial sin) and discredits the Protestant concept of all sin being equally deadly before God. I have no idea why else you would bring it up, but it seems to support Catholic teaching…

Totally Catholic theologically - please explain why you think otherwise.

Again, don’t know where you are going…

So what? How does that seem at odds with Catholic doctrine? All it says is that the Holy Spirit doesn’t lead us to sin. It doesnt say we wont sin. Again Im perplexed.

OK, I had to stop - you need to explain your gripe with each verse. I have no idea what you are talking about.

This is what you would call “pulling a rabbit out of a hat”: this statement comes out of nowhere and I doubt anyone knows:
a) what you mean by it
b) why you claim it
c) who the entity is that calls people evil
d) where you got this notion
Id be more than willing to discuss it, but it requires some background info/explaining…

You really need to go back and read the post to my threads; you will then know where I am coming from. I have been called some very unkind names.

Now that isn’t important though, what is important is that Christian, should know that people who know God don’t sin, also Christians are not to hurt (harm) anyone for any reason, store up for their future, call any man father, charge interest, own possessions.

 

[Mickey]

Giver:

Now that isn’t important though, what is important is that Christian, should know that people who know God don’t sin,

Are you saying that Christians don’t sin? :ehh:

 

[JSmitty2005]

Mickey:

Are you saying that Christians don’t sin? :ehh:

He’ll probably point to 1 John 5:18, “We know that no one begotten by God sins.”

 

[Giver]

Mickey:

Are you saying that Christians don’t sin? :ehh:

(1 John 1:8-10) “If we say we have no sin in us, we are deceiving ourselves and refusing to admit the truth; but if we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong. To say that we have never sinned is to call God a liar and to show that his word is not in us.”

What John said is we all have sinned. He tells us that not all sin leads to death. After he explains all that once he didn’t have to keep on explaining. So when he says: (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[Mickey]

(1 John 1:8-10) “If we say we have no sin in us, we are deceiving ourselves and refusing to admit the truth; but if we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong. To say that we have never sinned is to call God a liar and to show that his word is not in us.”

What John said is we all have sinned. He tells us that not all sin leads to death. After he explains all that once he didn’t have to keep on explaining. So when he says: (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

What do these Scriptures mean to you?

 

[JSmitty2005]

Mickey:

What do these Scriptures mean to you?

Yeah, Giver, what do they mean to you? Nothing, whether it’s the Bible or anything else, can interpret itself. What is *your * interpretation of those verses?

 

[Giver]

Mickey:

What do these Scriptures mean to you?

I am sharing some of the scriptures that Jesus used to teach me that Christians, who know God, are dead to sin.

 

[Mickey]

Giver:

I am sharing some of the scriptures that Jesus used to teach me that Christians, who know God, are dead to sin.

And what does this mean to you–that Christians never sin?

 

[Giver]

Mickey:

And what does this mean to you–that Christians never sin?

A mature Christian, one who knows God, doesn’t sin.

 

[Philthy]

Giver:

You really need to go back and read the post to my threads; you will then know where I am coming from. I have been called some very unkind names.

I have read your posts - they border on incoherency because YOU DON’T SAY WHAT YOU MEAN. You list a verse Scripture which you apparently assume to be self-explanatory and end your posts with ambiguous statements. Sorry, but the problem is not that I havent read your posts.

Giver:

… what is important is that Christians should know that people who know God don’t sin

OK, this I consider progress in communication. Thank you for your efforts. Unfortunately, I think this statement is misleading. You scoff at such a suggestion, Im sure, but I am not certain of what you mean when you say " people who “KNOW” God". What exactly does that mean? Does it mean everyone who acknowledges God? All Christians? Those who know God fully?
Because, frankly, to make such a statement as applying to all Christians is incredibly blind and ignorant of Scripture. Lets start with Peter: did he or did he not KNOW God when he confessed Jesus as the Messiah? I would say, better than anyone, he knew Jesus, who is God. He did, of course, deny Christ 3 times afterward and therefore broke at least 1 of the commandments in the process: he bore false witness. Would you agree that he knew God and he sinned subsequently? How do you reconcile this with your statement? How do you reconcile it with your own life? I could go on and on with examples, but I won’t until you have clarified what you meant and how it applies to a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

[Philthy]

Giver:

Mickey:

And what does this mean to you–that Christians never sin?

A mature Christian, one who knows God, doesn’t sin.

OK, again, very good - you have explained yourself. I didn’t see this when I posted previously. OK, so you believe a “mature”(ambiguous) Christian who “knows(ambiguous) God” will not sin. I don’t agree with that - even without having an agreement of what specifically constitutes a sin - but lets simply take it now on to the next step: how does this contradict a Catholic teaching? That was, after all, your big gripe - that the Catholic Church teaches doctrine which is opposed to the “teachings” of Scripture. So lets hear it - whats the doctrine that the Church teaches that contradicts this?

 

[Giver]

Philthy:

I have read your posts - they border on incoherency because YOU DON’T SAY WHAT YOU MEAN. You list a verse Scripture which you apparently assume to be self-explanatory and end your posts with ambiguous statements. Sorry, but the problem is not that I havent read your posts.

OK, this I consider progress in communication. Thank you for your efforts. Unfortunately, I think this statement is misleading. You scoff at such a suggestion, Im sure, but I am not certain of what you mean when you say " people who “KNOW” God". What exactly does that mean? Does it mean everyone who acknowledges God? All Christians? Those who know God fully?
Because, frankly, to make such a statement as applying to all Christians is incredibly blind and ignorant of Scripture. Lets start with Peter: did he or did he not KNOW God when he confessed Jesus as the Messiah? I would say, better than anyone, he knew Jesus, who is God. He did, of course, deny Christ 3 times afterward and therefore broke at least 1 of the commandments in the process: he bore false witness. Would you agree that he knew God and he sinned subsequently? How do you reconcile this with your statement? How do you reconcile it with your own life? I could go on and on with examples, but I won’t until you have clarified what you meant and how it applies to a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I wonder if you after you read the following scripture if maybe you will understand what it means to know God?

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

Now anyone should be able to judge if they know God or not. If he or she sins then they don’t know God.

 

[Philthy]

Giver:

I wonder if you after you read the following scripture if maybe you will understand what it means to know God?
(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

Now anyone should be able to judge if they know God or not. If he or she sins then they don’t know God.

I will readily admit that I don’t know God fully, but I acknowledge Jesus as the Christ. That only relegates me to the “immature Christian” status according to my understanding of your minimally articulated theology of sin. So what - what does that mean for me and what is the signifance of it? I need to grow as a Christian - I agree. But what is your point - exactly? And please remember to tie it into a teaching of the Church…

As far as the verse goes, you continue to dwell in ambiguities as if there is only one understanding. You are very good at playing bluff poker I bet. Lets have you define - specifically - some of the descriptive terminology of this verse. I will places asterisks around some terms which require interpretation - you are to provide it:

As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

I am most especially interested in the definition of “have fallen away” - do you believe that it simply is equivalent to “have sinned” or “have continued to sin”?

 

[jim1130]

GIVER:

Originally Posted by Giver
Now that isn’t important though, what is important is that Christian, should know that people who know God don’t sin,

Mickey:

Are you saying that Christians don’t sin? :ehh:

No wonder people convert to SS, Bible-only, and Protestantism. What a great marketing and sales pitch! With them, there are no consequences to actions, whether past, present, or future. And even if you do sin then you are not really sinning!

 

[Giver]

Philthy:

I will readily admit that I don’t know God fully, but I acknowledge Jesus as the Christ. That only relegates me to the “immature Christian” status according to my understanding of your minimally articulated theology of sin. So what - what does that mean for me and what is the signifance of it? I need to grow as a Christian - I agree. But what is your point - exactly? And please remember to tie it into a teaching of the Church…

As far as the verse goes, you continue to dwell in ambiguities as if there is only one understanding. You are very good at playing bluff poker I bet. Lets have you define - specifically - some of the descriptive terminology of this verse. I will places asterisks around some terms which require interpretation - you are to provide it:

As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

I am most especially interested in the definition of “have fallen away” - do you believe that it simply is equivalent to “have sinned” or “have continued to sin”?

Accepting Jesus as your saviour and God is one step, giving your life to Jesus is another step; being filled with the Holy Spirit is another step. Understanding that Jesus is our lord and God and he along with the Holy Spirit will teach us about him is so very important. Jesus told me he is God and the Bible is his Word, so to me if a person wants to be close to God, read and read his Word. Then make up your mind that no mater what, you will live that Word to the best of your ability. Pray that the Holy Spirit leads you to know how to live the Word, and give you the grace to do so.

When almost every moment of your life is focused on Jesus then you will know you are one with him, and when you really know him there is no way you will deliberately hurt him. First, because you love him, next because you know that would be the end of you.

 

[Angainor]

DARichards:

The Lord guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His Apostles into all truth. A favorite saying of mine is: “Context in our friend.” In this scripture, the context states that Christ is not speaking to the general population of those who believed in Him, but rather only to His Apostles.

This is why I hold the recorded teachings of the Apostles in high esteem.

 

[DARichards]

Angainor:

This is why I hold the recorded teachings of the Apostles in high esteem.

So my next question would be that if Christ gave that gift to the original 12 apostles, where did that gift go? Did it disappear, or was it transferred by Apostolic Succession, or are there any other options?

 

[Angainor]

Stephen Butler:

Actually, it was the very need for authority which prompted the assembly of the canon. There was a broad outcry to determine which writings were divine and which were not.

To “assemble” the cannon in much different than to “determine” the cannon. I would say “assemble”. What would you say?
Stephen Butler:

But what Church are you referring to? Baptist? Pentacostal? It is true that the Church was working preserve the words of those whom God divinely inspired, but which Church?

The Church, the body of Christ.
Stephen Butler:

And if you trust this Church enough to accept all of its decisions, without question, regarding not only what is divinely inspired, but what is not, then why do you choose to disregard everything else those same people believed?

I trust the Church to uphold the truth and keep it safe. No more, no less. No, of course I do not accept the decisions of individual people without question

 

[Angainor]

DARichards:

So my next question would be that if Christ gave that gift to the original 12 apostles, where did that gift go? Did it disappear, or was it transferred by Apostolic Succession, or are there any other options?

The Apostles “disappeared”, yes. I have no reason to believe the gift was transferred to anyone save Matthias.

The Apostles did choose someone to replace Judas. This is how they decided who to pick: “Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

Witnesses to the resurrection would have disappeared, leaving no more candidates for replacement.

 

[DARichards]

Angainor:

The Apostles “disappeared”, yes. I have no reason to believe the gift was transferred to anyone save Matthias.

The Apostles did choose someone to replace Judas. This is how they decided who to pick: “Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

Witnesses to the resurrection would have disappeared, leaving no more candidates for replacement.

If there is no gift of infallibility to anyone here on earth, then what certainty do you have that what you are believing, and teaching is the absolutely correct interpretaion of Scripture? There is none.

Do you truly believe that our Lord would leave his infallible, inerrant, inspired Word here without a guardian? If He has taken care to preserve it over 2,ooo years, He would want it interpreted as He wants it, not as we see fit…