Sola Scriptura--now I get

[DARichards]

believers:

Sola Scriptura…so this is what all the fuss is about. Some of you already know me from another thread so you know where I stand. I’d like to get anyone’s interpretation of these verses from 2 Timothy 3:15-17

15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Believers,
Here is a question for you. When Paul was writing this letter to Timothy, do you have any idea what the “Holy Scriptures” were??

Anyone…

The Scriptures that Paul was refering to were the Old Testament. The New Testament was still in the authorship process and had not been compiled yet. Most certainly the entire Bible had not even been compiled yet. Furthermore verses 16-17 must also be taken into context with 1Timothy 3:15 (curious enough) which states:

14
I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Was God contradicting Himself here?

The next point is that the term “word of God” Doesn’t always refer to the written 66 books (73 for us Catholics) that we have had compiled as our Bible. God’s word comes to us not only through the written Word, but also by the Church. This combination would verify “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

 

[MariaG]

Angainor:

I do not seek to arbitrarily conform my conscience to anyone else’s (except Jesus’). If I can become convinced another’s conscience is correct about the truth, that is another story.

Here I stand, I can do no other.

And so you should stay until you are convinced otherwise.

To do otherwise would be untrue to Christ and that which is written in your heart.

But for me, as a Catholic Christian whom God showed me the truth of His Church, to fail to conform my conscience is a rejection of Christ, who is the Church.

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Giver:

What is so sad is the Catholic people have been so convinced that what ever their church says is right, that if Jesus comes and tells them, a Catholic teaching is wrong, they will say go away you have to be Satan you can’t be God. What is so strange is the Jews in Jesus’ time did the same thing.

What a great way for some people to maintain control of other people. Just make them believe your right no matter what someone else says and then what ever you do can’t be wrong.

This should be a rule for all Christians: No matter who tell you anything about God ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.

Hi Giver,

Problem for you is this. While technically a “revert”, (ie baptized as an infant), I was not raised in the Catholic Church.

I came to the truth that the Catholic Church teaches all truth through Scripture alone and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

God’s inspired word tells us that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”.

So if the Church, even if it was earlier than 300ad or after 1400, fell into error, it is no longer a pillar and foundation of truth. If the Church is no longer a pillar and foundation of truth is, scripture cannot be the inspired word of God. If scripture is not the inspired word of God, why be a Christian?

The Church cannot fall into error or it makes Scripture a lie.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Philthy]

Giver:

*Accepting Jesus as your saviour and God is one step, giving your life to Jesus is another step; being filled with the Holy Spirit is another step. Understanding that Jesus is our lord and God and he along with the Holy Spirit will teach us about him is so very important. Jesus told me he is God and the Bible is his Word, so to me if a person wants to be close to God, read and read his Word. Then make up your mind that no mater what, you will live that Word to the best of your ability. Pray that the Holy Spirit leads you to know how to live the Word, and give you the grace to do so.

When almost every moment of your life is focused on Jesus then you will know you are one with him, and when you really know him there is no way you will deliberately hurt him. First, because you love him, next because you know that would be the end of you.*

Hi Giver-

Nice to see you back! Maybe now we can finish some loose ends. Here is a re-post from my post to you #212 which you never addressed - you were busy in another thread…Im still anxious to hear your thoughts…

This is so much better than your previous stuff - thank you for taking the time to share it. :yup: …I have 2 remaining problems. The first is that you initiated this exchange with the context of this teaching somehow contradicting a teaching of the Catholic Church, and I still don’t see it. I feel like you have said what you wished to say regarding what it means to be a mature Christian, and I think it is worthy of reflection, but you have claimed these truths to be in opposition to Catholic Church teachings. I do think it is appropriate that you either reveal the contradiction or retract it outright. Im not even accusing you of being wrong, but either share your percieved contradiction or choose to withdraw it, no?
The other problem, and this is probably off topic, is how this information is meant to be useful to the vast majority of Christians who are immature and therefore still growing. Do you think that the Church does not emplore its faithful to continue to grow in His likeness? That certainly is not my impression. That could easily apply to those Protestants who adhere to OSAS with no restrictions applied to remaining sin in their life, but that is definitely another thread. Or is your position that one becomes instantly mature at a moment in time? I don’t think so because of your opening statement which separates various elements of faith, but Im a little confused. Do you mind explaining a little further?

 

[NPS]

Originally Posted by believers
Sola Scriptura…so this is what all the fuss is about. Some of you already know me from another thread so you know where I stand. I’d like to get anyone’s interpretation of these verses from 2 Timothy 3:15-17

15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

DARichards:

Believers,
Here is a question for you. When Paul was writing this letter to Timothy, do you have any idea what the “Holy Scriptures” were??

Anyone…

The Scriptures that Paul was refering to were the Old Testament. The New Testament was still in the authorship process and had not been compiled yet. Most certainly the entire Bible had not even been compiled yet. Furthermore verses 16-17 must also be taken into context with 1Timothy 3:15 (curious enough) which states:

14
I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Was God contradicting Himself here?

The next point is that the term “word of God” Doesn’t always refer to the written 66 books (73 for us Catholics) that we have had compiled as our Bible. God’s word comes to us not only through the written Word, but also by the Church. This combination would verify “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Good points, DAR. And it goes even deeper than that. Timothy had a Jewish mother and greek father and did not speak Hebrew. So what were these scriptures Paul is specifically referring to? The Greek Septuagint. The very same version of the Tanakh that Protestants would reject 1700-2000 years after Jesus, the Apostles and all of the first Christians used it as their “scriptures.”
The scriptures Jesus, the Apostles and earliest Christians used would, 2000 years later be called, by “Bible Christians”, spurious books added to the bible by that dastardly, mean old sneaky Catholic Church. Ironic? Sad? Infuriating? Laughable? Ignorant?
Some mix of all of those things.

 

[joshua_b]

If I may chime in here, I would say all of those things plus one…EVIL. Satan is the father of all lies, and it behooves us all to remember that he has angelic intelligence, and is therefore smarter than us.

 

[SemperJase]

believers:

15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Paul was saying to not reject what we now refer to as the Old Testament (there were no recognized NT scriptures when Paul wrote this, he could only have been speaking of the OT).
Even though there was a new covenant in Jesus, the old scriptures were still profitable to learn from.

It is not a claim of sola scriptura. If you think that is what verse 17 means, you are really saying Paul is teaching Sola Old Testament.

 

[montanaman]

This reminds me of a few bits of advice my daddy gave me:

“There’s no such thing as an unloaded gun.”

“Never get between a momma bear and her cub.”

“Never buy a horse from a man named ‘Ace.’”

“Don’t ever take home a midget bartender.”

And,

“Never, ever, let a papist wrangle you into a discussion about sola scriptura.*”

*Elements of this reflection may not be true.

 

[believers]

SemperJase:

Paul was saying to not reject what we now refer to as the Old Testament (there were no recognized NT scriptures when Paul wrote this, he could only have been speaking of the OT).
Even though there was a new covenant in Jesus, the old scriptures were still profitable to learn from.

It is not a claim of sola scriptura. If you think that is what verse 17 means, you are really saying Paul is teaching Sola Old Testament.

SemperJase,

Just to get a better perspective of the Catholic interpretation, could you please list a few verses in the Old Testament that “make [us] wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”?

 

[DARichards]

believers:

SemperJase,

Just to get a better perspective of the Catholic interpretation, could you please list a few verses in the Old Testament that “make [us] wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”?

Where do you want to start?? From the beginning of the Old Testament the prophecies foretold the coming of the Messiah, they predicted His Virgin Birth, the prophecied that He would have a Kingdom with no end, the prophecied that He would be crucified for our sins, the prophecied that He would rise from the dead. Those who read and understood these scriptures became “wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” because they saw Him as the fullfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament

 

[believers]

DARichards:

Where do you want to start?? From the beginning of the Old Testament the prophecies foretold the coming of the Messiah, they predicted His Virgin Birth, the prophecied that He would have a Kingdom with no end, the prophecied that He would be crucified for our sins, the prophecied that He would rise from the dead. Those who read and understood these scriptures became “wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” because they saw Him as the fullfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament

Didn’t the priests in Jesus time believe in the Holy Scriptures?

 

[DARichards]

believers:

Didn’t the priests in Jesus time believe in the Holy Scriptures?

What do you mean by believe in the Holy Scriptures? At that time the priests in Jesus day only had what we would know as the Old Testament, or the Septuagint. They may have believed, but their eyes weren’t opened to realize Christ as the fulfillment of these prophecies.

 

[believers]

DARichards:

What do you mean by believe in the Holy Scriptures? At that time the priests in Jesus day only had what we would know as the Old Testament, or the Septuagint. They may have believed, but their eyes weren’t opened to realize Christ as the fulfillment of these prophecies.

I’m not in agreement or disagreement as of yet. I’m still trying to learn from both sides. However, I’m not a non-denom because of “Sola Scripture”. I explained why in another thread of which you are aware. This debate of Sola Scriptura is very interesting. For 36 years as a Catholic, I didn’t even care to know about other denominations.

 

[DARichards]

believers:

I’m not in agreement or disagreement as of yet. I’m still trying to learn from both sides. However, I’m not a non-denom because of “Sola Scripture”. I explained why in another thread of which you are aware. This debate of Sola Scriptura is very interesting. For 36 years as a Catholic, I didn’t even care to know about other denominations.

I don’t want to repeat myself either, but if you read any of my earlier posts, you will realize that I am your flip opposite. I spent 32 years in the NonDenominational Church, moved, spent the past 4years in the Reformed Presbyterian Church, and in the past year had MAJOR problems trying to justify the Sola Scriptura Doctrine. Now I will be received into the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil… I truly feel as though I have come Home.

I have enjoyed our engaging conversations, and look forward to more. Good evening…

 

[believers]

DARichards:

I don’t want to repeat myself either, but if you read any of my earlier posts, you will realize that I am your flip opposite. I spent 32 years in the NonDenominational Church, moved, spent the past 4years in the Reformed Presbyterian Church, and in the past year had MAJOR problems trying to justify the Sola Scriptura Doctrine. Now I will be received into the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil… I truly feel as though I have come Home.

I have enjoyed our engaging conversations, and look forward to more. Good evening…

Yes, I too have enjoyed our conversations. I know your somewhat new to the RCC. It appears you’re on your way to become formerly “Catechized.” I’m sure we’ll have more discussion in the future. I’m glad that you have found your home my Catholic brother.

 

[SemperJase]

DARichards:

Now I will be received into the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil… I truly feel as though I have come Home.

I’m like you DAR. I was only confirmed last Easter after spending the first 35 years of my life in a “non-denominational” church.

Believers,
You asked me a quesiton but DAR’s reply was just what I was thinking. The points to Jesus. That is why it is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction…

 

[Giver]

MariaG:

Hi Giver,

Problem for you is this. While technically a “revert”, (ie baptized as an infant), I was not raised in the Catholic Church.

I came to the truth that the Catholic Church teaches all truth through Scripture alone and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

God’s inspired word tells us that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”.

So if the Church, even if it was earlier than 300ad or after 1400, fell into error, it is no longer a pillar and foundation of truth. If the Church is no longer a pillar and foundation of truth is, scripture cannot be the inspired word of God. If scripture is not the inspired word of God, why be a Christian?

The Church cannot fall into error or it makes Scripture a lie.

God Bless,
Maria

The Church isn’t made up of just the Church hierarchy. All Christians, who are living the Word of God, are the Church. So when one member of the Church gets out of order the others bring them back in order, or God will send them a prophet. Paul brought Peter back in order. John was told by God (Revelations) to bring the seven Churches back in order.

Now saying the Roman Catholic Church is the one and only true church may be right, but there are a great number of Christians that don’t believe that to be true. Personally I wouldn’t want to trust my soul to the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings. There are too many places where their teachings don’t abide by scripture.

Now how can a person go wrong by taking everything that is said about God to Jesus to see if it is right or wrong?

(John 10:16) “And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.” (John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

 

[DARichards]

Giver:

The Church isn’t made up of just the Church hierarchy. All Christians, who are living the Word of God, are the Church. So when one member of the Church gets out of order the others bring them back in order, or God will send them a prophet. Paul brought Peter back in order. John was told by God (Revelations) to bring the seven Churches back in order.

Now saying the Roman Catholic Church is the one and only true church may be right, but there are a great number of Christians that don’t believe that to be true. Personally I wouldn’t want to trust my soul to the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings. There are too many places where their teachings don’t abide by scripture.

Please don’t take offense at this, Giver, but this is your opinion that is only based on how **you ** or your denominationpersonally interprets and reads Scripture. That is the sole reason that Christ established ONE church and gave them the authority to determine what is the correct interpretation of Scripture. The foundation of the Catholic is a three legged stool comprised of: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium.

Giver:

Now how can a person go wrong by taking everything that is said about God to Jesus to see if it is right or wrong?

Not that it is wrong, but how do you determine if what you have heard from Jesus is actually the Holy Spirit, or yourself. That is where Sacred Tradition comes into play. What has the Church taught on this issue, or Scripture for years past. Remember, there is no more new Spiritual truths to be revealed.

 

[Philthy]

believers:

SemperJase,

Just to get a better perspective of the Catholic interpretation, could you please list a few verses in the Old Testament that “make [us] wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”?

Here are 2 off the top of my head:

Proverbs 1:7 “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”

Isaiah 53-6 “We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; but the Lord laid upon him the guilt of us all.”

Struggle as you may to convince a biblically knowledgeable person of the sola scriptura doctrine through 2Tim 3:16 you will fail for a variety of reasons.
One reason is that most of Pauls writings were specifically for the purpose of instruction based on his Apostolic authority and not on the claim that his letters were “Scripture” - only tangentially and nonspecifically was that latter claim made, and it was done by…Peter.
A second reason -and my favorite- is that Paul specifically tells us that Timothy “knows the sacred scriptures” yet this is not enough for appropriate conduct in the Church, for Paul says, “I am writing…so that you may know how to behave in the Church…” and he then goes on to describe the Church as the “pillar and foundation of Truth” There is more than what Scripture reveals - and the Church is to reveal it.

 

[Giver]

DARichards:

Please don’t take offense at this, Giver, but this is your opinion that is only based on how you or your denominationpersonally interprets and reads Scripture. That is the sole reason that Christ established ONE church and gave them the authority to determine what is the correct interpretation of Scripture. The foundation of the Catholic is a three legged stool comprised of: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium.

Not that it is wrong, but how do you determine if what you have heard from Jesus is actually the Holy Spirit, or yourself. That is where Sacred Tradition comes into play. What has the Church taught on this issue, or Scripture for years past. Remember, there is no more new Spiritual truths to be revealed.

Jesus told us we would hear his voice and the Holy Spirit would teach us. Yet when I say I have heard his voice and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit teach me, people keep saying how can I know that it is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Well God teaches love. God teaches us to live his Word. Also I personally have been given some gifts of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus has healed one daughter from blindness, another from cancer, plus other healings over the years. I know the power to heal didn’t come from me no more than the teaching I have been given came from me. I have been taught to live a sinless life. Jesus told me he is God and he also told me the Bible is his Word.

Now Satan tells us to love ourselves, and the pleasures of this world. Satan would never teach us to love or would he ever teach us to live sinless life.

My wife knows Jesus voice and she has heard Satan’s voice, she would tell you there is no mistaking one from the other.