Sola Scriptura questions

[look3467]

The scripture is the basis for any knowledge of who God is.

Up and until Abraham, there was no knowledge about the true character of God.

That is evident by the many images of the imagined gods.

They had an inkling of something greater than themselves but could never pin point anything because there was simply no knowledge of or any written source for reference.

So, we have the Old Testament, not written in the days of old,(At the actual event time) but at a particular time as mankind was inspired by the Spirit of God to write.

Being a reference to the nature of who or what God was, was the word written and by which set a standard for the world to see, via those to whom that word was entrusted to.

So, naturally, the bible as compiled by those whom God inspired, gather together, gave responsibility to, and the ones inspired to preach, teach, instruct and help guide others to His Son to be the central Key reason for all of it.

No bible no church! For every belief has its book, be it the bible, the new world translation, the Koran, the gold tablets etc.

God is not, in my view, ignorant of all that is going on with the differing belief systems that He cannot save.

He is the creator and knows of every conceivable sin that could possibly be conceived in the minds of mankind and still supply grace above all that in the saving of the soul.

So, the bible for you is a good start. Your church is a guide to help you along.

But the responsibility of you learning and understanding the things of God is not the churches, but you own.

You have to study, as many of us have, being tried in the arena of life’s experience, shaped and molded by the spirit of God to a stature that resembles His Christ.

Scripture alone is an introduction, the church is your encouragement, and finally, you are ultimately responsible for your own spiritual growth.

That my thoughts on the subject, hope it helps somewhat.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Nominefili]

In Sola Scriptura churches, how can the illiterate and mentally or physically disabled come to be incorporated into the Body of Christ? If they can’t develop a personal relationship with Christ through reading the Bible, or they don’t understand the Bible how do they become Christian or grow in faith?

And what does a person do if he lacks confidence in his personal understanding of the Bible? If people tell him all he needs is the Bible, and he reads it but it makes no sense to him?

As a conservative Lutheran, I am more than happy to answer your question regarding ‘Sola Scriptura churches,’ since I am a member of the original one. One ‘becomes a Christian’ through one’s faith in Christ Jesus; believing that He was the Son of God and the Lamb of God; fully God and fully Man, and that He came to earth, born of the blessed Virgin Mary, to die in substitutionary vicarious atonement for the sins of all mankind.

This ‘personal relationship’ you speak of does not have to imply that Jesus ‘walks with me and he talks with me.’ Rather, I was made one with him when, on one warm May afternoon in the 80’s, I received the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, forgiving my sins and strengthening my faith.

To tell someone ‘all you need is the Bible’ is silly, not because there is any error in the Bible (there isn’t) but because:

(From Romans 10)

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The Bible offers the true Word of God, there is no question. But God, through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, has also given us the Sacraments; namely Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist, to bring us closer to Him, to forgive us our sins, and make us part of His Fold. Further, He has given us preachers to convict us of our sins and remind us of our forgiveness in Christ. And it is in the person and work of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, not our Bible memory games, that we are saved.

 

[Dokimas]

They can be saved like anyone else into the Body of Christ. If they have a mental impairment, the Bible does not specifically address that issue. Our church has several adult with disabilities.
We do not believe that literacy is required for being a Christian. I am curious why you believe that? Could you direct me to a church that believes that?
In general, I am not familiar with a group that espouses the beliefs in the manner you are describing them.

This is my understanding as well.

 

[Dokimas]

Just some Christians I know. They don’t attach themselves or beliefs to a particular church, they just say that all you need is the Bible, and I was wondering how that works out for people who can’t read or don’t understand it. Is this some sort of strange movement or something?

People who can’t read can get the Bible on DVD or have someone read it to them.

 

[Dokimas]

By the same token that a baby can not sin because the baby has no knowledge of good and evil.

In the book of Genesis it states that “the day” knowledge is ingested and acted upon, separation between that soul and God begins.

Ref: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

A baby, and the mentally impaired are innocent of any sin until the day they eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, should that be, their spiritual eyes are not opened thus not able to discern (judge) between good and evil.

AJ

You do understand that this verse was spoken by Satan, don’t you? He was speaking a lie. IMO, the only real doctrine from this verse is that Satan is the father of lies.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

People who can’t read can get the Bible on DVD or have someone read it to them.

Especially since they now have practically every translation of the Bible on audio CD now. I drive a lot in my job, and often listen to the ESV audio Bible while I’m doing it.

You do understand that this verse was spoken by Satan, don’t you?

look3467 is Satan! BAN HIM!

wonders if anyone’s ever been banned from a Christian forum for that pretense

 

[look3467]

You do understand that this verse was spoken by Satan, don’t you? He was speaking a lie. IMO, the only real doctrine from this verse is that Satan is the father of lies.

I do understand, though it was a lie for the purpose of deceiving, it was the truth because it did happen.

Also, perhaps you may not have looked at it another way, but if you think about it for a moment, you would see that having the ability to reason without a trial is pointless.

The deceiving part is the test, the trial which when the day one becomes an independent individual, that’s the day we die. (Become separated)

That’s what that verse is referencing.

Now, the traditional view is an act of disobedience of which is taken as condemnation.

What the condemnation rough, was not disobedience, but rather the independence from God as gods.

As long as one looks at it as disobedience, then the onus for our own salvation rests on us, rather than on God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Especially since they now have practically every translation of the Bible on audio CD now. I drive a lot in my job, and often listen to the ESV audio Bible while I’m doing it.

look3467 is Satan! BAN HIM!

wonders if anyone’s ever been banned from a Christian forum for that pretense

The verse is in the bible is it not?

Wolf…Christ would never ban me…should you?

Because my understanding does not meet yours, is that reason enough to ban someone?

You’ll find amongst all my posts, I don’t criticize anyone for their beliefs, don’t belittle anyone, and do not fear the unknown, for Christ is my foundation, my solid rock… of whom shall I fear?

Satan has nothing on me and I don’t fear Him.

If what one does not understand, one fears, but if we understand than there is no longer fear.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Dokimas]

I do understand, though it was a lie for the purpose of deceiving, it was the truth because it did happen.

Blessings, AJ

Let’s see if I got your logic: I say I’m the president of the US. It’s a lie but because it happened that I said the lie, I’m the president.

I think I got it. Lies the devil tells are the truth because it happens that he tells them.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Wolf…Christ would never ban me…

You have that from good authority?

 

[look3467]

Let’s see if I got your logic: I say I’m the president of the US. It’s a lie but because it happened that I said the lie, I’m the president.

I think I got it. Lies the devil tells are the truth because it happens that he tells them.

Ok, I’ll go along with your analogy.

Lets say that someone else your telling this lie to will
see that your president by deceiving you to become a US citizen.

Of course, there is no need to believe it unless, one does eat of the tree, or rather does become a citizen, and finds out that you really are the president.

Guess what? Your eyes were open to the truth.

That is precisely what happened as spoken.

What happened? Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

They saw that they fell short: Ref: Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

The promise?

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

He who? Adam? No. for Adam fell short, but to Him who in the righteousness of God through faith as a second type of Adam won victory for us only as new creatures, born again: being the actual beginning of life.

All this is right there in the scriptures where we may find the salvation of God through Jesus for each and everyone of our souls.

Need I anything else but God’s righteousness in Jesus given to me as a gift?

Nowhere else, no place else, Ref:Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. (Save Jesus)

Should we add anything to that?

Blessings, AJ

 

[Dokimas]

Ok, I’ll go along with your analogy.

Lets say that someone else your telling this lie to will
see that your president by deceiving you to become a US citizen.

Of course, there is no need to believe it unless, one does eat of the tree, or rather does become a citizen, and finds out that you really are the president.

Guess what? Your eyes were open to the truth.

That is precisely what happened as spoken.

What happened? Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

They saw that they fell short: Ref: Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

The promise?

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

He who? Adam? No. for Adam fell short, but to Him who in the righteousness of God through faith as a second type of Adam won victory for us only as new creatures, born again: being the actual beginning of life.

All this is right there in the scriptures where we may find the salvation of God through Jesus for each and everyone of our souls.

Need I anything else but God’s righteousness in Jesus given to me as a gift?

Nowhere else, no place else, Ref:Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. (Save Jesus)

Should we add anything to that?

Blessings, AJ

They were naked before they eat. Was that good or evil?

They were naked after they eat. They must have perceived it was evil because of their response.

God created them naked; God didn’t give them clothes nor tell them to cloth themselfs so it was not evil. The devil’s lie was not the truth. They got very mixed up about what was good and what was evil, not to mention they didn’t become as God. A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie. Oh, ye, the devil can’t create he can only destort.

 

[look3467]

They were naked before they eat. Was that good or evil?

They were naked after they eat. They must have perceived it was evil because of their response.

The word “naked” has two meanings in the bible. One nakedness is physical, the other is spiritual.

What is spiritual is what we want to concentrate on because that is what the state/condition of the souls of Adam and Eve was.

That condition or state was a “lost state”.

The reason that is the condition is because of this ref: Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

Note: As you study your bible note the numbers as used and you will find some significance to them.

For example that verse above 34:16. If you add them up you get 7:7.

The number 7 is completeness. So in that verse we have two complete separate works of God.
One: He created and rested on the 7th day, meaning completed. But in the process it was lost and driven away, as in Adam and Eve being cast out of the Garden.

And Two: is the second creative process of Jesus’ work, doing the 7-day creation in one days work and resting at the end of that day, being the beginning of the Sabbath rest.

So we can see both works complected as 7: 7.

Just to go a little further, add those 7:7 together and you get 14. Added those two and it equals 5. Five is the number of grace.

Just thought it be of interest to you.

Ok, back to nakedness.

What spiritual element is seen here is the revelation, exposure/nakedness, of a condition where Adam and Eve found themselves in because of their ability to reason between two opposites.

Two opposites being good and evil.

When we are able to discern/judge between those two, we become our own selves.

Meaning that we become as gods/lords over our own desires and wants as opposed to those of God’s because of the flesh.

Thus, we became separated from God, cast out of the Garden, and shame was a resultant, or in other words, speaking spiritual terms here, in stead of shame, it was spiritual awareness.

It woke up the awareness of the difference between who we are and who God is.

That process is was “lost” in the creation of Adam and Eve.

Now, pay close attention here: A second creation was all instituted as a second type of Adam in Jesus, and Jesus was to take the loss of the first, to liberate the lost condition of the first.

So, rather then a whole creation of souls, from Adam to today being lost, God saw to it that only one soul would be lost in place of many, and that was the soul of Jesus.

But wait! God knew what He was doing all along, and although the soul of Jesus was lost, God did not leave Him lost, but rescued Him.
Ref: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

That is speaking of the condition Jesus was in at His crucifixion.

The promise was to Him: Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So, you see, God’s perfect work is in both creations, 7:7 completed both in His grace, love for His creation. Ref:Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If that does not make you jump for joy, then read it again and chew on it for awhile until it sinks in.

God created them naked; God didn’t give them clothes nor tell them to cloth themselfs so it was not evil. The devil’s lie was not the truth. They got very mixed up about what was good and what was evil, not to mention they didn’t become as God. A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie. Oh, ye, the devil can’t create he can only destort.

If you look at the bible stories with the physical, that’s what you are going to get out of it.
But when you see the bible stories in it’s spiritual content, you will see the wonderful works of God in them and just amaze you as to how wonderful and loving our God is.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Dokimas]

The word “naked” has two meanings in the bible. One nakedness is physical, the other is spiritual.

What is spiritual is what we want to concentrate on because that is what the state/condition of the souls of Adam and Eve was.

That condition or state was a “lost state”.

The reason that is the condition is because of this ref: Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

Note: As you study your bible note the numbers as used and you will find some significance to them.

For example that verse above 34:16. If you add them up you get 7:7.

The number 7 is completeness. So in that verse we have two complete separate works of God.
One: He created and rested on the 7th day, meaning completed. But in the process it was lost and driven away, as in Adam and Eve being cast out of the Garden.

And Two: is the second creative process of Jesus’ work, doing the 7-day creation in one days work and resting at the end of that day, being the beginning of the Sabbath rest.

So we can see both works complected as 7: 7.

Just to go a little further, add those 7:7 together and you get 14. Added those two and it equals 5. Five is the number of grace.

Just thought it be of interest to you.

Ok, back to nakedness.

What spiritual element is seen here is the revelation, exposure/nakedness, of a condition where Adam and Eve found themselves in because of their ability to reason between two opposites.

Two opposites being good and evil.

When we are able to discern/judge between those two, we become our own selves.

Meaning that we become as gods/lords over our own desires and wants as opposed to those of God’s because of the flesh.

Thus, we became separated from God, cast out of the Garden, and shame was a resultant, or in other words, speaking spiritual terms here, in stead of shame, it was spiritual awareness.

It woke up the awareness of the difference between who we are and who God is.

That process is was “lost” in the creation of Adam and Eve.

Now, pay close attention here: A second creation was all instituted as a second type of Adam in Jesus, and Jesus was to take the loss of the first, to liberate the lost condition of the first.

So, rather then a whole creation of souls, from Adam to today being lost, God saw to it that only one soul would be lost in place of many, and that was the soul of Jesus.

But wait! God knew what He was doing all along, and although the soul of Jesus was lost, God did not leave Him lost, but rescued Him.
Ref: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

That is speaking of the condition Jesus was in at His crucifixion.

The promise was to Him: Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So, you see, God’s perfect work is in both creations, 7:7 completed both in His grace, love for His creation. Ref:Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If that does not make you jump for joy, then read it again and chew on it for awhile until it sinks in.

If you look at the bible stories with the physical, that’s what you are going to get out of it.
But when you see the bible stories in it’s spiritual content, you will see the wonderful works of God in them and just amaze you as to how wonderful and loving our God is.

Blessings, AJ

IMO, you’re under-analyzing what I’ve said and over-analyzing the verses you’ve (we’ve) been discussing.

 

[guanophore]

They were naked before they eat. Was that good or evil?

They were naked after they eat. They must have perceived it was evil because of their response.

God created them naked; God didn’t give them clothes nor tell them to cloth themselfs so it was not evil. The devil’s lie was not the truth. They got very mixed up about what was good and what was evil, not to mention they didn’t become as God. A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie. Oh, ye, the devil can’t create he can only destort.

God did make clothes for them. This was the first blood shed on account of sins.

The did 'become like God" in that they appropriated for themselves the privilege to determine good and evil, rather than accepting this from God.

 

[look3467]

IMO, you’re under-analyzing what I’ve said and over-analyzing the verses you’ve (we’ve) been discussing.

Well, I guess that pretty much covers everything. I mean the full spectrum, under and over?

Is there nothing to learn from any of it?

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

God did make clothes for them. This was the first blood shed on account of sins.

The did 'become like God" in that they appropriated for themselves the privilege to determine good and evil, rather than accepting this from God.

Now see, you are looking at it in the spiritual sense, in which I agree with you to be the important part of the work of Christ.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Dokimas]

God did make clothes for them. This was the first blood shed on account of sins.

The did 'become like God" in that they appropriated for themselves the privilege to determine good and evil, rather than accepting this from God.

How good of a job have we done?

Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[guanophore]

I understand what your saying, I haven’t had personal experience with Protestant Christianity and I am not exactly sure what to call these different beliefs. I’ve been friendly with some nice people recently, but their beliefs make no sense to me. They keep saying “all you need is the Bible,” “we believe the Bible,” and “our church mostly teaches the Bible, but we just go there for fellowshipping because that is what church is for,” or “I don’t believe in man-made religion.”

Anyways, I’m trying to figure out what they believe but when I ask they just say they are Christian, and that they believe in the Bible. That doesn’t leave me much to google. Do you happen to know what to call these people and what their beliefs really are?

They are “bible Christians” and basically they believe that however they understand the Scripture when they read it is the H.S. revealing God’s Word to them. That is why there are so many groups, with so many contradictory doctrines.

Fundamentalists sometime use that phrase. Usually it should just mean we believe the Bible is the authority and source of what we believe.

This is also an important distinction between bible christians and Catholics. The Source of the Catholic faith is the person of Jesus, and His teachings that have been deposited with the Church through the Apostles.

And being separated from the faith of those who penned the writings, they understand them as best they are able given the truncated revelation they have received, and as a result, will often fill in the blanks with their own ideas, or ideas from other bible christians that cannot be found in the bible, such as “the bible is the authority and source of what we believe”. Wouldn’t one expect that such a statement would be found within it?

 

[guanophore]

The only question lies in where that church takes its authority - from the church itself, or from the scriptures.

Did you think the Catholic Church believed her authority came from “itself”?

Jesus was given “all authority in heaven and on earth”. With it, He authorized those He had chosen and grafted into Himself as the foundation stones of the Church to administrate His Church. Any authority the Church has comes not from herself, but from God, who is the Source of all authority.

The Church was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. In the 382 years prior to the close of the canon, the system of authority put in place by Christ functioned to spread the gospel, and to write, promulgate, and eventually canonize the Scriptures. The Bible is the product of the Church, not the other way around.

The reason that Catholics are not “bible christians” or “people of the book” is because a book cannot wield authority. Authority requires characteristics that books do not have, however Holy, such as discernment, decision making (will) and the ability to take responsibility for one’s actions. Ulitmately, all those who wish to force the Holy Scriptures into a role they were never intended to have become their own authority, or submit themselves to authorities that were not appointed by Christ.