That’s pretty ‘personal’ Jon, and I think, very revealing. As you know, when people opposed Luther, he demonized them and made it ALL ABOUT THEM. They HAD to be in league with Satan. The fact that they opposed Him absolutely proved that. He didn’t deal very well with opponents either and he also would not have been able to follow the rules about discussing the subject and not the poster either.
The fact of the matter is that Lutheranism has had a pretty poor record of ‘explaining the Truth’ about Martin Luther to Lutheran laity.
Several times I have asked you if you have read “There We Stood, Here We Stand” edited by Timothy Drake. This book (as you know) documents the conversion stories of 11 Lutherans who have converted to the Church.
You contend that the facts about Luther that I reveal have all been revealed before. It is true that Academic Lutheranism has been very honest about the man over the last 60 or so years. It was NOT prior to that. Furthermore, the honesty of Academic Lutheranism has not been reflected in the depiction of Luther that is STILL presented to the laity. The accounts of the Lutheran/Catholic converts make it very clear that the Luther they learned about at their churches is very different than the Luther of reality. As an example:
“……I was not a Catholic and never could be. I was part of the LCMS, and even as a child I was taught that while my church in many ways was very close to the Church of Rome, there were certain key points of doctrine on which we were deeply divided, and on these there could be no compromise……**I admired Martin Luther for standing up for what he believed, despite the danger. He was a hero; he was my hero, ‘Thank God’, I thought, ‘for Martin Luther, who brought truth to light. **Thank God that I am a Lutheran’. “From Missouri Synod to Magisterium”, Audrey Zech
First of all, Zech confirms that the LCMS will never compromise on matters of doctrine, which means that IF there is to be doctrinal agreement, it will come as a result of the Catholic Church giving in on doctrinal matters.
In addition, I would suggest that nobody could possibly consider Luther to be their “hero”, unless they were
completely unaware of his ‘lesser known’ teachings and actions, which are ‘lesser-known’ because when they become ‘better known’, people begin to question Luther as a ‘Reformer’, which then leads to questioning Reformation theology. As you know, many former Lutheran CA posters have mentioned that one of the key factors in their conversions was learning the Truth about Luther.
With regards to Sola Scriptura and it’s results in terms of denominalization: I have never seen a Lutheran make the following connection:
Martin Luther developed the concept of Sola Scriptura in the early 16th century. It had never been known as a Christian teaching previously. AND, Sola Scriptura has been largely responsible for the doctrinal dissension and confusion that has been the identifying.
Thus, Martin Luther has been responsible, to a large degree for Protestantism’s doctrinal dissension and confusion.
In my experience Jon, the above connection simply does not ‘compute’ for Lutherans, and in fact, when it does, they have no choice but to leave Lutheranism. The laity is not exposed to this line of argument. However, Lutheran Scholars are of course very much more prone to consider the relationship between Luther’s SS and it’s results. That is the reason, I think, that Lutheran Scholars convert to either Orthodoxy or Catholicism and much higher rates than Lutheran laity. The fact is that they are far better educated about the Real Luther than are Lutheran laity.
On this thread alone I have posted the quotes of dozens and dozens of Scholars, including many Lutherans which support my position. When I ask for comments about these quotes, what do I get Jon?
I want people to actually be informed about and to think about these things. It doesn’t seem to me that that Lutheranism overall does.
There’s certainly not much of that in the official Confessions.
Yes, I suppose it does seem ironic but, seriously, both Don and Jon have enlightened me in areas that have bothered me and explained doctrines that do not and will not have an impact on my eternal life. I am also learning more about our official Confessions - but in such a way that proves to me that we can disagree and debate without losing friendships. I realize that we all have issues as to how each faith’s confessions or teachings but, bottom line, we are Christians and must follow Christ’s example of interacting with others.