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steido01
Guest
Thread originally about Lutheranism becomes, yet again, thread about bashing Luther.
And so it goes.
And so it goes.
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pablope
Guest
But it is not just an opinion…he speaks of it as a fact…and even though an opinion…it is formed from something, somewhere…he did not come from it in a vacuum.
The author may not think he speaks infallably…but he just made an infallible statement…
As for his email address…jon…your thenone who quoted him and you believe what he wrote…otherwise, why cite/quote him?
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benjohnson
Guest
I can tell by your post that your “ignore poster” feature hasn’t been fully used and/or you’re a stronger man than me.
There’s only so much “Luther is bad! ctrl-v ctrl-v !!!” posts I could take.
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KjetilK
Guest
And I think al lot of things that probably aren’t true also.
ISTM that most people who state their opinion do so in a manner that sounds matter of fact.
The reason for mentioning an email is because you’d have to ask him if he thinks he’s infallible.
I do think he makes some good points, yes.
Jon
BTW, Pablope, I have often cited/quoted Cardinal Ratzinger / Pope Benedict, but that doesn’t mean I thought he was/is infallible.
Jon
Here is the OP.
I think the Lutherans here have responded to the questions of the post. I’d like to hear from any Reformed members of the forum on the topic.
Jon
How about “exactly and specifically”, Topper. Who, and in what way on the forum has “discouraged” anything being said about Martin Luther, within the rules of the forum?
This is factually untrue. You yourself have quoted often from numerous Lutheran writers who criticize Luther’s flaws. For you, having spent a year and a half here bashing Luther, using numerous Lutheran writers in the process is, frankly, laughable.
How many Catholics know about Eck’s book, Ains Juden-büechlins Verlegung?
A better question: why should they know about it? What value in modern Christian society do either of these books hold? How can either of these books help us to understand “exactly and specifically” the causes of the division between Lutherans and Catholics?
I have an idea, though: use the two books side by side, representative of the vile anti-Jewish sentiments widely held in central Europe at that time, as tools to teach both Catholics and Lutherans how hideous this sentiment is.
Jon
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MaryT777
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Seems to be a Lutheran “mortal sin” to say anything negative about Luther.
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GKC
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I’ve watched these exchanges here for years. I don’t think that is accurate.
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GKC
Guest
As I read the last few pages of posts, as Topper and Jon are interacting, my judgement of the exchange is that Topper is more strident and more prone to personalize the points, and Jon less so. To charge Jon with turning the thread to Topper’s method of exposition, and fault that, seems a case of “Cet animal est tres méchant; quand on l’attaque il se défend”. Other folk may see it in other ways, to be sure. But as to criticizing Luther, I have seen it done by folks from all persuasions, the Lutherans included.
I have almost no interest in Luther (as indicated by not owning more than 4-5 books on the man), but still find these threads worth reading, the more so when they stay more or less civil and focused on history.
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PRmerger
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Really? A lot of things you think probably aren’t true?
Wow.
I’m sure that I can say that most of the things I think are indeed true.
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KjetilK
Guest
Well, I think that my team will win. Of course me thinking that won’t make it happen. Just as your thoughts on sola scriptura aren’t true merely because you think them.
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, I don’t think things unless there’s some basis in reality for me to think them.
If I think my team will win, it’s because I think there’s some chance that they will.
You, however, have asserted that you think things that “probably aren’t true”…
That’s kind of a peculiar assertion to make, but, hey, knock yourself out.
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commenter
Guest
- Strident posts are self-defeating. Even if a strident post contains some useful data in para 1, the strident sentences in para 2 make the reader impervious to those good ideas in para 1. In fact, just by putting a good argument in the same post as your strident phrases (associating them) you weaken the value of that valid argument for all time.
- If you don’t know what stridency is, you’re probably strident.
- There is no value, none, in criticizing Luther. Non-Lutherans who have spent several hours reading up on Luther will probably not discover many details that life long Lutherans don’t already know; more important, those Lutherans know that you are ignorant of 1000 details they know. So anti-Luther research is worthless.
- Lutherans don’t worship Luther, they worship God. They know Luther wasn’t perfect in his morals and logical arguments, though they often have a deep respect for the man. They remain Lutherans today (IMHO) not mainly because of Luther, but because of their upbringing, marriage, current congregational life, prayer life, and reading stuff from the present or recent past, as well as Scripture.
- Lutherans today, like Christians generally, are in a kind of crisis due to evils related to secularism and mental confusion in the West. Some feel closer to a liberal or conservative orientation. Many, especially Confessional ones, have more interest or credibility in Catholicism than they used to, partly because of instability in once-stable denominations. Strident Catholics make them less able to hear the voice of, for instance, Mother Theresa or St. JP II.
- I am learning more about the positive features of Lutheranism and other traditions. None of this weakens my own belief in the long term necessity of the Magisterium, as a gift of love from God, more obviously necessary in 2015 than a generation ago.
- The main purpose of this forum is to help other posters get to Heaven. Readers have to like the poster, himself or herself, before they can benefit from the post. The longer your post, the more they have to feel that you like the reader, or else your post is worthless.
- I don’t have 4 - 5 books even on people I am interested in. He must have more storage space than I.
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AugustTherese
Guest
Whoa, whoa, whoa, let’s just back up a minute…
No one, at least to my knowledge, has judged or criticized the moral state or person of Martin Luther. I did not know the guy outside of his works and even if I did, I am in no position to try and understand exactly what or why Martin Luther was inclined to feel about himself and what he was experiencing at the time of his excommunication and the Reformation. If anything, the guy was almost supernaturally audacious and quite talented in his literary abilities.
However, that does not mean I or you cannot criticize the nature of his works and how it relates to his theology. I have been attacked, since my conversion, for the sinful actions of popes, the inquisitions, the crusades, etc. etc. and that is just fine! Because those are just that, sinful actions (insofar as it relates to the abuse or sinfulness within those periods). However, when one man, outside of a Church Council, introduces doctrines that were not revealed by Our Blessed Lord and/or practice by Him and His Apostles, and then substantiated by the crudeness and vulgarity within those works of that one man… anything that someone will say about his works will automatically come off as non-cordial or uncharitable to those who hold to his teachings. Because it seems almost paradoxical to mix charity with crudeness when having a discourse about his works, outside of who he actually was and inclined to acting such as.
My personal contention was that I found it revealing that all Luther teachers and pastors for my 25 years being a Lutheran, did not disclose any of this! Sure I can understand not wanting to even have a need to focus on the crude side of Luther. But what killed me, was that I had to find out there was such a thing as a Catholic Bible on my own. I found one digging through some things in a closet at my uncles house. I looked in it and discovered the 7 books of the OT that the Protestant Bible omits. Shocked doesn’t even begin to describe my feelings. Of course I got the ¨apocrypha¨ talk and that the RCC added them at the Council of Trent and that the Jews (all of them) did not consider them to be inspired. What was surprising, is why on earth would this not have been taught by anyone one of my 50+ Lutheran teachers, pastors, friends, parents etc. etc. ?!?! Because, to any Catholic, removing seven books of the OT is a huge deal and would be disclosed to avoid any confusion. But to Lutherans, it almost seemed like a secret or conspiracy, or what you don’t know cannot hurt you, so to speak. Then I realized what Luther wrote about the book of Esther, James, Jude, and Revelation and that pretty much sealed the deal for me. Not to mention he removed parts of Daniel and Esther, put James, Jude, Revelation, and Hebrews in an appendix next to his ¨apocrypha¨, and added the word ‘alone’ to Romans 3:28 - and it’s still in his Luther Bibel 1545 to this day!
With that being said, I hope to see Luther in heaven one day…it was rumored that he did want to receive Last Rites on his deathbed.
Eric
No one, at least to my knowledge, has judged or criticized the moral state or person of Martin Luther. I did not know the guy outside of his works and even if I did, I am in no position to try and understand exactly what or why Martin Luther was inclined to feel about himself and what he was experiencing at the time of his excommunication and the Reformation. If anything, the guy was almost supernaturally audacious and quite talented in his literary abilities.
However, that does not mean I or you cannot criticize the nature of his works and how it relates to his theology. I have been attacked, since my conversion, for the sinful actions of popes, the inquisitions, the crusades, etc. etc. and that is just fine! Because those are just that, sinful actions (insofar as it relates to the abuse or sinfulness within those periods). However, when one man, outside of a Church Council, introduces doctrines that were not revealed by Our Blessed Lord and/or practice by Him and His Apostles, and then substantiated by the crudeness and vulgarity within those works of that one man… anything that someone will say about his works will automatically come off as non-cordial or uncharitable to those who hold to his teachings. Because it seems almost paradoxical to mix charity with crudeness when having a discourse about his works, outside of who he actually was and inclined to acting such as.
My personal contention was that I found it revealing that all Luther teachers and pastors for my 25 years being a Lutheran, did not disclose any of this! Sure I can understand not wanting to even have a need to focus on the crude side of Luther. But what killed me, was that I had to find out there was such a thing as a Catholic Bible on my own. I found one digging through some things in a closet at my uncles house. I looked in it and discovered the 7 books of the OT that the Protestant Bible omits. Shocked doesn’t even begin to describe my feelings. Of course I got the ¨apocrypha¨ talk and that the RCC added them at the Council of Trent and that the Jews (all of them) did not consider them to be inspired. What was surprising, is why on earth would this not have been taught by anyone one of my 50+ Lutheran teachers, pastors, friends, parents etc. etc. ?!?! Because, to any Catholic, removing seven books of the OT is a huge deal and would be disclosed to avoid any confusion. But to Lutherans, it almost seemed like a secret or conspiracy, or what you don’t know cannot hurt you, so to speak. Then I realized what Luther wrote about the book of Esther, James, Jude, and Revelation and that pretty much sealed the deal for me. Not to mention he removed parts of Daniel and Esther, put James, Jude, Revelation, and Hebrews in an appendix next to his ¨apocrypha¨, and added the word ‘alone’ to Romans 3:28 - and it’s still in his Luther Bibel 1545 to this day!
With that being said, I hope to see Luther in heaven one day…it was rumored that he did want to receive Last Rites on his deathbed.
Eric
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benjohnson
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Thanks for your wise post!
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GKC
Guest
On people I am interested in, the number is roughly as many as I can find. On Chesterton, say, 250+, by or about. Estimated.
I have no storage space left. Including in the storage unit, with roughly 5-6 hundred 1.5/3.0 cubic foot book boxes in it. Or in the attic, the garage, the shed, and in the very house itself, where I can scarcely move. Been building to this for 60 years. An end must come.
Need to order a book tomorrow, though. Likely 2.
As I just asked Topper, Mary, who, and in what way, has prevented you, or Topper, or anyone, including me, from saying anything negative about Luther within the rules set out by the forum?
I’ll bet that Eric will not stop you and Topper from starting a thread where you post lots of negative stuff about Luther.
That way, an inquiry thread asking Lutherans and Reformed Christians about our view of sola scriptura can continue on topic.
Jon
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