Sola Scriptura Revisited

[TobyLue]

That is your opinion, but Scripture works against that opinion especially in view of evolving religious traditions that fail to pass the Gold Standard of Scripture, which the nation and leadership of Israel gives the clearest example of what I am speaking of.

BethM - are you not stating your own opinion, that scripture works against Nicea’s opinnion? And you say that Nicea’s opinion fails to pass the Gold Standard of
scripture, but isn’t that just YOUR opinion again?
Here is the big difference.

The CC stands on a tripod; Sacred Tradition, The Holy Scripture, and the Magisterium.
Non-Catholics stand on one The Bible, and since they all have their own opinion, i.e. interpretations, they fall flat on their face, all claiming they have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them but coming up with different interpretations.

 

[Beth_Martin]

No it is not my opinion, it is a FACT! Sola Scripture is not biblical and not even taught in Scripture. It is your opinion to believe otherwise. I recommend you get out of your comfort zone and read early church history.

Here is the truth of your condition or bias toward Scripture. You have either not read the Bible, particularly the Psalms and the words of Jesus or you have read them, but are unable to comprehend them…that is factual; otherwise you would see that Sola Scripture is not only taught by Jesus, the Apostles and the prophets, but by all the writers and the earliest church and many of the 1-3 generation church fathers, but your traditions have done to you what they have done to the Pharisees in my opinion.

Look at what the Bible says in regards to the Scriptures and compare that to the “traditions of the elders”; which negated the spirit of truth found in the what? Scriptures. Do you know that in the OT when you see the phrase “the law and the prophets” it is synonymous with “the Scriptures” and the phrase “it is written” also.

Where did God say there would be “extra Biblical revelation or teachings” outside of the Scriptures that we should follow? That will lead to salvation? That speaks of the Lord and savior? That will teach obedience?

You should do a comparative study on the history of the Jews by comparing and contrasting what God gave concerning the law and the prophets and how they added tons of traditions that violated, voided and condemned so many souls, which Jesus personally stated as much. Why? Their traditions were outside of the spirit of the Scriptures.

What does God say about Israel’s errors; that we are to learn from them so as not to repeat them. If a person does not get rid of all their self righteousness and sin baggage before the Lord, they will not enter into the Kingdom. If you think you can do a ritual or a work and merit saving grace, then you are self righteous according to Biblical standards. Grace is unmerited favor bestowed upon the person who recognizes that there is nothing in themselves or nothing they can do to make things right with God; you are left totally “naked” before Him and must beg for forgiveness and see His perfection against your sinful abased self and give it all up and trust Him, not by the externals, but from the internal, the heart.

This is why He has said that few find the narrow gate and in Luke, those that do at least find it are unable to enter? Why? They come on their own understanding and their own terms of what is right and not by his pure grace, mercy and faith in the promises through Jesus who is the only way to become righteous in His sight.

Those passages in Matthew 7 and Luke 13 should scare everyone who names the name of Christ to death; it is serious and there are just a few just as with Israel there was only and always a remnant; the rest perished in their sins. Jesus said it so plainly, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me…that is dying to self and living to Christ.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Lobotme
The way I see it many think that Jesus meant to bind up all those loose writings going around into a book and call it the KJV and use it and only that. Thus we have SS.

Mock the word of God. :tsktsk:

 

[Beth_Martin]

MRI is the gold standard for diagnosis of many medical conditions. The image we get using an MRI has to be interpreted correctly. Interpretation is critically important.

MRI’s are imperfect, but the holy Spirit, who is deemed the residential truth guide is infallible trying to lead fallible people, but to the few He has chosen, they are all united in one Spirit and worship as Jesus told the Samaritan woman, which is in “spirit and truth”.

 

[VetA]

Mock the word of God. :tsktsk:

KJV is a protestant bible. not the word of God. catholic bibles are the word because the Holy Ghost guided those who put it togther. protestant bibles have seven less books because Martin Luther didnt like them:shrug:

 

[Beth_Martin]

This to me seems to be contradictory.
“According to the Gold Standard” Who set this standard and it is found in the Bible?

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit was indwelling in men who in the 4th century compiled the bible, however, those same men were not able to interpret what they claimed as being inspired by the Holy Spirit? AMOF those men aka the early Church, aka the CC, has had the same interpretation of the scriptures to the present day.

You allow Scripture to interpret itself? Where is that in scripture? I have heard this used time and time again by many non-Catholics, but when asked where is this in scripture they remain silent.
How can scripture interpret itself? There has to be somebody to interpret it.
I once asked in another forum many years ago that if two persons claimed they had the Holy Spirit in them, but came to a different interpretation of a certain verse, who determined which person was correct. The guy said, they would then search the scriptures again. I asked what if they still came up with different interpretations. I was told they would continue searching. I asked what if after exhausting their searches they still disagreed. I was told then that they would just have to agree to disagree. Now is the Holy Spirit going to give two different truths?

If you are not infallible and you are telling the Catholics here, that they have it wrong and your interpretation is correct, but you then admit that you don’t think you could ever correct receive the correct interpretation of ALL of scripture, then how do you know that the explanations you have given of scripture are correct.

And please don’t answer with the first sentence above that it is the Holy Spirit that is giving you that interpretation because you really don’t have any assurance that you are correct.

This is funny because doing a search regarding the basics, and asking many non- Catholics what are the basics, they cant even agree as to what they are.

So the contradiction here is: The Holy Spirit indwells each Christian but then that Christian is not foolish enough to think they could ever correctly received the correct interpretation.
However, since they have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them, they have the correct interpretation, but they are not fallible so they don’t claim to have all correct interpretations, but only the ones that are basic, and round and round it goes ad infinitum.

The thing is that there are hundreds if not thousands of Christians all claiming the Holy Spirit, all following the “Gold Standard” yet all coming with different interpretations.

It this what Jesus left behind? He must have been out of his mind?

The problem is with you; you do not understand the nature of sin and its effect on the natural man, much less the Christian and you do not understand one of the primary purposes of the work of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus explicitly told us.

When i say Scripture interprets itself; I mean two things. One is that if something appears to be a contradiction, then I know I am in error and need to seek the correct answer elsewhere in Scripture. The other aspect is that Scripture is God breathed and therefore is infallible; but the person (Christian) is fallible and needs the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth; the Bible says the Christian has the mind of Christ, but one must put that to use by diligent reading and studying, there is no osmosis in understanding. The core basic truth is salvation and how is one saved? What are you saved from? Why do many say Lord Lord and never enter? They never accepted the gospel, but were deceived into trusting in another gospel. You either believe that salvation is through divine accomplishment or you believe salvation comes from the divine accomplishment plus your self merit. One is all of grace and the other considered by God as “wages”. Why do you think the old man/woman must die in order to live? Why does Paul say it is no longer I that live, but Christ in me?

Interpretations of the multitudes is no surprise and is expected according to the Christians understanding because Jesus said it would be this way in Matthew 7 and Luke 13; few religious people fin the gate and the few that do find it are unable to enter through it, that is what the Bible says and that should scare the daylights out of everyone. How many times is the word “remnant” used in the OT; the few came by faith alone in trusting God and His mercy and grace and many tried to come on their own way. The same is true today. Nothing has changed; there were a remnant in the OT and there will only be a remnant in the NT because human pride and self righteousness, which denies the gospel of grace will condemn ones soul and must people are unable to deny self, pick up their cross and follow Him.

I would not concern myself about the many different interpretations; i would concern myself with making sure I am part of that remnant.

If you say that your church has not changed in it’s interpretation, then it means they have not changed, it does not mean it is correct and based on what Jesus said; it is most likely to be incorrect; particularly on the most important aspect, which is salvation, being right before God through Christ based on faith in him and not of yourself.

 

[Beth_Martin]

BethM - are you not stating your own opinion, that scripture works against Nicea’s opinion? And you say that Nicea’s opinion fails to pass the Gold Standard of
scripture, but isn’t that just YOUR opinion again?
Here is the big difference.

The CC stands on a tripod; Sacred Tradition, The Holy Scripture, and the Magisterium.
Non-Catholics stand on one The Bible, and since they all have their own opinion, i.e. interpretations, they fall flat on their face, all claiming they have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them but coming up with different interpretations.

The Bibles tripod, borrowing your context is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; I’ll stand firm on that unbendable tripod made of the Rock rather than the foundation of sand to borrow an analogy from Jesus.

 

[Beth_Martin]

KJV is a protestant bible. not the word of God. catholic bibles are the word because the Holy Ghost guided those who put it togther. protestant bibles have seven less books because Martin Luther didnt like them:shrug:

Spin it how you want before me is fine, but not God about the mocking of God’s word, which is equivilant to mocking God, that will be decided between the two parties; I’m just sounding the warning. Those DC’s contain errors and are not from God because God does not error. Some of the errors are very serious. Do your own google search and you will find the truth about what I said; yet I doubt even seeing it for yourself before your own eye’s you will still believe they are God breathed.

 

[Beth_Martin]

JV is a protestant bible. not the word of God. catholic bibles are the word because the Holy Ghost guided those who put it together. protestant bibles have seven less books because Martin Luther didn’t like them:shrug:

Martin Luther and the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with seven “so-called” missing books. The better way to state it is the Catholic Church added seven books and called them inspired (officially) as a result of the reformation, which began before Luther, but Luther was the catalyst used by God to move the reformation forward in the braodest sense.

Even Augustine recognized the DC’s as less than divine canonical as he classied or distinguished divine canon fron that which was not divine, but still used the term canon or rule.

 

[simspt]

.

When i say Scripture interprets itself; I mean two things. One is that if something appears to be a contradiction, then I know I am in error and need to seek the correct answer elsewhere in Scripture. The other aspect is that Scripture is God breathed and therefore is infallible; but the person (Christian) is fallible and needs the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth; the Bible says the Christian has the mind of Christ, but one must put that to use by diligent reading and studying, there is no osmosis in understanding.
.

Are you willing to admit that what you believe doctrinally is based on your interpretation of Scripture and those that disagree with you are also interpreting Scripture? Irenaeus of Lyons described the interpretation of Scriptures as being like placing together a grand mosaic. He argued that the Gnostic allegorizers had scattered the gems of the scriptural mosaic and configured them again to form an alien portrait. They came up with a different story line, one alien to the Church’s Rule of Faith. What made the Gnostics’ exegesis so perverted was that it was not grounded in the Church’s perspective. Today there are many diverse claimants to the Book of Books and many diverse interpretative cultures of which you belong to one whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[Nicea325]

Beth Martin:

Here is the truth of your condition or bias toward Scripture.

Bias towards Scripture? We have not even touched the context of scripture,so how could you possibly even claim I am being biased toward Scripture?

You have either not read the Bible, particularly the Psalms and the words of Jesus or you have read them, but are unable to comprehend them…

Wow! You do not even know me personally,other than what I have said here and you know for a fact I do not read the Bible? I do not comprehend scripture? More wild guessing Beth Martin?

that is factual; otherwise you would see that Sola Scripture is not only taught by Jesus, the Apostles and the prophets,

Factual-eh? Show me where Jesus EXPLICITLY taught Sola Scriptura? Chapter(s) and verse(s) where Jesus taught: All one needs is the Bible and nothing else! Oh one more thing,tell me how many books Jesus’ Bible (OT & NT) contained and what version was he using?..

but by all the writers and the earliest church and many of the 1-3 generation church fathers, but your traditions have done to you what they have done to the Pharisees in my opinion.

Oh really? The church fathers taught Sola Scriptura? Kindly provide St.Ignatius exhaustive work(s) on the DOCTRINE of Sola Scriptura and his defense of ‘the’ mother of all doctrines,since it was taught by Jesus,according to you.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Are you willing to admit that what you believe doctrinally is based on your interpretation of Scripture and those that disagree with you are also interpreting Scripture? Irenaeus of Lyons described the interpretation of Scriptures as being like placing together a grand mosaic. He argued that the Gnostic allegorizers had scattered the gems of the scriptural mosaic and configured them again to form an alien portrait. They came up with a different story line, one alien to the Church’s Rule of Faith. What made the Gnostic’s’ exegesis so perverted was that it was not grounded in the Church’s perspective. Today there are many diverse claimants to the Book of Books and many diverse interpretative cultures of which you belong to one whether you acknowledge it or not.

This is how I would describe the interpretation of Scripture and that doctrine comes from what God has revealed to the Christian; especially concerning salvation and how to enter into God’s Salvation. People that never make it into the Kingdom are often full of head knowledge; the legalistic Jewish rulers were like that and based their relation and thus their salvation upon that knowledge of the Scripture, which they called the “law and the prophets”. As Jesus put it it is not the hearers, but the doers and when you look at Scriptures carefully you will see He means doers from the heart. Not doers from the external mind acting in a routine that they believed pleased God. That is what got them into trouble because they kept adding “external doings” believing they were both pleasing God and earning heaven. It is self righteousness and the inability or willingness to let go of self or die to self to serve the Lord with all of your mind, heart, soul and strength that prevents people from entering. To do this, one must really deal with and understand the seriousness of sin in ones life and nature in view of His Holy and perfect nature. Moses gave a great example when he asked to see God’s glory and God said it would “kill him”. That speaks a lot about the contrast of our sin natures and His Holiness.

To get more to your point/question I would quote Scripture.

**6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden {wisdom} which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 {the wisdom} which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND {which} HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." --------- 1 Corinthians 2

Notice the Key phrase “which have not entered the heart of man”; this is the point I was trying to convey between the external doings versus the internal or heart doings. When the heart of man has dealt with sin and comes spiritually broken with that heart of repentance, then in the person has realized they are “DEAD” and are ready to let go of self and fully depend on the Lord and this is when the Lord opens the door by faith and by His grace and mercy, then the doing will come from a heart to serve Him with love and as a servant, not on their own, but because He is in them. The gospel of grace or the gospel of repentance. Below is the result!!

10 For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit ------ 1 Corinthians 2

Above is where that paradox of who chose whom; got makes the choice yet man is responsible. How God works this out in a fair manner is beyond all understanding, but when we come to know the truth; we will find it was fair and just I’m sure. Notice that the Christian has the spirit of “himself”, which all people do, but the Christian also has the Spirit of God and this is what separates the natural man from the Christian as the next verse speaks of below.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.- —1 Corinthians 2

Another way of stating this would be to say the “natural” man cannot understand God because they do not have the Spirit of God; whereas the Christian has not only the Spirit of God, but the mind of Christ. So where does interpretation come from? The Spirit of God “so that we may know the things freely given to us by God”.

Why the vast interpretations and different doctrines concerning salvation? Jesus told us that few find it; the entrance to heaven which is Jesus and that those that do come right up to Jesus but are unable to enter through Him as Luke 13 tells us is because of self righteousness and the inability to completely let go or kill self for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth Martin:

Here is the truth of your condition or bias toward Scripture.

Bias towards Scripture? We have not even touched the context of scripture,so how could you possibly even claim I am being biased toward Scripture?

You have either not read the Bible, particularly the Psalms and the words of Jesus or you have read them, but are unable to comprehend them…

Wow! You do not even know me personally,other than what I have said here and you know for a fact I do not read the Bible? I do not comprehend scripture? More wild guessing Beth Martin?

that is factual; otherwise you would see that Sola Scripture is not only taught by Jesus, the Apostles and the prophets,

Factual-eh? Show me where Jesus EXPLICITLY taught Sola Scriptura? Chapter(s) and verse(s) where Jesus taught: All one needs is the Bible and nothing else! Oh one more thing,tell me how many books Jesus’ Bible (OT & NT) contained and what version was he using?..

but by all the writers and the earliest church and many of the 1-3 generation church fathers, but your traditions have done to you what they have done to the Pharisees in my opinion.

Oh really? The church fathers taught Sola Scriptura? Kindly provide St.Ignatius exhaustive work(s) on the DOCTRINE of Sola Scriptura and his defense of ‘the’ mother of all doctrines,since it was taught by Jesus,according to you.

If you would like to clean your previous post by using the

, then I can address your comments one at a time.

But I will remind you of some of your statements on page 7 and further on page 7 you made an even greater emphatic statement "Either way,the whole notion of SS (regardless in what perspective you look at it) it is NOT biblical or historically accurate"

I would also comment that “holy matromony” will not be found in Scripture in the explicit fashion you are trying to demand, but we would all certainly agree that the doctrine of matrimony is strongly implicit in Scripture and thus is accepted by almost everyone on that basis; so to can what I claim be strongly implicit in Scripture. Just as some things are used as doctrine that are vagely implicit to not even implicit but taight as “holy doctrine”; yet should be dismissed in my opinion for that reason.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Beth Martin

You belong to no religion yet you are an authority on the Bible and Bible history? Whew! How did that happen?

 

[Nicea325]

If you would like to clean your previous post by using the

, then I can address your comments one at a time.

 

[T_More]

Beth, how does 1 Timothy 3:15 tie into your ideas about Sola Scriptura?

 

[Nicea325]

Beth, how does 1 Timothy 3:15 tie into your ideas about Sola Scriptura?

Hello T! Wow! I am shocked that an ex-JW is wanting to swim the Triber. Congratualtions…:tiphat: Most JW’s I have ever discussed Scripture or history are way to ‘off’ for me to even continue. I find JW’s rather annoying and tiresome…no offense.

 

[T_More]

Hello T! Wow! I am shocked that an ex-JW is wanting to swim the Triber. Congratualtions…:tiphat: Most JW’s I have ever discussed Scripture or history are way to ‘off’ for me to even continue. I find JW’s rather annoying and tiresome…no offense.

No offense taken. Their theology makes little sense, to be sure.

 

[VetA]

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

According to the Gold Standard; interpretation of Scripture comes not from man, but from the Holy Spirit indwelling each Christian. Since there are only a few true Christians compared to the number of false Christians according to the Golden Standard Bearer, the Lord Jesus; it certainly explains why there are many interpretations, many that defy even basic human logic.

I [SIGN]allow Scripture to interpret itself; and I am in no way infallible as many of you have already accused me of being in a sarcastic manner. I would be fooling myself to think I could ever correctly receive the correct interpretation of all of Scripture since the mind of God is far superior[/SIGN]. The Scripture does say that the Christian has the mind of Christ, but because of the Christian sin stains; they still will get things incorrect, but not on the basics and even some of the more complex things.

Most peoples problem in my opinion between themselves and God is they don’t fully understand sin, it nature, character and what it has done to all creation. The few that do find the narrow way but are still unable to enter as Luke tells us via the Holy Spirit is that one never drops their baggage of self righteousness to “squeeze” through the gate. That self righteous person is the person knowing all the right stuff, but never letting grace be grace by adding some external work to their salvation, thus never fully letting go of self for the promises of the free gift of God.

That is my opinion and I believe we can see this in Scripture by looking at the Sermon of the mount , the parables and the many examples of people encountered, especially by Jesus, who asked about eternal life, but were never ready to deal with their sin issues and their complete dependency on God alone for Grace by faith to the entrance.

Now you just said a mouthfull there Now what is one to do if they cannot understand the words of Christ. How could you possibly know what God is saying if you as you admitted and I admire you for that, stated you indeed do not profess the gift of the Holy Spirit to define scripture.

You must do exactly as the bible tells us. To go to the Church. Because Jesus promised the Apostles that he will give them the words. Did he Not?

Now you have to remember the Holy SPirit did not fall onto the Apostles until Pentecost. Remember the upper room. The Holy Spirit poured into the Apostles and they received the word straight from God to build up the Church and teach the word.

Remember how when the Apostles started talking every member there heard the words in their own language.

Now we are told to stick with the teaching of the APostles and go to the Church. Now how can you rely on the bible to do what it cannot do interpret scripture and teach. Is the bible a living teacher, can it explain, can it tie the O.T into the N.T. Can it tell you what Jesus said and what Jesus meant by what he said. No it cannot. The bible tells you that itself. To to the Church, Can the bible forgive yours sins for you? No it cannot this is also the Church,