Sola Scriptura Revisited

[guanophore]

I have to call you out on this one. You said the Church gave us the entire OT/NT. You might call me petty for parsing words here, but God gave us the OT/NT, not the Church. The Church was just smart enough to recognize which books were clearly divinely inspired to keep the kooks from whipping up new revelations from time to time.

Actually, it is not “smarts” but the revelation of God. God worked through the Church, just as He promised, to lead them into all Truth. He guided the persons to write, preserve, promulgate, and canonize His Holy Word.

It is painfully clear that protestants hold scripture as a higher authority than tradition or the decree of any man no matter who signs his pay check.

If this were true, there would not be so much disunity in the Body.

This does not diminish the scripture because it was written by man. The scriptures we hold as canon are sufficiently established by multiple methods as reliable. Both Catholics and protestants agree to that.

I have heard it said that the errant doctrine of Sola Scriptura presupposes a canon. I have always found that rather convenient.

The only question that remains is does the Church have the authority to contradict scripture and call it infallible interpretation?

No. There is nothing in the teaching of the Church that contradicts the Scripture in any way. It cannot, for both emanate from the same Source, in whom there is no contradiction.

What does contradict is the modern innovations of interpretation that have been made by those that have been separated from the Apostolic Succession.

Sure there are some finer points of theology that might require a higher level of academics and spiritual insight to accurately interpret, but the vast majority of fundamental teachings can be figured out by an honest approach.

If this were true, there would not be so much disunity in the body. Those who are in disagreement are all sincere in their “figurings”.

The biggest problem protestants and Catholics alike have is that we get hung up on the differences and forget how many similarities we really do have in common.

Yes, I have to agree with that.

 

[Beth_Martin]

But the HS inspired the word “men”. Yes, they saw Jesus as a man, but the power was given to “men”.

Either way, you have sided with the enemies of Christ, rather than the disciples, who rejoiced that this power was given to men.

Actually, you have have it backwards because you are refusing to see where the authority resonates from. The Apostles or you or I left to ourselves are powerless against being reconciled to God. It is the Power of the gospel of God given from heaven that enables one to be reconciled to God through the work of the Holy Trinity.

As far as authority; the Word was made flesh and dwelt among men and the Word was given to men through divine revelation, which is the Gospel of God. Therefore, amyone the Father has chosen to give the “great news” through divine revelation via a preacher, a teacher, the Bible or through creation and what is written on the heart is saved if one choses to accept that message? So if you gave your neighbor the true unadulterated gospel of God, and he/she accepts you have the power to forgive because you are doing the will of the Father , which is why heaven already has forgiven and vice versa.

So where does the power and the authority lie? With God, not with man. As for the Apostles they were men with extraordinary authority to heal and to raise the dead as signs and wonders given by God on a temporary basis to establish the church.

This is why the Pope and the magersterium and the priesthood are are fallacious because they do not have an Apostolic authority and are proven trhough history to be very fallible. Give me a Pope who can raise the dead and perform other signs and wonders and I might believe in your religion. But to preach that anything outside of what God has revealed to man through the Bible is adding to the written word of God; for all of your “traditions” are written down just as all the oral traditions the Apostles spoke of are written down to the extent God wanted them revealed. We know the Apostles had been given the ability to raise the dead, heal the sick and other signs and wonders, but no Pope has.

I’m not picking on the Pope, it can be anyone who makes or has made the same claims as coming from some made up Apostolic succession which can’t even be found in Scripture. Any argument as to who is to interpret Scripture infallibly is ad nauseum argument because you will get to who is the interpreter of the infallible interpreter and who is the verifier of that interpreter etc etc. That is where the power of the HS resides and leads and guides us to the truth of the Gospel of God. You should read Colossians chapter 3 today and see how he fought this very issues.

The most important isuue is “what is the Gospel of God”? Do you know it ? Do you accept it? Is the gospel the greatest thing you have ever heard? If you do not know or you are indifferent; you have a serious spiritual issue which nedds mending.

 

[rinnie]

Hold on there buckeroo. After stepping in enough piles of BS you learn to spot them before you foot hits them. I have to call you out on this one. You said the Church gave us the entire OT/NT. You might call me petty for parsing words here, but God gave us the OT/NT, not the Church. The Church was just smart enough to recognize which books were clearly divinely inspired to keep the kooks from whipping up new revelations from time to time. Me thinks you are making a bit too much of a point in trying to smack down Beth for her beliefs. It is painfully clear that protestants hold scripture as a higher authority than tradition or the decree of any man no matter who signs his pay check. This does not diminish the scripture because it was written by man. The scriptures we hold as canon are sufficiently established by multiple methods as reliable. Both Catholics and protestants agree to that.

The only question that remains is does the Church have the authority to contradict scripture and call it infallible interpretation? Sure there are some finer points of theology that might require a higher level of academics and spiritual insight to accurately interpret, but the vast majority of fundamental teachings can be figured out by an honest approach. The biggest problem protestants and Catholics alike have is that we get hung up on the differences and forget how many similarities we really do have in common.

Um Texas sorry but according to scripture Jesus Christ is the Church. Its in the bible check it out. Saul Saul why are you persecuting me. Saul was persecuting the CC.

The Church has NEVER contradicted Scripture. It is impossible. The Church is Led by the Holy Spirit the living Christ. The Holy Spirit cannot be wrong.

We have this promise from God that the Pope and Bishops when in doctrinal unity solemnly teach doctrine which is true. We have that promise from God. He who hears yoy hears me (luke 10:16) Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven Matt 18:18)

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Actually, you have have it backwards because you are refusing to see where the authority resonates from. The Apostles or you or I left to ourselves are powerless against being reconciled to God. It is the Power of the gospel of God given from heaven that enables one to be reconciled to God through the work of the Holy Trinity.

As far as authority; the Word was made flesh and dwelt among men and the Word was given to men through divine revelation, which is the Gospel of God. Therefore, amyone the Father has chosen to give the “great news” through divine revelation via a preacher, a teacher, the Bible or through creation and what is written on the heart is saved if one choses to accept that message? So if you gave your neighbor the true unadulterated gospel of God, and he/she accepts you have the power to forgive because you are doing the will of the Father , which is why heaven already has forgiven and vice versa.

So where does the power and the authority lie? With God, not with man. As for the Apostles they were men with extraordinary authority to heal and to raise the dead as signs and wonders given by God on a [SIGN]temporary basis to [/SIGN]establish the church.

This is why the Pope and the magersterium and the priesthood are are fallacious because they do not have an Apostolic authority and are proven trhough history to be very fallible. Give me a Pope who can raise the dead and perform other signs and wonders and I might believe in your religion. But to preach that anything outside of what God has revealed to man through the Bible is adding to the written word of God; for all of your “traditions” are written down just as all the oral traditions the Apostles spoke of are written down to the extent God wanted them revealed. We know the Apostles had been given the ability to raise the dead, heal the sick and other signs and wonders, but no Pope has.

I’m not picking on the Pope, it can be anyone who makes or has made the same claims as coming from some made up Apostolic succession which can’t even be found in Scripture. Any argument as to who is to interpret Scripture infallibly is ad nauseum argument because you will get to who is the interpreter of the infallible interpreter and who is the verifier of that interpreter etc etc. That is where the power of the HS resides and leads and guides us to the truth of the Gospel of God. You should read Colossians chapter 3 today and see how he fought this very issues.

The most important isuue is “what is the Gospel of God”? Do you know it ? Do you accept it? Is the gospel the greatest thing you have ever heard? If you do not know or you are indifferent; you have a serious spiritual issue which nedds mending.

Temporary Basis. I will not leave you orphans. I am with you until the end of age!! Temporary Basis

Would love to see that scripure also. Temporary basis. I sure never saw it

 

[Beth_Martin]

One must keep in mind that this passage is written perhaps as many as 70 years after the events, and the priests had been forgiven sins on behalf of God for all that time. This experience of John is reflected in the text.

Except there were no priests as you would define a priest; the only priesthood that remained after the death of Christ is His high Priesthood with ALL Christians belonging to the royal priesthood of believers. What kind of sacrifice(s), which is always a primary function of a priestly body by definition, in the NT? Romans 12 tells us what our function as “priest” are.

***Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship. ------- Romans 12:1
*** ------ But this is what happens when one deviates from the Scripture and its authority born of God and not the traditions of men.

All those who are authorized successors of the Apostles share in this gift.

If there were true, then the Popes and all those before the current one would have been able to raise the dead, heal all the sick and would have forgiven all Catholics and maybe in his kindness pardon a few Protestants.

I am sorry, I am not following you on this. Are you suggesting that a person must be perfect in order to forgive sins?

I never knew a man/woman that could forgive sins except the God-man, who was perfect; so yes you must be perfect as He is perfect to allow salvation. What is salvation? Saved from what? Sins and its condemnation or penalty. The forgiveness of sins is salvation, they are synonymous. If you do not understand that Salvation is the forgiveness of all your sins by the blood of Jesus Christ, then you have some other Gospel than the one God gave to man and that is a deadly gospel to ones soul.

Yes. This is the message of the book of Acts. However, the book of Acts was not intended to be a complete history of the early Church. The Apostles and their successors forgave sins on behalf of Christ.

Again you are incorrect and have it backwards, it is by the power and authority of Christ that anyone’s sins are forgiven. No man can forgive a sin against God; only God can do that. God gave men/women the message from the heavenlies that salvation has come to all men whosoever will accept the gift of God, which is His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Forgiveness of sins based on the perfect sacrafice of the Son from which the Father sent and the Son being filled with the Holy Spirit fulfilled all righteousness so that as sinners who cannot by their own merit reconcile themselves to God; it is a gift. This is the Gospel of God who works it through the Trinity from start to finish. If you are a Christian this should be the greatest news one ever heard for man and woman can now be with God in His glory forever through the Lord of Glory!!

Do you think that the priests forgiving sin somehow means that God is not the Saviour?

I know of no priest in Scripture that resambles the NT, much less can forgive a sin, only the OT and that is a poor shadow of that at best in my opinion. Even that Levitical priesthood understood that God alone can forfive sins. Which is why Scripture must be the test by which any man-made teaching is approved or disapproved. Apparently you are able to see such a priesthood, but I see but one as explained in the book of Hebrews that i touched upon above…

Are you under some misunderstanding that the priests believe it is by their own power they can forgive sins?

I have a vague understanding of your priest “being the person of Christ”, but that just adds further distance between man-made teachings and revelation from God written in the Holy bible in my opinion and as you tried to twist the book of Acts above. Christ needs no one to act on behalf of Himself; He said “it is finished”; now He just decides to use messengers to offer the free gift of Salvation through a heart of repentance.

 

[Beth_Martin]

I agree with the first part of your statement but this last part is where I think that you err. There is nothing in scripture that the CC contradicts. Our Traditions are all based on scripture, and yes including the Marian doctrines which many (not all) non-catholics have trouble with.

Pssttt… notice I haven’t replied to Beth’s statements? (except in my own kitchen ) Through the grace of God and the admonishment of “viewers” I’m working on it

Are you dead serious that no Catholic teachngs contradict Scripture? Are you just pulling our legs?

 

[KathleenGee]

Sola Scriptura pretty much says it all: No church.

All about ‘my’ interpretation, I am better than you and your man made church…have people here ever studied early church history? I wish I had more education in this area…but what I have studied is very interesting and we Catholics can see our roots in history.

I am also glad to be in a church because there are too many times I misunderstand, especially in Scripture and am glad there are highly educated scholars in Scripture…many of them cross denominations and have mutual respect and affirmation of shared truths and in others, respectful disagreements as well.

 

[Beth_Martin]

I think this is a huge “hit the nail on the head statement”

Also, on another thread I was reading, someone stated this:

This is cut and paste without his/her name because I don’t know if it would be appreciated by the poster to be revealed… but I found their statement to hold much of my thoughts too and it touches on what guanophore said above

***"***Just a thought here -

One of the things that always “gets me” about debates like this over scripture interpretation is how some folks treat Catholic teaching as somehow just as “new” and open to debate as any other non-catholic teaching.

I just spent considerable time on a thread about SDA beliefs and was told time and again that I my interpretation was wrong.

I see the same thing here. The OP is declaring “our interpretation” wrong - Even though that is the interpretation held by the ancient Catholic and Orthodox Churches, as well as by the “Ancient” Protestant Curches of the Lutheren, Anglican communions.

The Truth is that the closer one gets to the Apostles, the more one sees that “the Real Presence” was universally accepted.

Why do these people, who have rejected everything except “The Book”, think that all of this ancient and consistant teaching is even up for reconsideration.

It’s not like the Catholic Church was founded last week or last year or last century…jeeshhh…

End Rant…"

May I see a written list of infallible Roman Catholic papal or consiliar statements? Then, we can add them to the Bible; after all why seperate the two since they are supposedly on equal footing. I want an authoritative list of what these messages are and where they are compiled and listed for the ignorant to view and understand; something that God in His wisdom did through the work of the Holy Spirit using men as the tool to produce such a single souce of true revelation.

 

[Nicea325]

I’ll take that as a “red herring” and that you do not want to admit that either God’s revelation has error or your Bible has error. I do not blame you; pride always makes it difficult for us to see the truth. This is what prevents most people from ever entering the Kingdom.

God bless!!

Beth

Red herring? Speak for yourself. Do not choke on your own red herring:

“…that is factual; otherwise you would see that Sola Scripture is not only taught by Jesus, the Apostles and the prophets, but by all the writers and the earliest church and many of the 1-3 generation church fathers…”

I’ll take it that you say something without taking the time to LEARN if it is even an historical fact!

Stop assuming what you think the early church fathers taught. I do not blame you for being completely IGNORANT of early church history because you rather repeat what you have been told,then to take the time to learn what they actually taught.

 

[KathleenGee]

You can pull all the documents you want, but if you are not in the spirit of the Church, you are not being led by the Holy Spirit in this particular instance.

All Catholics experience the presence of God through the Holy Spirit as the life and center of our faith, be it Pope, bishop, priest or lay. We are centered in God’s heart and these documents are understood in the spirit of faith in their appropriate context.

 

[Nicea325]

Are you dead serious that no Catholic teachngs contradict Scripture? Are you just pulling our legs?

LOL! And are you joking to believe over 40,000 thousand different denominations do not contradict scripture? If they did not then there would not exist thousands of different churches. LOL

 

[KathleenGee]

LOL!!!

 

[simspt]

I’m not picking on the Pope, it can be anyone who makes or has made the same claims as coming from some made up Apostolic succession which can’t even be found in Scripture. Any argument as to who is to interpret Scripture infallibly is ad nauseum argument because you will get to who is the interpreter of the infallible interpreter and who is the verifier of that interpreter etc etc. That is where the power of the HS resides and leads and guides us to the truth of the Gospel of God.

If succession isn’t important then why did the same Catholic episcopate who played such a foundational role in canonizing the NT appeal to historical succession as justification for their interpretation vs interpretations by those who based the validity of their interpretation solely on the scriptures? What norm do you think the Catholic Church used during the canonization process. To my understanding the rule of faith passed on in the church via historical or apostolic succession and church tradition has always been the lens through which the NT docs were interpreted. As a protestant i would think it would be comforting to you to know this historical succession existed. If it had ever been lost like some like to claim then why trust the decisions made approximately 400 years later with the establishment of the canon? Do you realize that the same people who are responsible for your cherished NT canon are the ones who have been claiming apostolic succession from the early second century onward. Do you think the church made a good decision with the canon but was simultaneously deluded in or knowingly falsified their belief about historical succession? Does it make sense to say that the 4th century church was making good decisions about the Bible but mostly poor ones about everything else? The Bible that you hold as being the only trustworthy guide for Christians was shaped from within the church. The canon historically never functioned as the sole standard which to measure everything. Before there was scripture there was faith in the early church. They used confessions, Creeds etc. IMO placing the Bible in its proper context which is the church’s tradition does not negate or diminish the authority of the Bible in the early church, i just think that authority is inadequate when displaced from the context of the community (church) and placed at the discretion of the individual.

 

[Beth_Martin]

You are right. No matter how accurate a person thinks she is, or how sufficiently they may be convinced of their point of view, if it departs from the once for all deposit of faith committted to the saints by the Apostles, then it constitutes “a different gospel”. Those who have embraced the Apostolic Teachings cannot be pursuaded to leave them.

Tell me the “Good News” Mr. or Ms. Guanaphore; I need to know if you have the Gospel of God as Paul states in Romans 1.

“Deposit of faith”? What is this the Vatican bank?

 

[Beth_Martin]

Actually, it is not “smarts” but the revelation of God. God worked through the Church, just as He promised, to lead them into all Truth. He guided the persons to write, preserve, promulgate, and canonize His Holy Word.

If this were true, there would not be so much disunity in the Body.

I have heard it said that the errant doctrine of Sola Scriptura presupposes a canon. I have always found that rather convenient.

No. There is nothing in the teaching of the Church that contradicts the Scripture in any way. It cannot, for both emanate from the same Source, in whom there is no contradiction.

What does contradict is the modern innovations of interpretation that have been made by those that have been separated from the Apostolic Succession.

If this were true, there would not be so much disunity in the body. Those who are in disagreement are all sincere in their “figurings”.

Yes, I have to agree with that.

After reading this post Mr./Ms. Guanaphore; please define what is the church of Jesus according to Scripture and then according to your church. Thanks.

 

[KathleenGee]

Where do we begin? The Vatican has the largest library in the world…so much for our ignorance of Sacred Scriptures.

What I don’t like about debating Scriptures is that it easily becomes circular and then it becomes antagonistic.

We haven’t begun and it is already proud and uncharitable.

The Word of God has a moral value for each one of us…to guide us closer to God, to instruct us, and to help us rid ourselves of sin and foolishness. We are to grow in our dependency on God and not on man made interpretations that are imperfect and even can mislead us away from Christ.

The Word of God is intertwined in Tradition, which is how the Apostles laid down the foundation of Christ’s church and its believers. Tradition is not man made. It is understanding the Word of God from the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ witnessed by His apostles and passed down through the power of the Holy Spirit through their successors. There were many ancient teachers who worked with the apostles and their successors but they themselves were not chosen to lead.

And that is the problem we have with Sola Scriptura. It is a man made interpretation of the Word of God that only leads to more fractures, divisions, and self-righteousness…which is not about God but about one’s sense of worthiness.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ Himself had followers who were unable to fully receive Him and left. There were heretics just as active in the apostles’ times as now. Heresy comes with the territory.

People essentially have issues not with the Church but with authority. So to argue Scripture you are also arguing with people’s personal hangups and their own indoctrination, form of semantics, lack of knowledge and misinterpretation of ancient histories. You have to take into account the international use of Greek in the ancient Biblical world, the use of Hebrew and Aramaic, as well as the dominance of the Roman Empire. The faith was spreading rapidly throughout the world into many regions of different people and cultures…and it was most imperative that the truth that Christ taught would be properly established. And that is the human side that has to be dealt with.

The more people turn to God the less they retain of common humanity…it is a contradiction. The Apostles Creed was the common prayer of profession of faith. What the H is wrong with that? The Nicene Creed defined Christ as True God and True Man, not because people then didn’t have anything else to do. There were serious errors about that Christ was not fully man. We lose sight of Christ’s true nature, we lose sight of our common humanity.

And that is what I am seeing – a lack of common humanity on the part of fundamentalists…oh, we can institute a Constitution of our country, have government, laws and order…but in Christ’s Church, with human inclination to error, it has no right then to teach truth, to define it???

So then we have an anarchy of belief? I do it my way? That is contrary to the spirit of Christ. Some how your leadership has indoctrinated you to hold convictions that the Church is this or that, usually based on corrupt clerics with failed faith. But you never hear of the good of the Catholic Church and its own excellence in the instruction of faith? All through history, heresy rages. If not that, then invasions and wars or plagues and pestilences. The greater part of humanity has suffered and faith has carried it through in one form or another.

Please don’t use the Word of God to condemn what you do not understand.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Sola Scriptura pretty much says it all: No church.

All about ‘my’ interpretation, I am better than you and your man made church…have people here ever studied early church history? I wish I had more education in this area…but what I have studied is very interesting and we Catholics can see our roots in history.

I am also glad to be in a church because there are too many times I misunderstand, especially in Scripture and am glad there are highly educated scholars in Scripture…many of them cross denominations and have mutual respect and affirmation of shared truths and in others, respectful disagreements as well.

Jesus said the following: "A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher." ------ Luke 6:40

You first statement says much about your relation to Luke 6 since the “church is written about in the NT” and prophesied by the OT.

I suggest first getting the One true Teacher or Father, then ask Him for guidance and wisdom to learn about Him and Christian practice (obedience) as is written in His word.

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. ----- James 1:5

I’m sorry if you find this to be offensive, but there are plenty of great teachers of Scripture that God can lead you to through prayer or supplications. Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Jerome, Calvin, Luther, and Edwards are recognized heavyweights of church history. Regardless you must first have the Holy Spirit which means knowing and accepting the Gospel of God in only one sense; its purest. Without the Holy Spirit no one will be lead or guided to the truth as stated in Scripture.

 

[Beth_Martin]

You can pull all the documents you want, but if you are not in the spirit of the Church, you are not being led by the Holy Spirit in this particular instance.

All Catholics experience the presence of God through the Holy Spirit as the life and center of our faith, be it Pope, bishop, priest or lay. We are centered in God’s heart and these documents are understood in the spirit of faith in their appropriate context.

That was the same claim of the Scribes and Pharisees, but as God has said and therefore purposed; only a remnant will enter into His Kingdom and it is the remnant that has the knowledge and has accepted the Gospel of God as stated by Paul in Romans 1. Viva Sola Scriptura for this is where one will find the Way!!

 

[Beth_Martin]

LOL! And are you joking to believe over 40,000 thousand different denominations do not contradict scripture? If they did not then there would not exist thousands of different churches. LOL

As opposed to the infallible and contradictive teachings of various councils and Popes?? Glad you find joy in your scoffing for if you believe in Jesus you will remember His commands. While your pride is excited you it is best to remember that the question was asked to the Lord; “Lord are only a few being saved?” ---- I hope you are part of the few!!