Sola Scriptura--now I get

[Pax]

Angainor:

If someone is part of the body of Christ, they are part of the body of Christ. I don’t see how their conscientious decision on who to associate with could change that.True unity could only come from an honest testing of doctrine and agreement to the understanding of truth. Your dismissal of the testing of doctrine as “personal interpretation” (as if the Bible were blank pages and we are given no tools to improve our understanding of the truth) puts a wall between us that prevents any kind of true unity. Sure, you invite me over the wall, but only after I abandon my and my church’s (small c) understanding of truth and discard my conscience.

If I have somehow put you off then I apologize. As far as your statement concerning the body of Christ is concerned I will say this. I consider non-Catholic Christians to be part of the body of Christ. Even though you and I are both members of that body, we are, neverthesless, separated members. This is not what our Lord Jesus desires for us.

I do not dismiss testing of doctrine. I would, however, contend that most doctrine has been tested. Occassionally something new does come up and the church must rule on it. Embrionic stem cell research would be a recent case in point.

My concern is based on what is painfully obvious on the Christian landscape. The unity that once existed is terribly fractured now, and I see little on the horizon other than “very slow” ecumenical progress. Whenever I read the 17th chapter of John’s gospel, I am bowled over by the tragic disunity that Jesus wants us to avoid.

I believe that unity is not achieved by a “conscientious decision on who to associate with.” Unity is acheived by everyone accepting the truth. The truth is not relative…the truth is absolute. Our choices as to what faith community to join must be based upon the fullness of the truth. Getting to that unity is what I’m interested in.

 

[Pax]

Angainor:

If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 2 Thessalonians 3:14
Paul trusted the Thessalonians to interpret “this letter” (2 Thessalonians) and to recognize when someone wasn’t obeying the instructions therein.

We are expected to be able to recognize when people aren’t following the instructions. It is our responsibility.

While everyone might agree on Paul’s instruction, we all disagree on how it is to be applied. Some think one thing as opposed to another and off we go in different directions. I think your point begs the question. If not, then help clear my head of the fog therein.

 

[NPS]

Angainor:

You were on the right track until you projected a “because…” onto me.

Of course I wouldn’t submit to any church or body that proclaimed authority. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. If any church or body proclaimed authority over me I would know it is false.

Do you ever even read the books from which you quote so liberally? Do you have any idea of the context that passage was written in?
I’ve never seen so much Song-and-Dance in my life. :tiphat:

 

[NPS]

montanaman:

I am continually amazed–despite experience–at what Protestants will do to wiggle out of their mangled theology. “Free association?” This is an actual idea among Protestants now? Whatever they’re calling it now, it’s still “church shopping.” It’s still “looking for something palatable to me.”

I’ll have to hang out here more. I always find it entertaining when they play these word games. You know, when “water” becomes “amniotic fluid,” “eat my flesh” becomes “remember my teachings” and “You are not justified by faith alone” means “You are justified by faith alone.”

So true, so true. I have read back through this thread and I am amazed at all the gyrations and elastic interpretations Angainor in particular has used. He’s almost a sort of Bible Comic Book SuperHero. Stretch around that problem, bend this argument, dodge that question. Context means nothing. Simply search a word or concept and link from BibleGateway and keep plugging away.
I’m actually a little fascinated by it. Or maybe I’m just tired.

 

[believers]

Sola Scriptura…so this is what all the fuss is about. Some of you already know me from another thread so you know where I stand. I’d like to get anyone’s interpretation of these verses from 2 Timothy 3:15-17

15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

 

[Mickey]

believers:

15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

Agreed!

believers:

16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Agreed! (notice it doesn’t say “only Scripture”)

believers:

17 “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Agreed!

 

[jim1130]

Angainor:

If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 2 Thessalonians 3:14
Paul trusted the Thessalonians to interpret “this letter” (2 Thessalonians) and to recognize when someone wasn’t obeying the instructions therein.

We are expected to be able to recognize when people aren’t following the instructions. It is our responsibility.

Peace.

Weren’t the Bereans more noble-hearted than the Thessalonians? At least the SS advocates think so.

Peace.

 

[MariaG]

Angainor:

If someone is part of the body of Christ, they are part of the body of Christ. I don’t see how their conscientious decision on who to associate with could change that.True unity could only come from an honest testing of doctrine and agreement to the understanding of truth. Your dismissal of the testing of doctrine as “personal interpretation” (as if the Bible were blank pages and we are given no tools to improve our understanding of the truth) puts a wall between us that prevents any kind of true unity. Sure, you invite me over the wall, but only after I abandon my and my church’s (small c) understanding of truth and discard my conscience.

That is not true. The difference is that as a Catholic Christian, we trust the promises Christ made about His church.

Since we believe that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth, if we disagree with a something, we first can find out if it is a practice or doctrine. If it is doctrinal, we know the problem is with our understanding and try to conform our conscience to the Church. Why? Because we know the Church is right.

But the Church never tells us to abandon our own conscience. We need to listen to it in our walk. In fact, the Catholic Church exhorts us all to follow our conscience.

Here is a link to the beginning of it. (1776 - 1802) You can certainly continue to believe that the Church requires you to throw away your conscience but that is not a teaching of the Catholic Church any more than worshipping Mary is.

ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE
**1776 **“Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Giver]

MariaG:

That is not true. The difference is that as a Catholic Christian, we trust the promises Christ made about His church.

Since we believe that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth, if we disagree with a something, we first can find out if it is a practice or doctrine. If it is doctrinal, we know the problem is with our understanding and try to conform our conscience to the Church. Why? Because we know the Church is right.

But the Church never tells us to abandon our own conscience. We need to listen to it in our walk. In fact, the Catholic Church exhorts us all to follow our conscience.

Here is a link to the beginning of it. (1776 - 1802) You can certainly continue to believe that the Church requires you to throw away your conscience but that is not a teaching of the Catholic Church any more than worshipping Mary is.

ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE
**1776 **“Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

God Bless,
Maria

What is so sad is the Catholic people have been so convinced that what ever their church says is right, that if Jesus comes and tells them, a Catholic teaching is wrong, they will say go away you have to be Satan you can’t be God. What is so strange is the Jews in Jesus’ time did the same thing.

What a great way for some people to maintain control of other people. Just make them believe your right no matter what someone else says and then what ever you do can’t be wrong.

This should be a rule for all Christians: No matter who tell you anything about God ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.

 

[montanaman]

Giver:

What is so sad is the Catholic people have been so convinced that what ever their church says is right, that if Jesus comes and tells them, a Catholic teaching is wrong, they will say go away you have to be Satan you can’t be God. What is so strange is the Jews in Jesus’ time did the same thing.

What a great way for some people to maintain control of other people. Just make them believe your right no matter what someone else says and then what ever you do can’t be wrong.

This should be a rule for all Christians: No matter who tell you anything about God ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.

Thanks for the advice. Jesus has repeatedly encouraged me through the Church, and urges me to stay put. I’m sure all the practicing Catholics here would say the same.

 

[MariaG]

believers:

Sola Scriptura…so this is what all the fuss is about. Some of you already know me from another thread so you know where I stand. I’d like to get anyone’s interpretation of these verses from 2 Timothy 3:15-17

15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

I do not recall the pleasure of yet “talking” with you. I assume you are not Catholic by puting “born-again Christian” in your religion post although that is somewhat confusing since I am a born-again Catholic Christian.

So telling me you are born again, just tells me you are a Christian but not what denomination.

However,

I interpret those Scriptures to be thus:

2Tim 3:15 tells us that Scripture can help make us wise

2Tim 3:16 All Scirpture is good to use including for correction and instruction

2Tim 3:17 and that being wise and corrected, he is ready for good work.

Okay, I have a few for you.

2 Thess 2:15 - Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

2 Thess 3:6 - And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.

Jn 21:25 - But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Mk 13:31 - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away.

**The verses that you posted tell us how good Scripture is to read to help us in our Christian life. **No where do they say only follow the written word.

My verses tell us to follow the traditions passed on whether by word or letter. It also tells us that Jesus’s words will never pass away.

So where in Scripture is it written that it has all been written down now, only follow the written words and not the oral ones anymore?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[NPS]

Giver:

What is so sad is the Catholic people have been so convinced that what ever their church says is right, that if Jesus comes and tells them, a Catholic teaching is wrong, they will say go away you have to be Satan you can’t be God. What is so strange is the Jews in Jesus’ time did the same thing.

What a great way for some people to maintain control of other people. Just make them believe your right no matter what someone else says and then what ever you do can’t be wrong.

Horse doo-doo. Let’s reword that:

What is so sad is the Anti-Catholic people have been so convinced that what ever their church says about Catholicism is right, that if Jesus comes and tells them, a Catholic teaching is correct and has been for over 2000 years, they will say go away you have to be Satan you can’t be God. What is so strange is the Jews in Jesus’ time did the same thing.

 

[Giver]

montanaman:

Thanks for the advice. Jesus has repeatedly encouraged me through the Church, and urges me to stay put. I’m sure all the practicing Catholics here would say the same.

Jesus never told you that it was right to kill for any reason, that you are a good boy even if you do commit a deliberate sin, you have a right to charge interest, call another man father, store up for you future, have possessions.

 

[montanaman]

Giver:

Jesus never told you that it was right to kill for any reason, that you are a good boy even if you do commit a deliberate sin, you have a right to charge interest, call another man father, store up for you future, have possessions.

How would you know what Jesus has or has not told me, pops?

As for your list, I never said Jesus did tell me those things. In fact, Catholics reject #1 and #2. Charing interest is a bizarre thing to get huffy about, calling priests “father” is just fine (it’s even Biblical), and now, what? You have a problem with saving for retirement??? Is there some sort of non sequiter class people take when they embrace heresies?

By the way–if anyone’s whispering in your ear, it sure isn’t Jesus. There. I said it. Man, I feel so much better.

 

[Mickey]

Giver:

What a great way for some people to maintain control of other people. Just make them believe your right no matter what someone else says and then what ever you do can’t be wrong.

The reformers attempted to maintain control by teaching that whatever the Catholic Church teaches, is wrong–then they divided into thousands.

Avoid the noxious weeds. Their gardener is not Jesus Christ, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I found any division in your midst; but I did find that there had been a purge. Surely, all those that belong to God and Jesus Christ are the very ones that side with the bishop; and all those that may yet change their mind and return to the unity of the Church, will likewise belong to God, and thus lead a life acceptable to Jesus Christ. Do not be deceived, my brethren: if a man runs after a schismatic, he will not inherit the kingdom of God; if a man chooses to be a dissenter, he severs all connection with the Passion.
St Ignatius of Antioch

Shun division as the beginning of evil.
St Ignatius of Antioch

 

[Giver]

Mickey:

The reformers attempted to maintain control by teaching that whatever the Catholic Church teaches, is wrong–then they divided into thousands.

Avoid the noxious weeds. Their gardener is not Jesus Christ, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I found any division in your midst; but I did find that there had been a purge. Surely, all those that belong to God and Jesus Christ are the very ones that side with the bishop; and all those that may yet change their mind and return to the unity of the Church, will likewise belong to God, and thus lead a life acceptable to Jesus Christ. Do not be deceived, my brethren: if a man runs after a schismatic, he will not inherit the kingdom of God; if a man chooses to be a dissenter, he severs all connection with the Passion.
St Ignatius of Antioch

Shun division as the beginning of evil.
St Ignatius of Antioch

I quote the Word of God and you quote some man. Now whom do you think people should listen to???

 

[montanaman]

Giver:

I quote the Word of God and you quote some man. Now whom do you think people should listen to???

That’s a joke, right? You come here with a little song-and-dance about how Jesus speaks audibly to you, try to give us some new revelation, and you have a problem with the words of someone who was disciple of a disciple of an apostle?

Among other things, you have consistency problems.

YOUR words are not scripture, nor are they any kind of the word of God. YOU are not an apostle. YOU are not a scripture writer. YOU have not even been ordained by any of them. And yet you expect us to drop everything and follow YOU? We all like to have a little fun around here, but even farce has an element of truth in it.

 

[Mickey]

Giver:

I quote the Word of God and you quote some man. Now whom do you think people should listen to???

Since you have difficulty with the interpretaion of the Word of God, I thought it would be helpful for you to hear the words of St Ignatius of Antioch. He was born in AD 50 and martyred in Rome between AD 98-117. He was a disciple of the Apostle St John and was appointed as bishop of Antioch by the Apostle St Peter. He was led to Rome in chains and devoured by wild beasts.

If St Ignatius got it wrong, then we’re all in a lot of trouble.** **

 

[Angainor]

Pax:

If I have somehow put you off then I apologize. As far as your statement concerning the body of Christ is concerned I will say this. I consider non-Catholic Christians to be part of the body of Christ.

That is good. Of course I think that all members have an active role in the Church’s main activity of being a pillar and foundation of truth.

I don’t think that any members are the appendix, with no apparant contribution.

 

[Angainor]

MariaG:

If it is doctrinal, we know the problem is with our understanding and try to conform our conscience to the Church. Why? Because we know the Church is right.

I do not seek to arbitrarily conform my conscience to anyone else’s (except Jesus’). If I can become convinced another’s conscience is correct about the truth, that is another story.

Here I stand, I can do no other.