Sola Scriptura Question, Aimed Especially at Lutherans

  • Thread starter Thread starter jinc1019
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sure we can. I’ve had countless conversations on this site with Catholics who actually want to discuss Lutheran teaching.
I don’t think we should discuss modern day Lutheran beliefs as if they have nothing to do with Martin Luther and his Revolt against the Church. You simply cannot skip past the way in which Luther claimed to have an authority to teach that was above that of the Church.
Luther approved the CA, but even that isn’t the point. I asked a few posts back if you knew of a communion prior to Lutheranism that practiced sola scriptura in a different way.
First of all, one of the problems that I have encountered over the years is that there is no consistent definition of the term Sola Scriptura. It seems that you are asking me to tilt at windmills. I will tell you this though - the better Theologians of his day warned Luther that his teachings on Scripture and its use would result in doctrinal confusion and dissension. Of course he scoffed at them and of course they were right.
Now, I frankly don’t care if you answer the question or not, since that’s not the intention of the thread, but there it is. Luther never used the term sola scriptura that I’m aware of, and even that doesn’t matter. The historical understanding of the practice of sola scriptura is as the FofC describes it. Others may use it differently. I can’t stop that, nor do I approve of it.
Charmed I’m sure Jon!:rolleyes:

As for the FofC, I am not at all inclined to view it as an ‘accomplishment’ in terms of Christian doctrine. It of course refers to the Pope as the antichrist and individual Catholics like me as ‘adherents’. What I have never understood is why Lutherans believe that the FofC is authoritative to any degree at all. Seriously, who were those guys and by what authority did they presume to have the right to start their own communion? What makes them and their teachings better than those of the Catholic Church?
Well, if you’re worried about his “personal revolt”, start a thread on it. Have fun.
Does this mean that you are discouraging me from posting information about Luther and Sola Scriptura here on this thread Jon? The fact is that the Lutheran Church would not stand for one of its Theologians, Scholars, or Professors revolted against its teachings. What was it that makes Luther’s revolt against the Catholic Church acceptable?
 
I’m not representing anything. Here’s what he says:
Last I heard, Mathison was, exactly and specifically, a Reformed scholar.
For the record Jon, Mathison is very clear about the relationship between Luther’s introduction of Sola Scriptura AND the fact that he was the ‘catalyst’ which caused the Western Church to explode.

If the early sixteenth century Western Church was in an unstable and volatile condition, Martin Luther was the catalyst that caused it to explode. His conflicts with Rome ignited what is called the Protestant Reformation. The concern here is with only one particular aspect of Luther’s thought – his view of Scripture and tradition, but it is almost impossible to understand why Luther said and did the things he did without some understanding of his personal background and the social and ecclesiastical context in which he found himself………He had been acutely depressed over the prospect of death since his youth……As he began to recite the first words of the mass, terror struck him as he realized his unworthiness to stand before the infinitely holy God………He would confess his sins daily, sometimes for periods as long as six hours, but his torment continued………

We find the first public hints of Luther’s concept of Sola Scriptura at the Leipzig debate between himself and John Eck.
At this debate Luther defended the proposition that Scripture was the supreme authority – above the pope and above councils. It was at the Diet of Worms, however, where Luther made his most famous speech regarding the authority of Scripture. After being challenged by the magistrates to repudiate his books and recant his views. Luther said:

“Since then Your Majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer without horns and teeth. Unless I am convicted to Scripture and plain reason – I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other – my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right or safe. God help me. Amen.” Keith Mathison, “The Shape of Sola Scriptura”, pg. 86-94

At this point I have to ask you Jon what you thought Mathison meant by the above when you read it in his book.

If a Reformed Scholar isn’t enough to prove the point, how about a Lutheran Scholar:

Luther was indeed one of ‘the Reformers,’ whose proposals triggered lasting schism in the Western church. Whether he would have pressed his convictions in quite the same way had he been able to look farther into the future, we cannot know. In any case, the aspects of Luther’s work over which the church divided – whatever they may in fact have been – have long since had their effect for good and ill.” Professor Robert Jenson, “Luther’s Contemporary Theological Significance”, in “Companion”, pg. 272-3

First of all, we see a Lutheran Professor stating that that it was Luther ‘whose proposals triggered lasting schism……”, which I think is quite an admission. It also brings out the point that it is acceptable, at least to Lutheran academics, to discuss Luther’s ‘role’ in the Western Schism. The question then becomes why it is not here on a Catholic Apologetics site.
The issue at hand isn’t yours to decide. The issue was the OP.
The following is a quote from the OP that you reference:
I’m trying to figure out if the tradition of the church plays ANY role at all in determining how scripture should be interpreted. Obviously one criticism of sola scriptura is that it eventually leads to a million different interpretations of the same text, with everyone in the debate insisting his or her own interpretation is the best.
The OP suggests that Sola Scriptura ‘eventually leads to a million different interpretations of the same text, with everyone in the debate insisting his or her own interpretation is the best”. That is exactly what Luther was warned against when he began teaching Sola Scriptura.

The role of Sola Scriptura in the division of Western Christendom is well understood, and of course, Luther’s responsibility for Sola Scriptura is also well known. As such, my posts are very much in keeping with the OP.

In addition, I have to say that I have never seen much at all in the way of complaints about following the OP unless Luther is being criticized/revealed.
The topic never was Luther. And it still isn’t you.
If the topic is Sola Scriptura and its role in doctrinal dissension, then the topic IS Luther.
 
Eric,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. The Sacramental Life of the Church draws many people to learn more and inquire further. I’m happy you have found your home in the Catholic Church and enjoy reading your posts.

I never got to welcome you to the forums, so here it is. Pleased to meet you and welcome.

:tiphat:

God love you, as well.

Peace in Christ,
Mary.
Awwww, thanks Mary! What a sweetheart you are. Keep the faith vibrant and on fire!
 
I’m not personally against infant baptism, although I was raised Baptist and wasn’t baptized until I was 13. But we can’t tell much from Acts 16:15 or other references in Scripture, none of which specifically mention infants being baptized. So it is still a matter of speculation as to whether the early Christians were doing this or not.
Scripture says “entire” households were baptized. That at least suggest if infants were present there were baptized. From that we can reasonably state that infant baptism is not prohibited.
 
Scripture says “entire” households were baptized. That at least suggest if infants were present there were baptized. From that we can reasonably state that infant baptism is not prohibited.
If I may also add to your good reading of scripture, baptism also replaced circumcision per Colossians 2:11–12

In Jewish households circumcision was done close after birth.
 
Ultimately, scripture
The confessions assert that “All truths necessary to salvation are stated in Holy Scripture”, and this is supposed to come from Scripture…but it doesn’t.

That should be a problem for Lutherans, don’t you think?
 
Why? The Church was established by Christ on Pentecost, and established it’s authority through the Power of the Keys. How do we know about that? Scripture.
We would say we know that through the Word of God, which comes to us through 2 channels: Scripture AND Tradition.
So, my question again is, what other source of truths are out there that are independent of scripture?
Well, I would say Sacred Tradition. The example I would give of something that we know that’s “independent of Scripture” would be the canon of the New Testament.

You don’t know what’s theopneustos, except through Sacred Tradition.
 
Hi GK,

Thanks for your response.
I, for one, would certainly enjoy seeing book titles and index reference by book page, for such a list of books. I have maybe 50+ titles on the Holocaust. I have not read them all, but do not recall either Luther or Eck getting much coverage, though I’d expect Luther to have a higher page count. I’d like to see (assuming we have any overlap in titles; the thrust of the bookss may be different) how such a thing works out.
I have three books that were written about Martin Luther’s dealings with the Jews. Two of them were written by Lutherans and the other was written by a man who was (at the time), a Fellow at the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

Lutheran Professor Eric W. Gritsch wrote “Martin Luther’s Anti-Semitism, Against His Better Judgement”. In this book, Gritsch had every opportunity to compare Eck’s Anti-Semitism with that of Martin Luther, thereby justifying somehow Luther’s horrific writings and actions. He does not. There is exactly one sentence about Eck:

“Luther’s famous Catholic opponent, John Eck, responded with “Refutation of a Jew-Book”, claiming that he had put his fingers into the wound of a child who was a victim of the Jewish ritual.” Pg. 27-28. Gritsch wrote nothing else.

Lutheran Professors Brooks Schramm and Kirsti I. Stjerna wrote “Martin Luther, The Bible, and the Jewish People”, which quotes and comments on 28 of Luther’s writings on the Jews. Unfortunately there is no index in this book but I do not remember any reference anywhere in the 200+ pages which refer to John Eck. They do though dispel the popular notion that Luther only turned against the Jews only when he was old and cranky:

**“A grim problem at the heart of Lutheran (and Protestant) origins, that of Luther and the Jews…… While efforts to absolve Luther as simply a man of his times – as one who merely passed on and perpetuated what he himself had already received from his cultural and theological tradition – have generally been jettisoned, there still persists even among the educated public the perception that the truly problematic aspects of Luther’s anti-Jewish attitudes are confined to the final stages of his career……Luther’s theological evaluation of Judiasm and the Jewish people remains essentially unchanged from the earliest stages of his career….**When one reads Luther with a careful eye toward ‘the Jewish question’ (and without a predisposition to exonerate him), it becomes apparent that, far from being tangential, the Jews are a central, core component of his thought and that this was the case throughout his career, not only at the end. If this is in fact so, then it follows that it is essentially impossible to understand the heart and building blocks of Luther’s theology (justification, faith, salvation, grace, freedom, Law, and Gospel, and so on) without acknowledging the crucial role played by ‘the Jews’ in his fundamental thinking.” Lutheran Professors Brooks Schramm and Kirsi, Stjerna, “Martin Luther, the Bible, and the Jewish People”, pg. 3-4

The authors point to the importance of understanding Luther’s beliefs about the Jews as a ‘core component of his thought’. Other authors have also pointed to the centrality of Luther’s beliefs on the Jews and its place in the whole of his theology.

Professor Christopher Probst wrote “Demonizing the Jews, Luther and the Protestant Church in Nazi Germany”. Suffice it to say that this book is full of shocking information, and that there is less than a page on Eck. This book is completely full of connections between Luther and the Holocaust.

Quite frankly, I have never seen a Scholar, including a Lutheran Scholar point to Eck and infer that what he wrote was in the same universe as what Luther wrote in terms of viciousness or impact on the Jews. The only place I have ever seen anything close to that is on a severely anti-Catholic (and pro-Luther) site, which is written from the perspective that Catholics are not Christians. Unfortunately, we sometimes see the ‘evidence’ from that site posted here as if it were unbiased facts, without of course, ANY of Eck’s text or any specifics of any kind - nothing but hollow inference. The claim that Eck’s anti-Semitism was as bad as Luther’s, or he did as much damage to the Jews as did Luther’s, does him a huge disservice. Of course, having defeated Luther at Leipzig, the most important debate in Christian history (but almost completely unknown in lay Protestantism), Eck has been vilified by Protestants and especially Lutherans for hundreds of years.

**“Eck….was perhaps the most feared disputant of the German academic world. Protestant historians have repaid Eck for the relentlessness with which he pursued Luther and his followers by four centuries of abuse.” **Robert Herndon Fife, “The Revolt of Martin Luther”, pg. 331

I see comparing Eck to Luther on this matter as being ‘abuse’. This is not to say that Eck’s sentiments on the Jews are to be admired. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I consider Richard Marius to be the best of all of Luther’s biographers. I agree with him that:

**“……it seems foolish and even immoral to seek to mitigate or explain away or cover over his (Luther’s) prevailing hatred of the Jewish people.” **Pg. 372. Comparing Eck to Luther is exactly what Marius was talking about.

For the record GK, I have no real interest in dragging out all of the horrific things that Luther recommended actually happen to the Jews on this thread. By the same token, I am not willing to allow Eck to be slandered by comparing him to Luther on the matter of the Jews. There are plenty of specifics which can be posted about Luther if need be.

God Bless You GK, Topper
 
Not enough room for both of us in this post.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I was interested in seeing not so much the page count of Luther vs Eck (as I said, I would expect Luther to be ahead in that race), but to see which books, as you stated, on the Holocaust, made much reference to either of them. I had almost no memory of either name being mentioned in the (as it turns out, approximately 40 titles I can lay hands on) that address, generally, the subject of the Holocaust, meaning within the period of the Third Reich. So I looked. As you mention, not all books have an index, which slows one down and makes one tentative. But in the books I examined, 5 mentioned Luther, usually in a brief few sentences, as a particularly egregious offender, within the general history of Christian antisemitism, before and after his time. I found no mention of Eck at all. OTOH, imbedded in a short chapter in a short book (GENOCIDE: THE JEWS IN EUROPE 1939-1945/Rutherford) I found St. John Chrysostom, to lead off a comparison of Christianity with Naziism, re: the Jews, and no mention of Luther.

All of which didn’t surprise me. What had surprised me was your saying (as I understood you) that you had a number of books on the Holocaust that connected Luther, in some sense (uniquely, I assumed) with modern antisemitism, and, these books being on the Holocaust, make a special case for his midwifing it, in some sense. What I find generally is a cursory historical overview, in which Luther does oft appear, amidst a general condemnation of historic Christianity for the genocide. Which is more what I thought I recalled. Luther is a name which certainly comes to mind, and no one thought of Eck, that I found, but it is Christianity that gets the blame, more than anything else I could name, for the atmosphere that birthed that Solution. And the treatment is not extensive; this is a bunch of books on the historic Shoah, not an overview of Christianity’s treatment of the Jews.

Professor Probst’s book look like something that might fit into one of my areas of interest. I’ll have to chase it down. So, if you hadn’t mentioned books on the Holocaust, I’d not have made a reply. And not have seen Probst’s book.
 
Hi ben,
The trouble with us Lutherans exposing the idea of Sola Scriptura, is that in America, those words have also become a rallying cry for other churches and I would say they have a different understanding of it - using it more as a personal creed rather than a practice of the church. (my opinion)
I appreciate that you have noted that the above is your opinion, but it should be pointed out that Martin Luther taught that SS actually was what you call a ‘personal creed’. By that I mean that he actually did teach that the individual had the authority to interpret and develop their own doctrinal beliefs. This is exactly what he taught for the first 7 years of so of his Revolt, and that teaching has been carried on precisely as he taught it by the communions (and individuals) whom you think are so wrong.

This text is from Luther’s Sermon for Pentecost Tuesday, 1523.

*“IV. THE HEARERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXAMINE AND JUDGE A SERMON.
  1. In this text there are two thoughts worthy of note: the liberty of faith, and the power to judge. **You know that our soul-murderers have proposed to us that what the councils and the learned doctors decide and decree, that we should accept, and not judge for ourselves whether it is right or not. **They have become so certain of the infallibility of the councils and doctors that they have now established the edict, publicly seen, that if we do not accept what they say, we are put under the ban. Now, let us take a spear in hand and make a hole in their shield; yea, their resolutions shall be a spider’s web. And you should, moreover, use upon them the spear which, until now, they have used upon us, and hold before them its point.
    **
  2. Remember well that the sheep have to pass judgment upon that which is placed before them. They **should say: We have Christ as our Lord and prefer his Word to the words of any man or to those of the angels of darkness. We want to examine and judge for ourselves whether the pope, the bishops and their followers do right or not. For Christ says here that the sheep judge and know which is the right voice and which is not. Now let them come along. Have they decreed anything? **We will examine whether it is right, and according to our own judgment interpret that which is a private affair for each individual Christian, knowing that the authority to do this is not human, but divine. *Even the real sheep flee from a stranger and hold to the voice of their shepherd.
Here we see Luther preaching that the sheep have the authority to judge the teachings that are given to them and of course, presumably that would be His Teachings also. Luther makes it VERY clear that each individual Christian, according to our own judgment, which is a private affair, not human, but divine, MAY and in fact SHOULD pass judgment upon that which is placed before them. This of course, would include ANYONE’s teachings, OR ELSE, Luther really DID NOT MEAN THIS, in that it did NOT apply to people judging HIS Teachings. However, in order to withstand those who would rebuke His Teachings, it would be necessary for HIM to determine that those who do, are really NOT sheep at all, meaning that they are not REALLY Christian.
  1. Therefore, be ye aroused by this passage of Scripture to hew to pieces and thrust through everything that is not in harmony with the Gospel, **for it belongs to the sheep to judge, and not to the preachers. You have the authority and power to judge everything that is preached; that and nothing less. If we have not this power, then Christ vainly said to us in Mt 7, 15: “Beware of false prophets, **who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.” We could not beware if we had not the power to judge, but were obliged to accept everything they said and preached.”
Again, here Luther makes even more clear the contradiction associated with his “theology”. IF he really meant that ANY Christian had the “right” to judge what was and what was NOT in harmony with the Gospel, including the teachings of “preachers.” (like Him), then he certainly would have found it “necessary” to treat those whose “positions” were in opposition to His Own, with a certain “Christian Charity”, AND realize that he could not just “rebuke” them from HIS authority and unilaterally declare THEM to be wrong. However, as Luther PROVED time and time again, he didn’t REALLY mean all of these things at all. He HAD to proclaim them in order to establish HIS OWN authority, but then VERY quickly proclaimed HIMSELF to be “superior” to ALL those who disagreed with Him.

I recognize that Luther’s teaching of Sola Scriptura PLUS the 'Right of the Individual to Interpret" (SS+PI) does not ‘compute’ for modern day Lutherans, but it is exactly the doctrine he originally taught and it is the model of authority that he ‘used’ to break away from the Church.

I realize ben that this is not one of the writings of Luther that you ever learned about in your Lutheran church. The problem here is that all of the doctrinal confusion and dissension that we both decry, Martin Luther is responsible. There is a great deal of additional supporting evidence if you would like to see it.

God Bless You ben, Topper
 
We would say we know that through the Word of God, which comes to us through 2 channels: Scripture AND Tradition.

Well, I would say Sacred Tradition. The example I would give of something that we know that’s “independent of Scripture” would be the canon of the New Testament.

You don’t know what’s theopneustos, except through Sacred Tradition.
There is also the living Magisterium. It is not “independent” of Scripture, or Tradition, but they are closely related. It’s obvious the Magisterium canonized Scripture: that means more than just choosing books, it means identifying that there will be a “New Testament”; that it will be considered inspired; that certain other books will be the “Old Testament”; defining the relationship between the 2; defining the role of Scripture in the Church.

It is not so obvious, but also true, that the Living Magisterium “canonized” Tradition. Some authority assessed the vast body of traditions, said that 1% of them will be defined as Sacred Tradition, and defined the role of Sacred Tradition, in comparison with Scripture.

Protestants accept (without identifying the source) the Magisterium’s canonizing work on Scripture, and most of its work on Tradition. Thus writers for centuries jumped through verbal hoops to defend the NT canon without identifying that mysterious canonist.
But that era may be ending. The most liberal Protestants are now arguing that if Christians are not bound by the 21st century Magisterium, why should they be bound by the 4th century Magisterium, and its NT canon?
 
I understand that Lutherans follow the Lutheran Confessions and the Catholics follow the CCC and these two teaching tools view Scripture differently.

Maybe if you instead used the Lutheran teaching on **sola scriptura **as your example instead of our two churches teaching on Mary, that may be helpful.

Thanks!
Hi Stylt,
The Lutheran practice/use of sola scriptura is best described by the Formula of Concord, Epitome:
  1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.
2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.
3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.
The Church holds all doctrines and teachings accountable to scripture, yet we are often and regularly enlightened by the teachings of the Fathers and the early church, as Chemnitz makes clear:
“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’ And whoever twists the Holy Scripture so that it is understood according to his preconceived opinions does this to his own destruction (2 Peter 3:16). The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. We also gratefully and reverently use the labors of the fathers who by their commentaries have profitably clarified many passages of the Scripture. And we confess that we are greatly confirmed by the testimonies of the ancient church in the true and sound understanding of the Scripture. Nor do we approve of it if someone invents for himself a meaning which conflicts with all antiquity, and for which there are clearly no testimonies of the church.”
Jon
 
=Topper17;13028160]I don’t think we should discuss modern day Lutheran beliefs as if they have nothing to do with Martin Luther and his Revolt against the Church. You simply cannot skip past the way in which Luther claimed to have an authority to teach that was above that of the Church.
And I don’t think we should talk about historic Lutheran belief simplistically as related to Luther, since it is obvious to anyone willing to listen that, while he is very important, he is one part of our Tradition.
First of all, one of the problems that I have encountered over the years is that there is no consistent definition of the term Sola Scriptura.
This is clear.
As for the FofC, I am not at all inclined to view it as an ‘accomplishment’ in terms of Christian doctrine.
Irrelevant.
Seriously, who were those guys and by what authority did they presume to have the right to start their own communion? What makes them and their teachings better than those of the Catholic Church?
The issue of authority, and who has it or doesn’t, is not the topic, but it is also one that stretches much further back than the Reformation era. In fact, I would contend the Reformation doesn’t happen if the Roman see doesn’t overstep its authority by claiming universal jurisdiction without benefit of ecumenical council.
Does this mean that you are discouraging me from posting information about Luther and Sola Scriptura here on this thread Jon? The fact is that the Lutheran Church would not stand for one of its Theologians, Scholars, or Professors revolted against its teachings. What was it that makes Luther’s revolt against the Catholic Church acceptable?
and the Catholic Church didn’t stand for Luther’s, did it? They excommunicated him, just like there were mutual excommunications in the 11th century.

Jon
 
=Topper17;13028170]For the record Jon, Mathison is very clear about the relationship between Luther’s introduction of Sola Scriptura AND the fact that he was the ‘catalyst’ which caused the Western Church to explode.
If the early sixteenth century Western Church was in an unstable and volatile condition, Martin Luther was the catalyst that caused it to explode. His conflicts with Rome ignited what is called the Protestant Reformation. The concern here is with only one particular aspect of Luther’s thought – his view of Scripture and tradition, but it is almost impossible to understand why Luther said and did the things he did without some understanding of his personal background and the social and ecclesiastical context in which he found himself………He had been acutely depressed over the prospect of death since his youth……As he began to recite the first words of the mass, terror struck him as he realized his unworthiness to stand before the infinitely holy God**………He would confess his sins daily, sometimes for periods as long as six hours, but his torment continued………**
We find the first public hints of Luther’s concept of Sola Scriptura at the Leipzig debate between himself and John Eck. At this debate Luther defended the proposition that Scripture was the supreme authority – above the pope and above councils. It was at the Diet of Worms, however, where Luther made his most famous speech regarding the authority of Scripture. After being challenged by the magistrates to repudiate his books and recant his views. Luther said:
“Since then Your Majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer without horns and teeth. Unless I am convicted to Scripture and plain reason – I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other – my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right or safe. God help me. Amen.” Keith Mathison, “The Shape of Sola Scriptura”, pg. 86-94
Interesting, but it doesn’t answer my question, which was, do you know of a communion prior to Lutheranism that practiced sola scriptura differently than Lutherans did and do?
Luther was indeed one of ‘the Reformers,’ whose proposals triggered lasting schism in the Western church. Whether he would have pressed his convictions in quite the same way had he been able to look farther into the future, we cannot know. In any case, the aspects of Luther’s work over which the church divided – whatever they may in fact have been – have long since had their effect for good and ill.” Professor Robert Jenson, “Luther’s Contemporary Theological Significance”, in “Companion”, pg. 272-3
First of all, we see a Lutheran Professor stating that that it was Luther ‘whose proposals triggered lasting schism……”, which I think is quite an admission. It also brings out the point that it is acceptable, at least to Lutheran academics, to discuss Luther’s ‘role’ in the Western Schism. **The question then becomes why it is not here on a Catholic Apologetics site. **
More evidence that your constant complaint that Lutherans have hidden Luther is a polemic, as is the last comment that it is not acceptable to discuss Luther’s role in western schism, or Leo’s, Huss’, or the Great Schism’s, or any number of players. No one has said that, no one has even implied it.
Just start a thread on any of these. Its allowed.
The OP suggests that Sola Scriptura ‘eventually leads to a million different interpretations of the same text, with everyone in the debate insisting his or her own interpretation is the best”. That is exactly what Luther was warned against when he began teaching Sola Scriptura.
The role of Sola Scriptura in the division of Western Christendom is well understood, and of course, Luther’s responsibility for Sola Scriptura is also well known. As such, my posts are very much in keeping with the OP.
Certainly the misuse of sola scriptura has done that. There is no doubt.
If the topic is Sola Scriptura and its role in doctrinal dissension, then the topic IS Luther.
Luther is certainly part of it, but as we have discussed numerous times, nobody was forced or required to do anything Luther did. Luther didn’t force the corruption on the Church that sparked the various reformation era movements.

But the Op’s question, again, was:
If I’m a Lutheran and I want to know, for instance, whether or not the church should practice infant baptism, I first should go to scripture and see what is said. I read the scriptures and conclude the proper interpretation is that infants should be baptized. But then there are all these other Christians saying infants shouldn’t be baptized and that the Bible doesn’t teach it. So how do I know my interpretation is the Apostolic interpretation of scripture and not just my own faulty understanding? The Baptist says he’s got it right, I say I have it right, who settles the dispute? Whichever side can argue it the best?
OR, can the Lutheran look to the early church fathers and say, “I know my interpretation is correct because the church has always properly interpreted this teaching the correct way”? Or is that a violation of the sola scriptura principle?
Those are the questions of the OP. “If I’m a Lutheran…”, “…can a Lutheran…”. He’s asking what we do, not whether or not Luther was anti-Jewish, called the pope anti-christ, or violated the Church’s splintered authority. And it isn’t about what role the Catholic Church played in the Reformation era.
Nonetheless, I have neither to interest nor power to stop your posting on these other topics. Enjoy.

Jon
 
The confessions assert that “All truths necessary to salvation are stated in Holy Scripture”, and this is supposed to come from Scripture…but it doesn’t.

That should be a problem for Lutherans, don’t you think?
I wouldn’t consider the necessity of a literal “written down” to be particularly valid.

Here’s what the Epitome says:
  • We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.*
The purpose of sola scriptura is to hold doctrine and teaching accountable.

this is somewhat like the argument regarding infant baptism, or the Trinity. a verbatim statement is the intent of sola scriptura. But if your pressing for a Bible verse, 1 John 5 -
***I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. *14And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

Jon
 
I wouldn’t consider the necessity of a literal “written down” to be particularly valid.

Here’s what the Epitome says:
  • We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.*
The purpose of sola scriptura is to hold doctrine and teaching accountable.

this is somewhat like the argument regarding infant baptism, or the Trinity. a verbatim statement is the intent of sola scriptura.
Doctrine and teaching are held accountable to Scripture?

But doesn’t each of the tens of thousands of differing denominations each claim that their doctrine and teaching are accountable to Scripture?

Who is the final arbiter, then, when 2 people disagree about a doctrine?
But if your pressing for a Bible verse, 1 John 5 -
***I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. ***14And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
This would seem to be arguing for a Sola Johannine perspective, no?
 
Doctrine and teaching are held accountable to Scripture?

But doesn’t each of the tens of thousands of differing denominations each claim that their doctrine and teaching are accountable to Scripture?

Who is the final arbiter, then, when 2 people disagree about a doctrine?

This would seem to be arguing for a Sola Johannine perspective, no?
Only if one thinks that other parts of scripture would contradict John’s reasoning

Jon
 
We would say we know that through the Word of God, which comes to us through 2 channels: Scripture AND Tradition.

Well, I would say Sacred Tradition. The example I would give of something that we know that’s “independent of Scripture” would be the canon of the New Testament.

You don’t know what’s theopneustos, except through Sacred Tradition.
Let’s say for a moment that I agree, how does the Church know that part of Tradition not written in scripture? Is the example of papal infallibility ex cathedra reasonable? How does the Church know that this is true 1800 after the apostles?

Jon
 
Hi Stylt,
The Lutheran practice/use of sola scriptura is best described by the Formula of Concord, Epitome:
  1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.
A key aspect of Catholicism is the protection we can rely on by the Holy Spirit.

It appears that Lutherans do not trust the Holy Spirit (in the same manner as Catholics do) to protect their faith from making errors and therefore rely only on the Holy Scriptures and any enlightenment they can obtain from Church Fathers.

Presumably the Confessions themselves can’t truly be trusted for the same reason (it’s not the sole authority (Bible) nor is it an enlightening early document (Church Father writing)).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top