Sola Scriptura Question, Aimed Especially at Lutherans

[JonNC]

I really think that you should return to the topic of the thread which by the way is Sola Scriptura, and is AIMED especially at Lutherans…

If you want to discuss SSM, I think you should do that in another thread.

I traced the mention of SSM and your polemical link of it to Luther in post 434
where you state:

In fact, Luther’s assault against the Christian Sacrament of marriage has had reached it’s ‘logical conclusion’ in a decision by the Supreme Court that nobody could justify from Scripture or Christian Tradition.

Of course some people will be shocked and offended by my connection between Martin Luther and the recent Supremes decision on SSM. I am not alone in recognizing that connection. No less a Catholic luminary than Michael Voris made the exact same point in his daily video report on July 2nd, albeit much more forcefully and eloquently than I have here. Naturally it will be pointed out that Voris does not employ the ‘new Catholic approach to Evangelicals’, which is code for that he is far too honest and blunt.

While I continue to walk the thread backward, it seems, from what I can find, that it was you who brought up SSM and the SCOTUS first, as usual.

That said, I don’t think anyone here is shocked by your anti-Luther, anti-Lutheran polemics anymore.

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I traced the mention of SSM and your polemical link of it to Luther in post 434
where you state:

While I continue to walk the thread backward, it seems, from what I can find, that it was you who brought up SSM and the SCOTUS first, as usual.

That said, I don’t think anyone here is shocked by your anti-Luther, anti-Lutheran polemics anymore.

Jon

As they say in fencing; “Touche, Touche” Jon

I hope to engage more on the OP topic after the clashing of swords cease.
Peace be with you

 

[JonNC]

=Topper17;13146669]Since you have chosen to ‘address’ my ‘intent’, please allow me to make it very clear.

I will oppose Lutheranism for as long as it officially teaches that the Pope is the Antichrist, and that I, personally, am an ‘adherent’. I will also oppose it as long as your supposedly authoritative documents speak of the Mass as being something diabolical.

You have done nothing at CAF to oppose Lutheranism. You have only incited a divisive atmosphere between Lutherans and Catholics here at CAF. You have never, even when prompted by Catholics, offered any alternative to Lutheran teaching, rarely mentioning anything Catholic at all.
On this thread alone, Commenter and Gabriel of 12 have stated their opposition to SS, but instead of just regurgitating ultra-offensive polemics, they offer the Catholic alternative, as have others.

If you really want to heal the division between our communions, then first work within yours to have those irresponsible statements withdrawn from your confessional documents.

Perhaps you should instead listen to your Catholic leadership about how the healing of the rifts between our communions must take place. As we’ve discussed numerous times, true dialogue will not take the approach that progressives usually wish - “you retract your views, while we say what we want.” That seems to be your approach. Fortunately for both of our communions, you are simply an anonymous internet poster, and not actually in charge.

My intent is to reveal Lutheranism, and Protestantism overall, to be exactly what CA has deemed it is. If revealing the historical facts about the ‘early Reformation’, (Luther’s Revolt) show Lutheranism and greater Protestantism to be what CA has proclaimed them to be, then so be it. It appears that you agree that they do.

You have revealed nothing, except a level of hostility one rarely finds at CAF.

Anglican scholar James Atkinson wrote some thirty years ago:

“All that could be said against Luther has been said, full measure and running over. There is not a slur left in the murky field of slander that could be hurled against him; there is not a further epithet left to destroy his character.; there is not a further error or heresy left to be leveled against him as a theologian.
…we have briefly sketched the process through four and a half centuries, a negative process that has led nowhere: it has not enhanced the Catholic perpetrators, nor has it done the Protestant sufferers any good. It has bred intolerance, fanaticism, and hostility, and created in turn hatred, invective, and division. It has almost destroyed the Christianity both sides love, long to experience, and yearn to give to the world.”

…
“Catholic scholarship is now far, far removed from the bitter invective of Cochlaeus and his fellows of the sixteenth century, which eclipsed the sensitive and understanding theology of Staupitz, von Wied, von Gropper, Contarini, and all the other less famous, as well as those who saw Luther as ‘an instrument of providence’ and ‘a rod from God to the Church’s back’; it is far, far removed from the odious scholarship of Denifle or a Grisar and their fellows of the twentieth century. It has moved into a new way of reassessing Luther by the historical and theological studies of scholars … notably, by men such as Lortz, Herte, Hessen, and Sartory…” - Martin Luther Prophet to the Church Catholic

All that you have “revealed” was long ago “revealed”. Lutherans have long-since known of Luther’s flaws, and by your own posts, have written about them extensively. But these flaws were not somehow hidden from view prior to recently. As Atkinson points out, its all been out there, the good, the bad, the half truths,the falsehoods.
You are fond of telling me that I give Luther too little credit. You seem to give yourself far too much credit. I certainly don’t.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

As they say in fencing; “Touche, Touche” Jon

I hope to engage more on the OP topic after the clashing of swords cease.
Peace be with you

As do I, my friend.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

You have done nothing at CAF to oppose Lutheranism. You have only incited a divisive atmosphere between Lutherans and Catholics here at CAF. You have never, even when prompted by Catholics, offered any alternative to Lutheran teaching, rarely mentioning anything Catholic at all.
On this thread alone, Commenter and Gabriel of 12 have stated their opposition to SS, but instead of just regurgitating ultra-offensive polemics, they offer the Catholic alternative, as have others.

Perhaps you should instead listen to your Catholic leadership about how the healing of the rifts between our communions must take place. As we’ve discussed numerous times, true dialogue will not take the approach that progressives usually wish - “you retract your views, while we say what we want.” That seems to be your approach. Fortunately for both of our communions, you are simply an anonymous internet poster, and not actually in charge.

You You You, and Topper is the topic again. Just put him on ignore, Jon
Good grief

Mary.
You have revealed nothing, except a level of hostility one rarely finds at CAF.

Anglican scholar James Atkinson wrote some thirty years ago:

All that you have “revealed” was long ago “revealed”. Lutherans have long-since known of Luther’s flaws, and by your own posts, have written about them extensively. But these flaws were not somehow hidden from view prior to recently. As Atkinson points out, its all been out there, the good, the bad, the half truths,the falsehoods.
You are fond of telling me that I give Luther too little credit. You seem to give yourself far too much credit. I certainly don’t.

Jon

 

[qui_est_ce]

As they say in fencing; “Touche, Touche” Jon

I hope to engage more on the OP topic after the clashing of swords cease.
Peace be with you

You have done nothing at CAF to oppose Lutheranism. You have only incited a divisive atmosphere between Lutherans and Catholics here at CAF. You have never, even when prompted by Catholics, offered any alternative to Lutheran teaching, rarely mentioning anything Catholic at all.
On this thread alone, Commenter and Gabriel of 12 have stated their opposition to SS, but instead of just regurgitating ultra-offensive polemics, they offer the Catholic alternative, as have others.

Perhaps you should instead listen to your Catholic leadership about how the healing of the rifts between our communions must take place. As we’ve discussed numerous times, true dialogue will not take the approach that progressives usually wish - “you retract your views, while we say what we want.” That seems to be your approach. Fortunately for both of our communions, you are simply an anonymous internet poster, and not actually in charge.

You have revealed nothing, except a level of hostility one rarely finds at CAF.

Anglican scholar James Atkinson wrote some thirty years ago:

All that you have “revealed” was long ago “revealed”. Lutherans have long-since known of Luther’s flaws, and by your own posts, have written about them extensively. But these flaws were not somehow hidden from view prior to recently. As Atkinson points out, its all been out there, the good, the bad, the half truths,the falsehoods.
You are fond of telling me that I give Luther too little credit. You seem to give yourself far too much credit. I certainly don’t.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

As they say in fencing; “Touche, Touche” Jon

I hope to engage more on the OP topic after the clashing of swords cease.
Peace be with you

No kidding.

Ignore is your friend instead of becoming equally hostile as a poster one deems hostile to your Faith.

Mary.

 

[steido01]

No kidding.

Ignore is your friend instead of becoming equally hostile as a poster one deems hostile to your Faith.

Mary.

To Jon’s credit, his posts have not been hostile at all. He has been patient, graceful and honest.

 

[MaryT777]

To Jon’s credit, his posts have not been hostile at all. He has been patient, graceful and honest.

Not that you’re biased…
I disagree

Mary.

 

[qui_est_ce]

To Jon’s credit, his posts have not been hostile at all. He has been patient, graceful and honest.

I agree.

 

[MaryT777]

As long as someone is posting within forum guidelines they are entitled to their opinion.

That someone may or may not like what someone posts doesn’t really matter quite frankly
.

Enough said.

Mary.

 

[JonNC]

As long as someone is posting within forum guidelines they have the right and are entitled to their opinion. All posters have this same “right” for lack of a better word.

That someone may or may not like what someone posts doesn’t really matter quite frankly
.

Enough said.

Mary.

Who is stopping someone from posting?
That someone may or may not like what someone post does matter. Hence, there will be responses, just like yours to Gabriel’s, and Don’s to yours, and Christine’s to Don’s.

It isn’t a right, though. It is a privilege granted to all posters by CAF.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Thank you Don, Christine, and Gabriel.

Jon

 

[commenter]

To Jon’s credit, his posts have not been hostile at all. He has been patient, graceful and honest.

Yes he has. And informative.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Yes he has.** And informative**.

This too.

 

[spedteacherita]

To Jon’s credit, his posts have not been hostile at all. He has been patient, graceful and honest.

I agree as well. Jon’s posts have given me information not only related to Lutheranism but also of Catholicism. I’ve learned about both (and that includes positive info about Catholicism) from him.

:newidea:

Blessings, all!!

Rita

 

[GKC]

To Jon’s credit, his posts have not been hostile at all. He has been patient, graceful and honest.

I agree.

 

[Picky_Picky]

To Jon’s credit, his posts have not been hostile at all. He has been patient, graceful and honest.

As he always is, it seems to me.

 

[MaryT777]

I agree as well. Jon’s posts have given me information not only related to Lutheranism but also of Catholicism. I’ve learned about both (and that includes positive info about Catholicism) from him.

:newidea:

Blessings, all!!

Rita

LOL. That’s wonderful you are learning some “positive” things about Catholicism from a Confessional Lutheran. There’s certainly not much of that in the official Confessions.

Mary.

 

[qui_est_ce]

LOL. That’s wonderful you are learning some “positive” things about Catholicism from a Confessional Lutheran. There’s certainly not much of that in the official Confessions.

Mary.

No need to get snarky.