Sola Scriptura Revisited

[TobyLue]

BethM

The problem is with you; you do not understand the nature of sin and its effect on the natural man, much less the Christian and you do not understand one of the primary purposes of the work of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus explicitly told us

BethM And may I ask who gave you the authority to judge me? Who made you the authority in interpreting scripture?

You read the Book that the CC compiled into one set of books, is following the directions of Jesus with the Holy Spirit, has had the same teachings since Jesus founded it and 2000 years later you come in and tell us that the CC is wrong and YOU have the correct interpretation (but then you admit that you are fallible) but you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you. But you could be wrong because you’re not infallible. Now it is you who is mocking the Word of God by stating your opinions as truth.

BethM… your posting is just running around in circles like a chicken with its legs cut off. You just cant see the fallacy of it and your self-righteousness.

Either Jesus spoke the truth or He didnt. Either he said he would be with HIS CHURCH ALWAYS or he didn’t. When did Jesus give the command to write down what he said? When did Jesus write anything down and told his disciple to read what he had written down and everybody interpret on their own?

When i say Scripture interprets itself; I mean two things. One is that if something appears to be a contradiction, then I know I am in error and need to seek the correct answer elsewhere in Scripture.

Where is this in scripture?

The other aspect is that Scripture is God breathed and therefore is infallible; but the person (Christian) is fallible and needs the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth

Scripture is innerant not infallible. and whos truth would that be since there are hundreds preaching different truths?
And the CC, the men who compiled the Bible, didn’t have the Holy Spirit?. Do you mean to tell me that these men were blindly putting books together, claimed those were inspired by the Holy Spirit, yet were not able to get the correct meaning of what they had put together? You are implying that these men misinterpreted what they compiled and it wasn’t until you came along, read the bible, claimed the Holy Spirit is in you and now YOU have the correct interpretation? But then you claim you are not infallible. So how can you be sure your interpretation is correct. And don’t give me this “I have the Holy Spirit to guide me”.

the Bible says the Christian has the mind of Christ, but one must put that to use by diligent reading and studying, there is no osmosis in understandin

So you are saying that for 2000 years the CC has NOT had the mind of Christ, has not diligently read and studied the books she compiled but YOU do?

I must say BethM, That is arrogance. Sorry to use such strong words, but anybody who claims they know better than the Church Jesus founded is arrogant.

They never accepted the gospel, but were deceived into trusting in another gospel.

So you are saying that the Church that Jesus founded and put the Bible together, never accepted the Gospel but was deceived in trusting another gospel? But then if you go against the Church that Jesus founded, you are making yourself the true interpreter of the Gospel

Interpretations of the multitudes is no surprise and is expected according to the Christians understanding because Jesus said it would be this way in Matthew 7 and Luke 13; few religious people fin the gate and the few that do find it are unable to enter through it, that is what the Bible says and that should scare the daylights out of everyone

What you are saying here is that the CC’s interpretation is one of the multitudes of interpretations, but you are one of the remnant that has the true interpretation. Right?

I would not concern myself about the many different interpretations; i would concern myself with making sure I am part of that remnant.

One should be concerned about the interpretation. How will you know you are doing the right thing? And how do you know that your remnant is true? And where is that remnant? The JW’s make that claim, the SDA’s, the Mormans, and time and time again you read about a certain remnants popping up here and there.

 

[TobyLue]

If you say that your church has not changed in it’s interpretation, then it means they have not changed, it does not mean it is correct and based on what Jesus said; it is most likely to be incorrect;

And who made you the arbiter, judge and interpreter of scripture?
Truth does not change. Jesus taught the apostles, they gave that same teaching to their disciples, and those disciples passed it on down to their successors, who eventually around 380 AD compiled all those teachings and with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit compiled the Bible and the Bible COULD NOT disagree with the teachings that the Church was handed down to them by Jesus. There were always men who took to interpreting those scripture different and thus heresies developed because they were teaching things that disagreed with the Church that Jesus founded
Montanism, Gnosticism, Arianism all these heresies before the Bible was compiled.
Pelaginism, Catharism,Iconoclasm, all these AFTER the bible was compiled. They all taught something different then what the Church was teaching.
Then came Protestantism, and they started teaching scripture alone and all sorts of different interpretations came about all claiming they had the truth and continues to this day.

You claming the Church to be wrong and you right, regretfully fall in this category.

As for me, I would rather follow the Church that Jesus founded and He said He would be with her till the end of time, rather than follow my own opinion. Many make the same claims as you do.
They know they are not infallible, but they have the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is guiding them and they know they are correct but all have different interpretations. Many claim they are the remnant but have different teachings, i.e. gospels. Again, is this what Jesus left behind?

The Bibles tripod, borrowing your context is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; I’ll stand firm on that unbendable tripod made of the Rock rather than the foundation of sand to borrow an analogy from Jesus.

But then your interpretation could be wrong because you know you’re not infallible.
Does scripture say that the Bible is Pillar and Bulwark of Truth or does it say the Church is?

 

[Nicea325]

No offense taken. Their theology makes little sense, to be sure.

How long were you a JW? What made you left or maybe you are planning to leave?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

TobyLue

Does scripture say that the Bible is Pillar and Bulwark of Truth or does it say the Church is?

Good point. When Jesus gave the great commission, what did he say?

“Thou art the Bible, and upon this Bible I will build my Bible, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

Or did he say something rather different?

“Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

New Testament not even mentioned!

 

[FantomScholar]

TobyLue

Does scripture say that the Bible is Pillar and Bulwark of Truth or does it say the Church is?

Good point. When Jesus gave the great commission, what did he say?

“Thou art the Bible, and upon this Bible I will build my Bible, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

Or did he say something rather different?

“Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

New Testament not even mentioned!

Nothing at all mentioned of the New Testament in a quotation from the New Testament? :whacky:

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*Nothing at all mentioned of the New Testament in a quotation from the New Testament? *

Right!

The Church (apostles and their disciples) wrote the Bible. The Bible did not write the Church!

All the teaching authority of the apostles and their successors came directly from Christ, not from the Bible. The teaching authority of the Church did not begin or end with the writing of the Bible. And the Bible as we know it was not even formally assembled and approved until centuries after the death of the apostles.

 

[Nicea325]

The Church (apostles and their disciples) wrote the Bible. The Bible did not write the Church!

Amen!

All the teaching authority of the apostles and their successors came directly from Christ, not from the Bible.

Amen again!

The teaching authority of the Church did not begin or end with the writing of the Bible. And the Bible as we know it was not even formally assembled and approved until centuries after the death of the apostles.

Christ left a church,not the Bible. The Bible is a byproduct of the church,not vice versa.

 

[simspt]

Amen!

Amen again!

Christ left a church,not the Bible. The Bible is a byproduct of the church,not vice versa.

I think describing the Bible as a byproduct promotes the false idea that many Protestants have that Catholics do not belong to a “Bible Church” or are not faithful to the Bible. I would argue Christ did leave us both the Bible and Church. Weren’t Paul’s writings viewed very early on by the Church as being inspired from God?

 

[simspt]

Nicea

I think I know the point your making using the byproduct term but just because the NT writings were the products of the Church and chronologically came later I dont know if that would make them mere byproducts. This isnt the Catholic view of Scriptures is it?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

simspt

I think I know the point your making using the byproduct term but just because the NT writings were the products of the Church and chronologically came later I dont know if that would make them mere byproducts.

The word mere is yours, not ours. We think the New Testament is a great product produced by the Church. But let’s be honest: the New Testament did not produce the Church. The gospels were not even written until some time after the deaths of Peter and Paul. What was put into the gospels had to be authenticated by the people who wrote them and accepted by the people who received them. That means the the authority of the Church itself.

Nowhere in the New Testament will you find it said that all teaching authority resides only in the letters of Paul and the Gospels. So that doctrine by itself is not Biblical.

But you will find that at the Council of Jerusalem described in Acts 15 the teaching authority is very much in the hands of the Church hierarchy, since as yet there was not even a New Testament assembled and approved by the Church authorities, and would not be for several more centuries.

See users.stargate.net/~elcore/wegotnt.htm for the origins of the New Testament.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth Martin

You belong to no religion yet you are an authority on the Bible and Bible history? Whew! How did that happen?

God is the only authority concerning man and all creation. God by His grace and mercy saved me and has allowed me the privledge to understand His word and to share HIs thoughts with others. He has also said that most will reject His words and call me all kinds of things and make false accusations against me because of Him, but I will tell of His words as He has commanded out of love and obedience for Him.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Clean up my previous post? What difference does it make? If you took a minute,you would be able to distinguish my words from yours.

Yes I know what I said and as stated,Sola Scriptura is not biblical or historically accurate,so how does that comment equate into being biased toward scripture? Biased toward a novel doctrine? Yes. Biased toward what scripture teaches? Nope! Big difference.

I am very aware of explicitly and implicitly when applicable to all Orthodox doctrines. Unfortunately, Sola Scriptura is not taught explicitly or implicitly;hence it is a novel doctrine.

Now…if you claim it is taught,implicitly,then by all means produce St.Ignatius writings advocating or even defending the doctrine of Sola Scriptura? I’ll wait for you to produce his writings on the doctrine Sola Scriptura.

Do you have reverence for Scripture? Do you believe its claim that it is “living and active”? Do you believe that Scripture is without error? If you found a Bible that had books with errors in it, what would you conclude about that Bible?

If you really wanted to kill Sola Scriptura in the way you understand it; all you need is to read Romans 1 and 2 for it tells us that those that have no revelation of Christ Jesus will be held accountable for what has been revealed, which Romans 1 & 2 obviously is not referring to Scripture.

Since people are unwilling to look to first understand what Sola Scriptura is and what it is not, then compare that to Scripture and some traditions of man, then one would not so easily dismiss. as you and others do, the objective truth of the doctrine. The blind do not always remain blind, but most do according to God.

The doctrine of sola fide or “by faith alone” in it most simplistic form asserts God’s complete forgiveness for sinners and its just penalty which is physical and spiritual death is granted to and received through His grace by faith alone in Jesus alone, free from any human efforts or works is much more important in my opinion than Sola Scriptura. However; the understanding of Sola Scriptura will better help the Christian to understand Sola Fide in my opinion. Perhaps it is time to move onto Sola Fide?

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth, how does 1 Timothy 3:15 tie into your ideas about Sola Scriptura?

I believe you first have to understand the definition of “church” from a Biblical perspective. Your understanding of “church” and my knowledge of “church” most likely differ. So for me to answer the question you must first understand what the Bible means by “church”. The body of Christ, the church, is commanded to protect the truth of the gospel given to men as the rest of the context tells us. The collective body of believers is to uphold Christ and His gospel from error and other assorted attacks. Where is the gospel of Jesus Christ found? Scripture!!

 

[Beth_Martin]

No offense taken. Their theology makes little sense, to be sure.

Catholic and JW theology may be different, but at the same time both claim extrabiblical revelation and both are a merit based salvation, so those things are in common. No offense intended.

 

[Beth_Martin]

BethM
BethM And may I ask who gave you the authority to judge me? Who made you the authority in interpreting scripture?

I do not condemn you; only God can condemn a person.

You read the Book that the CC compiled into one set of books, is following the directions of Jesus with the Holy Spirit, has had the same teachings since Jesus founded it and 2000 years later you come in and tell us that the CC is wrong and YOU have the correct interpretation (but then you admit that you are fallible) but you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you. But you could be wrong because you’re not infallible. Now it is you who is mocking the Word of God by stating your opinions as truth.

You are only fooling yourself concerning who brought the Word of God to mankind and also fooling only yourself to believe the Catholic Church has not changed in 2000 years much less even exist for 2000 years.

As far a fallibility and infallibility; God is infallible, people are fallible. Are Christians indwelt by an infallible God; yet are fallible? Yes Did Peter demonstrate this fact when he spoke of some of the things that Paul wrote were difficult to understand and this from the leader of the 12. Could I be wrong on salvation; i could be but I am not for I have been justified by God and my sins have been removed as far as the east is from the west and i love the Lord, not as I desire to because of my sinful flesh and I do not love my neighbor as I should for the same reason, but my spirit desires these things, but the battle between the spirit and the flesh will continue on till my full redemption. For when I see Jesus, then I will be like Him.Until then I do my best to “beat my body into submision” and try not to do the things that hinder the work of the Holu Spirit in me.

BethM… your posting is just running around in circles like a chicken with its legs cut off. You just cant see the fallacy of it and your self-righteousness.

Peter did the same and so did Paul and the rest; it the problem with our sin nature which as I have mentioned before you do not seem to have a clear understanding on its nature and charater and the extent to which it effects all of creation including the Christian.

Either Jesus spoke the truth or He didnt. Either he said he would be with HIS CHURCH ALWAYS or he didn’t. When did Jesus give the command to write down what he said? When did Jesus write anything down and told his disciple to read what he had written down and everybody interpret on their own?
Jesus always speaks the truth and the author of Scripture is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirt like Jesus is God. God said interpretation is not of man, but of the Holy Spirit working through the man/woman. the real question each person needs to concern themselves with is do they have the “mind of Christ” or not? Few do and many do not according to Jesus who cannot lie.

Where is this in scripture? Scripture is innerant not infallible. and whos truth would that be since there are hundreds preaching different truths?

Jesus is with all Christians and all Christians make up the church and the church of Jesus is yet to be revealed as the entire creations waits for the “sons of man” to be revealed. We see pleanty of church’s as we drive in our cars, but not all who attend are Christians are they?

Inerrant and infallible are used synonymously in regards to Scripture; at least in my world and in many dictionaries. There are really only two truths, religions or gospels, one is all of divine accomplishment and all others are by some type of human merit working with God to enter heaven; so it is not that complicatied unless you are of the human achievment, then you have numerous varieties.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life

As shown above; I believe in the gospel of grace; all of God and as shown below.

***Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ *(by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. **

 

[Beth_Martin]

And who made you the arbiter, judge and interpreter of scripture?
Truth does not change. Jesus taught the apostles, they gave that same teaching to their disciples, and those disciples passed it on down to their successors, who eventually around 380 AD compiled all those teachings and with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit compiled the Bible and the Bible COULD NOT disagree with the teachings that the Church was handed down to them by Jesus. There were always men who took to interpreting those scripture different and thus heresies developed because they were teaching things that disagreed with the Church that Jesus founded
Montanism, Gnosticism, Arianism all these heresies before the Bible was compiled.
Pelaginism, Catharism,Iconoclasm, all these AFTER the bible was compiled. They all taught something different then what the Church was teaching.
Then came Protestantism, and they started teaching scripture alone and all sorts of different interpretations came about all claiming they had the truth and continues to this day.

You claming the Church to be wrong and you right, regretfully fall in this category.

As for me, I would rather follow the Church that Jesus founded and He said He would be with her till the end of time, rather than follow my own opinion. Many make the same claims as you do.
They know they are not infallible, but they have the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is guiding them and they know they are correct but all have different interpretations. Many claim they are the remnant but have different teachings, i.e. gospels. Again, is this what Jesus left behind?

If you want to follow the church that Jesus founded, then all are welcome to join. Keep in mind that only a few will find the entrance to His church and many of those will be unable to enter trhough Him. Also remember that His church is yet to be revealed; so if you belong to a church that has been revealed, then you can bet it is not one that Jesus founded for He does not lie. However, the church you refer may and likely does has members of the church to be revealed. I hope you are a member of His church as I am.

But then your interpretation could be wrong because you know you’re not infallible.
Does scripture say that the Bible is Pillar and Bulwark of Truth or does it say the Church is?

The church is the pillar and support of the truth, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ and the context of the truth that is to be protected by the collective body of all Christians. Your idea of church and the biblically defined church seem to differ and thus causes a serious problem in understanding the passage in question.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

TobyLue

Then came Protestantism, and they started teaching scripture alone and all sorts of different interpretations came about all claiming they had the truth and continues to this day.

Well said.

Catholicism stands on two legs: Church and Scripture.

Protestantism is a centipede standing on a thousand legs of Private Interpretation.

Can anyone believe that the early Church rested its authority on private interpretation? Is the doctrine of private interpretation stated or even implied in Scripture?

Whereas the teaching authority of the Church is abundantly indicated, both at the Council of Jerusalem and in the letters of Paul. (See Galatians 1:6I)

*I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. *

If this is not a condemnation of private interpretation, of refusing to honor the real teaching that was given by the teaching authority of the Church, what is it?

 

[rinnie]

God is the only authority concerning man and all creation. God by His grace and mercy saved me and has allowed me the privledge to understand His word and to share HIs thoughts with others. He has also said that most will reject His words and call me all kinds of things and make false accusations against me because of Him, but I will tell of His words as He has commanded out of love and obedience for Him.

God also said that the Church is the pillar of all truth. He never said that his mercy and Grace gives us the power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture. He actually said the opposite. He said to stay away from false teachers who proclaim to have this power. He said that he is sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to the Church to lead us. Sorry Beth not you.

Please read John 14 Beth. In my Fathers house there are many mantions, I am Going now to PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU, and after I have gone and prepared a place for you I shall retun to take you to MYSELF.

And Yes God is the only authority concerning Man and Creation. But Jesus breathed on the Apostles on Pentecost and said Receive the Holy Spirit. The power of the Holy Spirit is what gives the Church the power to forgive sins, change bread and wine into the living Christ.

Can you forgive my sins Beth, You claim to have this power. Can you say to me go in peace by the Power given to me I can give you absolution for all your sins. I think Not Beth.

And you also are correct Jesus did say most will reject him and his words. Most do. There are many who reject the teachings and words of the CC. The Catholic Church Beth the living Christ.

What is the Most hated Church in the world. It is the Catholic Church. Many have tried for years to bring it down. But they cannot understand they never will. Jesus promised us the devil will never over power him. The gates of hades will never prevail against the words of God the RCC.

What did Jesus say Beth at the Last Supper he said I am going to my Father, where I am going you cannot go, but when I return I shall return and take you to myself. Where did the Apostles go Beth when Jesus returned. He took them to himself by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Church.

 

[Beth_Martin]

TobyLue

Then came Protestantism, and they started teaching scripture alone and all sorts of different interpretations came about all claiming they had the truth and continues to this day.

Well said.

Catholicism stands on two legs: Church and Scripture.

Protestantism is a centipede standing on a thousand legs of Private Interpretation.

Can anyone believe that the early Church rested its authority on private interpretation? Is the doctrine of private interpretation stated or even implied in Scripture?

Whereas the teaching authority of the Church is abundantly indicated, both at the Council of Jerusalem and in the letters of Paul. (See Galatians 1:6I)

*I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. *

If this is not a condemnation of private interpretation, of refusing to honor the real teaching that was given by the teaching authority of the Church, what is it?

I wonder if you believe any Protestants who come to Christ by faith alone by His mercy and grace will enter the Kingom of heaven; do you? Do you believe anyone will enter the Kingdom who does so by the working of God along with the working of man? These represent two different gospels, which of these did Jesus teach?

Do you believe your post above is pleasing in the sight of God? If so why?

Listen to the brother of Jesus:
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law? 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:8-12

I cannot read your intentions of your heart, but the side bar discussions where you all are “patting yourselves on the back” probably disregards Jesus command to “love your neigbor as yourself”. Is this serious? I don’t know; you and Jesus will have to work that out between yourselves. I will tell you with certainty accord to the Word; there will only be a few Catholics AND a few Protestants that will find the true way to Jesus and of those some will be unable to enter according to Jesus Himself. So while you appear to make yourselves feel good about bashing Protestants; are you certain you are part of the few that have entered into God’s rest? Is that not the greater issue to be concerned about?

 

[Beth_Martin]

God also said that the Church is the pillar of all truth. He never said that his mercy and Grace gives us the power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture. He actually said the opposite. He said to stay away from false teachers who proclaim to have this power. He said that he is sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to the Church to lead us. Sorry Beth not you.

Please read John 14 Beth. In my Fathers house there are many mantions, I am Going now to PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU, and after I have gone and prepared a place for you I shall retun to take you to MYSELF.

And Yes God is the only authority concerning Man and Creation. But Jesus breathed on the Apostles on Pentecost and said Receive the Holy Spirit. The power of the Holy Spirit is what gives the Church the power to forgive sins, change bread and wine into the living Christ.

Can you forgive my sins Beth, You claim to have this power. Can you say to me go in peace by the Power given to me I can give you absolution for all your sins. I think Not Beth.

And you also are correct Jesus did say most will reject him and his words. Most do. There are many who reject the teachings and words of the CC. The Catholic Church Beth the living Christ.

What is the Most hated Church in the world. It is the Catholic Church. Many have tried for years to bring it down. But they cannot understand they never will. Jesus promised us the devil will never over power him. The gates of hades will never prevail against the words of God the RCC.

What did Jesus say Beth at the Last Supper he said I am going to my Father, where I am going you cannot go, but when I return I shall return and take you to myself. Where did the Apostles go Beth when Jesus returned. He took them to himself by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Church.

I decided to look at your post and you have reinforced the reason I do not respond to your posts. Still full of self, no love or understanding for God Holy word and no respect or love for God’s people, only appears to be love for “self”. I pray you will see the love of Christ and the love He has shown you and the rest of us. May He bless you!!

No I will not be responding unless I see a change toward love.