Sola Scriptura--now I get

[Giver]

Philthy:

Here are 2 off the top of my head:

Proverbs 1:7 “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”

Isaiah 53-6 “We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; but the Lord laid upon him the guilt of us all.”

Struggle as you may to convince a biblically knowledgeable person of the sola scriptura doctrine through 2Tim 3:16 you will fail for a variety of reasons.
One reason is that most of Pauls writings were specifically for the purpose of instruction based on his Apostolic authority and not on the claim that his letters were “Scripture” - only tangentially and nonspecifically was that latter claim made, and it was done by…Peter.
A second reason -and my favorite- is that Paul specifically tells us that Timothy “knows the sacred scriptures” yet this is not enough for appropriate conduct in the Church, for Paul says, “I am writing…so that you may know how to behave in the Church…” and he then goes on to describe the Church as the “pillar and foundation of Truth” There is more than what Scripture reveals - and the Church is to reveal it.

(John 14:26)
“but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

St. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(John 16:4-10)”I did not tell you this from the outset, because I was with you; but now I am going to the one who sent me. Not one of you has asked, ‘Where are you going?’ Yet you are sad at heart because I have told you this. Still, I must tell you the truth: it is for your own good that I am going because unless I go, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will show the world how wrong it was, about sin, and about who was in the right, and about judgement; about sin: proved by their refusal to believe in me; proved by my going to the Father and your seeing me no more; About judgement”

(John 14:26) “but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”
Giver
(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

 

[DARichards]

Giver:

Jesus told us we would hear his voice and the Holy Spirit would teach us. Yet when I say I have heard his voice and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit teach me, people keep saying how can I know that it is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Well God teaches love. God teaches us to live his Word. Also I personally have been given some gifts of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus has healed one daughter from blindness, another from cancer, plus other healings over the years. I know the power to heal didn’t come from me no more than the teaching I have been given came from me. I have been taught to live a sinless life. Jesus told me he is God and he also told me the Bible is his Word.

Now Satan tells us to love ourselves, and the pleasures of this world. Satan would never teach us to love or would he ever teach us to live sinless life.

My wife knows Jesus voice and she has heard Satan’s voice, she would tell you there is no mistaking one from the other.

I believe** all ** that you have said and I also believe that you have heard from the Holy Spirit and that Our Lord speaks to you. My point that I was making was that in certain cases we sometimes don’t know what is the Lord and what is ourselves. There is sometimes a confusion… It is in these situations, especially in the interpretation of Scripture that the Traditions of the Church come into play. Far beit for me to trust my own understanding in interpreting what God means in certain situations in His Word. I would rather rely on what He has shown the Church in the past, and build on that foundation rather than my own.

 

[Philthy]

Giver:
(John 14:26)

St. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 2:13-14)

(John 14:26) “Giver
(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “

I see you find time to type all these verses, but not a spair second to reply to my 3rd request to address the remaining issues I wished to discuss with you(Posts 212 and 283) - oh well. We all have things to hide.
I also see that you are back to your verse slinging without saying you mean - this is pretty useless. Just so you have a perspective on how incoherent your post appears, I will tell you how my logic center sees it:

• A discussion on 2Tim chapter 3 begins with the insinuation that it demonstrates sola scriptura
• A rebuttal is offered by a Catholic saying it falls short of that and really only applies to the OT
• The nonCatholic counters that this is nonsense and that the OT doesn’t “make us wise unto Salvation in Christ” and asks for examples of OT Scripture that do.
• I provide 2 examples that I think apply and also give a discussion of 2 reasons sola scriptura seems unreasonable
• You then quote my post and provide a list of verses - some Paul, some not - all NT, and not one addressing sola scriptura directly or even about writing and you don’t comment on them, apparently expecting them to explain themselves - its quite ridiculous really.

 

[MariaG]

Giver:

The Church isn’t made up of just the Church hierarchy. All Christians, who are living the Word of God, are the Church. So when one member of the Church gets out of order the others bring them back in order, or God will send them a prophet. Paul brought Peter back in order. John was told by God (Revelations) to bring the seven Churches back in order.

Now saying the Roman Catholic Church is the one and only true church may be right, but there are a great number of Christians that don’t believe that to be true. Personally I wouldn’t want to trust my soul to the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings. There are too many places where their teachings don’t abide by scripture.

Now how can a person go wrong by taking everything that is said about God to Jesus to see if it is right or wrong?

(John 10:16) “And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.” (John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

Giver,

We can see in Acts as well as other places in the NT that a Church hierachy was being put into place. We can also see in scripture where we are supposed to “take it to the Church” if divisions arise within. And further, we have warnings of false prophets and those who will come along teaching a false gospel.

So what do I know from Scripture?

That there was a structure and a visible Church, a church that could hand down decisions on disputes withing the body of Christ.

That God promises that Church will be a pillar and foundation of truth.

That I need to beware of those who come along and teach otherwise. Those whose faith is not strong enough to believe in the promises of God about His Church. False prophets who would try to lead others astray.

I have tested what The Catholic Church teaches. And the Holy spirit has led me straight into the folds of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

[Philthy]

Giver:

The Church isn’t made up of just the Church hierarchy. All Christians, who are living the Word of God, are the Church.

Too vague as usual. All who God judges as members are members, period. To be a member? Repent and be baptized.

Giver:

So when one member of the Church gets out of order the others bring them back in order,

Honestly, what planet are you from? Are you not aware of all the “out of order” Christians? Guess what - they don’t respect the authority of ANYONE claiming to be THE CHURCH. Rather than humble themselves, they form their own church and give it a new name or they avoid all named churches and call themselves non-denominational.

Giver:

… or God will send them a prophet.
Paul brought Peter back in order. John was told by God (Revelations) to bring the seven Churches back in order.

I think most refer to them as Apostles, not prophets. Dont delude yourself by placing yourself in the same category.

Giver:

Now saying the Roman Catholic Church is the one and only true church may be right

There is hope for you!

Giver:

, but there are a great number of Christians that don’t believe that to be true.

Yes, and Im sure that all the church needs to do is “bring them back in order” and they will all follow willingly.

Giver:

Personally I wouldn’t want to trust my soul to the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings. There are too many places where their teachings don’t abide by scripture.

Well that is debateable and athough I admit others have articulated that position well - you have not, and to continue to make that claim unsubtantiated by a single reasonable argument is a violation of the word of God to not bear false witness. It seems to me that in this respect you are “out of order” .

Giver:

Now how can a person go wrong by taking everything that is said about God to Jesus to see if it is right or wrong?

I dont believe we have one verse of Scripture where someone says something ABOUT God TO Jesus. And even if there were, they could go wrong by misinterpreting what was said, how it should applied in specific situations, whether or not the situation they are actually in is applicable, etc, etc etc… like this next verse you quote:

(John 10:16) “And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.” (John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

 

[geno75]

Philthy:

(John 10:16) “And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.” (John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

Amen, brother. Jesus is the one and only shepard and wore a crown of thorns among us.

Not like the line of men that sits in Rome that over the years have worn tripled crown tiaras. What were they thinking!

Men on earth that wear crowns of gold and jewels on their head in the church of Jesus Christ is blasphemy. There is still harvesting to do for our Father in heaven.

 

[AquinasXVI]

geno75:
Not like the line of men that sits in Rome that over the years have worn tripled crown tiaras. What were they thinking!

.

Do you even know what the miter with the 3 crowns symbolize…do you know what the miter with two points sybolize?

 

[Philthy]

geno75:
Amen, brother. Jesus is the one and only shepard and wore a crown of thorns among us.

Not like the line of men that sits in Rome that over the years have worn tripled crown tiaras. What were they thinking!

Men on earth that wear crowns of gold and jewels on their head in the church of Jesus Christ is blasphemy. There is still harvesting to do for our Father in heaven.

Not that we are capapble of judging others, but my guess is that if we looked at the lives of those men and compared them to your life and mine in light of the Gospel, that we would look pretty bad. I dont think wearing a crown is a sin and it is certainly not blasphemy. Let me know if you need to borrow my tweezers for the splinter…

 

[Eden]

An article on the mitre:

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9203cust.asp

Excerpt:

There are a few mentions of miters among early Church writers. Tertullian, writing about 220 in his De corona, refers to crowned apostles, evangelists, and bishops. The apostles James and John were said to have worn a headdress like that of the high priests of the Old Testament.

Eusebius, in his History of the Church (III, 31), speaks about the apostle John and says “Again there is John, who leant back on the Lord’s breast, and who became a priest wearing the miter.” James appears to have worn a priest’s miter, according to Epiphanius and Hegesippus.

 

[DARichards]

geno75:

Amen, brother. Jesus is the one and only shepard and wore a crown of thorns among us.

Not like the line of men that sits in Rome that over the years have worn tripled crown tiaras. What were they thinking!

Men on earth that wear crowns of gold and jewels on their head in the church of Jesus Christ is blasphemy. There is still harvesting to do for our Father in heaven.

So you are saying that the Old Testament Priests were also blasphemous in their wearing of gold and jewels on their heads??

 

[kujo313]

maryj:

I asked this question in #10 post, I’ll ask again… Or incorrect?? I have read all of the posts in this thread, you have not addressed this except to tell us that we must “test”. How will you know if you are wrong with an interpretation, are you saying that you will never be wrong, or there is no wrong interpretations? And I know I’ll have to test your answer, but if you are finding the answer only for yourself how will I know to test it?? So if there is no “who” please explain Isiah 59:21 Isiah prophesies the promise of a “living voice” to hand on the word of God to “generations” by mouth, not by written word. I await your answer.

There are many parts of the same Body of Christ withing His Church. Christ is the Head of the Body.
If the church I attend sees the poor and puts alot of effort in feeding and clothing them, how can you tell that church that it is wrong for not supporting missions like your church does?
Different churches with different missions. All complenting the whole Body of Christ. The hand is being a hand, the foot is being a foot. Both of them are different but both work for the Body.

The church I attend has a Lighthouse: food bank, clothing bank, soup kitchen and warming center. No other churches of any denomination around us can do all that. Instead, they help us with donations and volunteers.
Denominations involved: Penticostal, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Salvation Army. Overall, there are at least 13 churches from at least 5 different cities helping feed and clothe the needy and shelter the homeless from the cold.

Different denominations and churches say their foundation is in the Bible and list different verses. If you put them together: one prays, one reaches, one teaches and, yet, another edifies.

Just don’t think that the “truth” you follow is better than the “truth” others follow if both have their foundation in the Word.

 

[AquinasXVI]

kujo313:

Just don’t think that the “truth” you follow is better than the “truth” others follow if both have their foundation in the Word.

I don’t think anyone of us has any problems with battling social issues-actually we need to do more together on this like the Pro-Life movement. But that’s not the topic of this thread.

Regarding your quote here, the problem is that TRUTH by virtue of itself is singular. Truth cannot contradict itself. So when we have two people calling themselves christians yet have different ideas on morality, theology, escathology etc. then either both of them are wrong or one of them is right. But both cannot be completely correct. That’s just your garden variety relativism.

By the way, the two points on the miter (bishop’s hat) signify the WORD OF GOD in the Old Testament and the New testament.

God bless.

in XT.

 

[DARichards]

kujo313:

There are many parts of the same Body of Christ withing His Church. Christ is the Head of the Body.
If the church I attend sees the poor and puts alot of effort in feeding and clothing them, how can you tell that church that it is wrong for not supporting missions like your church does?
Different churches with different missions. All complenting the whole Body of Christ. The hand is being a hand, the foot is being a foot. Both of them are different but both work for the Body.

The church I attend has a Lighthouse: food bank, clothing bank, soup kitchen and warming center. No other churches of any denomination around us can do all that. Instead, they help us with donations and volunteers.
Denominations involved: Penticostal, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Salvation Army. Overall, there are at least 13 churches from at least 5 different cities helping feed and clothe the needy and shelter the homeless from the cold…

Kujo,

Please don’t misunderstand me, but you didn’t answer the question. The question was:

maryj:

I asked this question in #10 post, I’ll ask again… Or incorrect?? I have read all of the posts in this thread, you have not addressed this except to tell us that we must “test”. How will you know if you are wrong with an interpretation, are you saying that you will never be wrong, or there is no wrong interpretations? And I know I’ll have to test your answer, but if you are finding the answer only for yourself how will I know to test it?? So if there is no “who” please explain Isiah 59:21 Isiah prophesies the promise of a “living voice” to hand on the word of God to “generations” by mouth, not by written word. I await your answer.

I am thrilled beyond measure that your church is teaming up with all these other churches to follow the Lord’s command, but that doesn’t answer the question on HOW WILL YOU KNOW IF YOU ARE WRONG WITH AN INTERPRETATION, OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU WILL NEVER BE WRONG, OR IS THERE NO WRONG INTERPRETATION…Just because you are meeting the outward good works, does not meant that you are right…just look at Matthew 7:

21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’

kujo313:

Different denominations and churches say their foundation is in the Bible and list different verses. If you put them together: one prays, one reaches, one teaches and, yet, another edifies.

Just don’t think that the “truth” you follow is better than the “truth” others follow if both have their foundation in the Word.

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that our “truth is better than your church’s truth”, but we do teach that due to the gift of the Infallibility of the Church that we do possess the fullness of the Truth of the Christian church

 

[mumof5]

Sola Scriptura is not about interpreting it yourself. It’s about the sufficiency of scripture. i.e. everything is in the Bible! No need for anything extra. Like manmade rules and catechisms (which have extra-biblical stuff).

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

Sola Scriptura is not about interpreting it yourself. It’s about the sufficiency of scripture. i.e. everything is in the Bible! No need for anything extra. Like manmade rules and catechisms (which have extra-biblical stuff).

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is sufficient?

The Traditions of the Church are also the Word of God.

 

[cafengocmy]

Angainor:

Indeed. Who is to say?

This is, of course, why I’m Protestant. Protestants don’t acknowledge a “who” which says which interpretations are correct.

It seems to me that the doctrine of sola scriptura coupled with private judgment must render all but one as heretics as no two people will interpret the Bible quite the same way except those who simply accept the interpretation of another, but then those ones are not excercising private judgment and are accepting the authority of another, looking to another for guidance instead of sola scriptura…

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is sufficient?

The Traditions of the Church are also the Word of God.

Yet the Bible, at the end, condemns anyone who adds to what is contained there-in. Hmmmm.

 

[montanaman]

mumof5:

Yet the Bible, at the end, condemns anyone who adds to what is contained there-in. Hmmmm.

Technically, the verse you refer to in Revelation refers only to that book, not the entire Bible. The “Bible” didn’t even exist at the time John wrote those lines.

Nonetheless, the Church would agree that nothing can be added or subtracted from the deposit of faith. Protestants have forgotten that and have added things like “the Bible alone” and even tried to subtract whole books. As for doctrines, however, they’ve added and subtracted plenty of the last five centuries. You know, things like “Baptism is only a symbol,” or “faith alone.”

No serious Christian can possibly deny that all tradition is condemned when Paul says to hold fast to it 2 Thess 2:15.

 

[kujo313]

DARichards:

Kujo,

Please don’t misunderstand me, but you didn’t answer the question. The question was:

I am thrilled beyond measure that your church is teaming up with all these other churches to follow the Lord’s command, but that doesn’t answer the question on HOW WILL YOU KNOW IF YOU ARE WRONG WITH AN INTERPRETATION, OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU WILL NEVER BE WRONG, OR IS THERE NO WRONG INTERPRETATION…Just because you are meeting the outward good works, does not meant that you are right…just look at Matthew 7:

21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that our “truth is better than your church’s truth”, but we do teach that due to the gift of the Infallibility of the Church that we do possess the fullness of the Truth of the Christian church

No “church” on earth is “infallible” but they do try to follow an “infallible” God. The “fruit” of what I say can be shown in the sex abuses of the Catholic Priests towards innocent children. I am NOT saying that any denomination is innocent; there are guilty people everywhere.
Now, back to the “interpretation” issue.
First, it must be backed-up by the Word of God. Second, if it’s not of God, it will not stand.
We both know that Jesus taught us to feed the poor, clothe the naked, and house the homeless. That does not make any one church greater than another. (remember that a hand should not try to be a foot, etc.)
If one church IS doing the work of God, leave it alone. Even if it is God-approved, it might not be where God wants you to be. Remember, some are called to be missionaries, others are called to stay back and pray.

 

[montanaman]

Originally Posted by Angainor
Indeed. Who is to say?

This is, of course, why I’m Protestant. Protestants don’t acknowledge a “who” which says which interpretations are correct.

And that’s why you play Russian roulette with your salvation. When a Protestant sect merely says “Meh” when it comes to the efficacy of something like baptism, it runs the risk of being wrong.

I’m beginning to realize that Protestants who have such a cavalier attitude toward what’s true or not really don’t care. Arrogance has blinded them. Possibly to their own damnation. That doesn’t seem to matter much to them, and well, you reap what you sow, I guess.