Sola Scriptura

[MementoMori3283]

thank you for your interpretation:thumbsup:

Now if you claim HE did then please tell me something that has been passed down since say Pentecost that was only taught orally by the Holy Spirit and ONLY passed on orally to the present Pope.

I don’t know if orally is the correct term, but have you ever read Humane Vitae, an encyclical that was the product of Vatican II and the response by his Holiness Pope Paul VI in response to the call of some who would allow for contraception and other crimes against the dignity of human life?

Now, this is not a teaching that was orally transmitted after instruction from the Holy Spirit, and passed on from one pope to the next in succession to the present day. I don’t know who ever claimed that there was such a method:shrug:

Humane Vitae would be an example of the guidance promised by Christ. When all the learned, as well as every Christian denomination, practically demanded, by reason, the repeal of these sins against life, Pope Paul VI, guided by the Holy Spirit of Truth admonished those within and outside the Church.

please read vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

 

[NDfan]

thank you for your interpretation:thumbsup:

You’re welcome

I don’t know if orally is the correct term, but have you ever read Humane Vitae, an encyclical that was the product of Vatican II and the response by his Holiness Pope Paul VI in response to the call of some who would allow for contraception and other crimes against the dignity of human life?

Yes I have.

Now, this is not a teaching that was orally transmitted after instruction from the Holy Spirit, and passed on from one pope to the next in succession to the present day. I don’t know who ever claimed that there was such a method:shrug:

Well the Catechism on Sacred Tradition would hold this method of transmission. Apostolic teachings that are handed down orally but not written. But I think you are saying that the Pope wrote this and then passed it on. So you are using this as an example of a teaching that falls outside of scripture. I think.

Humane Vitae would be an example of the guidance promised by Christ. When all the learned, as well as every Christian denomination, practically demanded, by reason, the repeal of these sins against life, Pope Paul VI, guided by the Holy Spirit of Truth admonished those within and outside the Church.

please read vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

I wouldn’t deny that the Holy Spirit would and could guide us. But to say that the Holy Spirit only guided the Pope on this manner is kind of short sighted. Many people would agree with him on the abortion issue and could appeal to the commandment of thou shalt not commit murder. Abortion can be viewed as murder. So there’s nothing new that the Pope is doing here.

But extending a position on birth control does not mean that it is coming from GOD. The Pope is expressing his opinion and the opinion of the magisterium that it interferes with the natural course of life between 2 married people.

But how about those folks that can’t afford more children? How about women who have a medical issue and are told not to get pregnant. According to the HUMANAE VITAE a histrorectomy or vasectomy is not allowed. I believe this is between the individuals and GOD.

PEACE

 

[MementoMori3283]

But to say that the Holy Spirit only guided the Pope on this manner is kind of short sighted.

In his time, his voice was the only voice saying no. No other Christian religious organization outside of full communion with the Holy See held the position that he did. Only today, are evengelicals, et al, seeing the error of their understanding and allowing themselves to see the prophecy of our venerable brother in Christ, Pope Paul VI. Indeed, as can be understood by reading his introduction, there were many within the Church that expected him to give his blessing on contraception. Humane Vitae fell like a bomb on the Church, but today it is a pillar of strength for those who hold dear life in all its stages.

Do you have another voice from the past who spoke against contraception and foretold of the destruction it would cause?

 

[MementoMori3283]

In his time, his voice was the only voice saying no. No other Christian religious organization outside of communion with the Holy See held the position that he did. Only today, are evengelicals, et al, seeing the error of their understanding and allowing themselves to see the prophecy of our venerable brother in Christ, Pope Paul VI. **Indeed, as can be understood by reading his introduction, there were many within the Church that expected him to give his blessing on contraception. **Humane Vitae fell like a bomb on the Church, but today it is a pillar of strength for those who hold dear life in all its stages.

Do you have another voice from the past who spoke against contraception and foretold of the destruction it would cause?

Which, today, is why we have such disobedience to Christ and the teachings of the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church.

 

[honeysuckle]

I left a Catholic Church, because of its teachings:…
4)Why does the Catholic Church reject the Rapture? When The Holy Bible teaches it will be so…
… Statues, stained glass, paintings. Nobody knows how the Lord appears in all His Glory. No painting or statue could ever portray His Glory. What is seen is an artists rendition of, of how he “thinks” God looks.

Nice, YOU judge No sense in posting a subject you have disdain for.

This is exactly what I am talking about. This diatrabe is the epitome of irrational and anti-intellectual, and almost impossible to argue with because you can’t argue with a person who doesn’t even understand that by mentioning the word “Rapture” they have disproven the subject of the thread debate.

I mean, how do you get any worse than this? Here is a person saying “Sola Scriptura” in one breath and then the word “Rapture” in the other and doesn’t even recognize the irony of it.

There is no Rapture. It is a theological construct invented in 1830. Thus, believing in such a construct is impossible if you hold to a true definition of “sola scriptura”, which demands that we do not add constructs to what is plainly revealed. And the word Rapture is not written. Guess what??? The Rapture is a Protestant tradition (Oh, shocking.) WHO told you all of that Scripture proved the Rapture? Someone needs to take that person’s Bible away from them, because they don’t know what they’re doing with it.

But then, since you apparently think stained glass is evil, I mean why am I even wasting my breath?

When did Christians begin to accept that it is ok to engage in inferior thought processes? Wasn’t there a time when it was actually a sin to entertain completely un-sound thought processes? Maybe that was before television, or back when the average high school graduate knew as much as the average college graduate today. I don’t know.

 

[NDfan]

In his time, his voice was the only voice saying no. No other Christian religious organization outside of full communion with the Holy See held the position that he did. Only today, are evengelicals, et al, seeing the error of their understanding and allowing themselves to see the prophecy of our venerable brother in Christ, Pope Paul VI. Indeed, as can be understood by reading his introduction, there were many within the Church that expected him to give his blessing on contraception. Humane Vitae fell like a bomb on the Church, but today it is a pillar of strength for those who hold dear life in all its stages.

Do you have another voice from the past who spoke against contraception and foretold of the destruction it would cause?

But honestly what destruction has contraception caused? I would rather see a teen who is going to have sex use contraception than to get pregnant and abort. The true answer is of course to abstain until marriage. But even in a marriage I still think it’s between the couple and GOD to decide.

PEACE

 

[MarcoPolo]

the Bible does claim itself as the adequate and final authority, when carefully studied.

As already demonstrated, the Bible points to the Church as the final authority. Not to mention the Bible doesn’t even identify it’s own books but instead the Church did… I mean…

 

[honeysuckle]

This is exactly what I am talking about. This diatrabe is the epitome of irrational and anti-intellectual, and almost impossible to argue with because you can’t argue with a person who doesn’t even understand that by mentioning the word “Rapture” they have disproven the subject of the thread debate.

I mean, how do you get any worse than this? Here is a person saying “Sola Scriptura” in one breath and then the word “Rapture” in the other and doesn’t even recognize the irony of it.

There is no Rapture. It is a theological construct invented in 1830. Thus, believing in such a construct is impossible if you hold to a true definition of “sola scriptura”, which demands that we do not add constructs to what is plainly revealed. And the word Rapture is not written. Guess what??? The Rapture is a Protestant tradition (Oh, shocking.) WHO told you all of that Scripture proved the Rapture? Someone needs to take that person’s Bible away from them, because they don’t know what they’re doing with it.

But then, since you apparently think stained glass is evil, I mean why am I even wasting my breath?

When did Christians begin to accept that it is ok to engage in inferior thought processes? Wasn’t there a time when it was actually a sin to entertain completely un-sound thought processes? Maybe that was before television, or back when the average high school graduate knew as much as the average college graduate today. I don’t know.

The Holy Spirit has convicted me that it is better to be charitable than right. So, though I do truly wish that Fundamentalists who come here would open their minds to the truth of the Catholic church, I have to say that God be praised that you believe the Bible and believe in Jesus.

 

[brkn1]

The Holy Spirit has convicted me that it is better to be charitable than right. So, though I do truly wish that Fundamentalists who come here would open their minds to the truth of the Catholic church, I have to say that God be praised that you believe the Bible and believe in Jesus.

I understand how we both might need to be more charitable with how we disagree on what is the truth or right. You might have noticed that I tend to be fairly thick-skinned about what others say when they disagree with my beliefs and point of view. I actually prefer it when someone just says what they believe, so we can discuss our differences openly.

I also praise God that you believe in Jesus and the Bible.

 

[Seeking_God]

If Jesus fulfilled all,

You’re doubting the Redempitive work of Yeshuia? It’s not IF. Jesus HAS fullfilled all Prophecy told of Him by the OT Prophets. Jesus IS fullfilling prophecies of the NT today even as we speak! The Holy Bible says it. I believe it. Gods Word is true. No other book, beside the Bible is needed.

Hebrew Scriptures, contain over 300 prophecies about the First Coming of the Messiah. Many prophecies are repetitious. All told you have 109 separate, distinct prophecies about the First Coming of Jesus. These prophecies foretold everything about His life: where He would be born, how He would be born, He would go into Egypt, He would live in Galilee, He would heal and love people. All aspects of His ministry were prophesied. His lineage, was prophesied, He would descend from Abraham>Isaac>Jacob and David. The last days and hours of His life were prophesied in incredible detail.

The prophets said He would be betrayed, by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver, He would be lifted up, and He would be pierced in the side, in His hands and feet. Every aspect of His life and death was prophesied. There are 300 prophecies about the First Coming of Jesus in the OT, there are 500 in the OT about His Second Coming! In the NT, one of every 25 verses has to do with the Second Coming of Jesus. There are many, many more prophecies about the Second Coming of Jesus than His First Coming.

Why so many? Jesus is returning in wrath. The 1st time He came as a compassionate Savior with tears in His eyes. When He returns, He is returning as a conquering King with eyes like white hot flames. Jesus is returning to judge and make war against the enemies of God. Since God does not wish that any should perish. He has given us sign after sign to watch for the season.

then why is it so terrible to honor the day that He conquered death and rose to new life? Thereby providing sinful man the path to Heaven through the sacrifice of His body

Mis-quote NOT what I said. I said is there is no Biblical proof, God changed, nor gave the Catholic church power to change His Commandment from the Biblical day of Saturday to Sunday as the day of rest.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

why don’t Christians keep Passover, Feast of Booths, etc, etc. For according to our heavenly Father

Good question! No idea why we don’t. They are important to Praise, Honor & Glorify God. Yet, it was changed. Why is The Birth of Jesus celebrated on Dec. 25th? What do the Jewish people celebrate on that date? Jesus was not born on that date tradition of man? Biblical proof says otherwise.

Easter: Most Catholics celebrate with ham! as a food staple. Unclean food, not just for Jewish people, but all people! Notice our birthdays fall on a different calendar day each year, as does Christmas. Why not Easter ? It’s always a Sunday closest to the spring equineox. Any insight on that?

Catholics, and most Christians, do not dishonor God in honoring the Son, in much the same way it is impossible to dishonor the Son by honoring the mother

Proof? PM me an email addy so i can send pics.Catholic Church Puts Mary On The Cross
watchman.wowprayerministry.com/2007/10/01/roman-catholic-church-puts-mary-on-the-cross-.aspx
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH PUTS MARY ON THE CROSS, www.wayoflife.org fbns@wayoflife.org In spite of claims of contemporary Catholic propagandists, the Roman Catholic Church worships Mary. She is exalted as the sinless Mother of God who was bodily assumed into Heaven and crowned Queen of the Universe. According to Roman Catholic doctrine, Mary sits on Jesus’ throne and acts as His Co-Mediatrix.

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION.
jesus-is-lord.com/coredeem.htm

Finally, we can not rely upon the Bible alone

WOW. I can’t believe you posted that :bigyikes:
2 Thessalonians 2:3. Jesus refers to it in Matthew 24 Paul refers to it in 2 Timothy 3:5. Paul refers to the apostasy of the professing church in 2 Timothy 4:1. He says we are to preach the Word in the end times because “the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside into myths. All kinds of myths, all kinds of heresies. All kinds of gross apostasy.

The Church at large today, you find Christian spokesmen denying the fundamental truths of the Bible - denying the words of Jesus, denying the virgin birth, denying the Resurrection, denying the Second Coming. Most seminaries spend their time disparaging the Bible, arguing that it is Man’s search for God rather than God’s revelation to Man. Mainline Protestant denominations seem intent on spiritualizing everything in the Bible. You can find apostasy at the conservative end of the spectrum among fundamentalist groups that argue the Holy Spirit retired in the first century.

No area of Christianity is immune to apostasy that is sweeping through the Church today, it’s a sign of the soon return of Jesus.

Jesus is coming soon, and I cry from the depths of my heart, “Maranatha!” Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

 

[Seeking_God]

This thread does demonstrate why Catholics should be careful when “casting stones”, using Scripture, to disprove those who hold to the Bible as having the final say in matters of understanding God’s revelation of His Purpose and Will. The Holy Spirit is the guide in any true interpretation of God’s Word and the Bible does claim itself as the adequate and final authority, when carefully studied.

There are many things that Catholics believe that can not really be found in Scripture, unless one gets “poetic” with interpreting it.
Transubstantiation, purgatory, Marian doctrine, indulgences, Faith also necessary in RCC for salvation, etc.

This thread went from quoting Scripture to disprove Sola Scriptura onto quoting non-scriptural proofs and sayings. There is a lack of being consistent when using this method. There are other sources that Catholics rely on to prove what they believe. Quoting Scripture to disprove other beliefs does not have all that much validity, if you do not hold that requirement for yourself also.

May we all be found in His Grace and Peace on that Day.

Amen

 

[MementoMori3283]

But honestly what destruction has contraception caused?

its not only the contraception, its the ideology that comes with it as well - i.e. abortion is now a major form of contraception

it was touted <to solicit, peddle, or persuade importunately> as a marriage saver???

it was touted< to make much of promote, talk up> as an abortion ender???

it continues to be touted???

But to return to the original question, Pope Paul VI was not led by man, he did not “hear” his words from man, he was guided by the Truth…

 

[MementoMori3283]

You’re doubting the Redempitive work of Yeshuia? It’s not IF. Jesus HAS fullfilled all Prophecy told of Him by the OT Prophets. Jesus IS fullfilling prophecies of the NT today even as we speak! The Holy Bible says it. I believe it. Gods Word is true. No other book, beside the Bible is needed.

Hebrew Scriptures, contain over 300 prophecies about the First Coming of the Messiah. Many prophecies are repetitious. All told you have 109 separate, distinct prophecies about the First Coming of Jesus. These prophecies foretold everything about His life: where He would be born, how He would be born, He would go into Egypt, He would live in Galilee, He would heal and love people. All aspects of His ministry were prophesied. His lineage, was prophesied, He would descend from Abraham>Isaac>Jacob and David. The last days and hours of His life were prophesied in incredible detail.

The prophets said He would be betrayed, by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver, He would be lifted up, and He would be pierced in the side, in His hands and feet. Every aspect of His life and death was prophesied. There are 300 prophecies about the First Coming of Jesus in the OT, there are 500 in the OT about His Second Coming! In the NT, one of every 25 verses has to do with the Second Coming of Jesus. There are many, many more prophecies about the Second Coming of Jesus than His First Coming.

Why so many? Jesus is returning in wrath. The 1st time He came as a compassionate Savior with tears in His eyes. When He returns, He is returning as a conquering King with eyes like white hot flames. Jesus is returning to judge and make war against the enemies of God. Since God does not wish that any should perish. He has given us sign after sign to watch for the season.
Mis-quote NOT what I said. I said is there is no Biblical proof, God changed, nor gave the Catholic church power to change His Commandment from the Biblical day of Saturday to Sunday as the day of rest.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Good question! No idea why we don’t. They are important to Praise, Honor & Glorify God. Yet, it was changed. Why is The Birth of Jesus celebrated on Dec. 25th? What do the Jewish people celebrate on that date? Jesus was not born on that date tradition of man? Biblical proof says otherwise.

Easter: Most Catholics celebrate with ham! as a food staple. Unclean food, not just for Jewish people, but all people! Notice our birthdays fall on a different calendar day each year, as does Christmas. Why not Easter ? It’s always a Sunday closest to the spring equineox. Any insight on that?
Proof? PM me an email addy so i can send pics.Catholic Church Puts Mary On The Cross
watchman.wowprayerministry.com/2007/10/01/roman-catholic-church-puts-mary-on-the-cross-.aspx
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH PUTS MARY ON THE CROSS, www.wayoflife.org fbns@wayoflife.org In spite of claims of contemporary Catholic propagandists, the Roman Catholic Church worships Mary. She is exalted as the sinless Mother of God who was bodily assumed into Heaven and crowned Queen of the Universe. According to Roman Catholic doctrine, Mary sits on Jesus’ throne and acts as His Co-Mediatrix.

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION.
jesus-is-lord.com/coredeem.htm
WOW. I can’t believe you posted that :bigyikes:
2 Thessalonians 2:3. Jesus refers to it in Matthew 24 Paul refers to it in 2 Timothy 3:5. Paul refers to the apostasy of the professing church in 2 Timothy 4:1. He says we are to preach the Word in the end times because “the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside into myths. All kinds of myths, all kinds of heresies. All kinds of gross apostasy.

The Church at large today, you find Christian spokesmen denying the fundamental truths of the Bible - denying the words of Jesus, denying the virgin birth, denying the Resurrection, denying the Second Coming. Most seminaries spend their time disparaging the Bible, arguing that it is Man’s search for God rather than God’s revelation to Man. Mainline Protestant denominations seem intent on spiritualizing everything in the Bible. You can find apostasy at the conservative end of the spectrum among fundamentalist groups that argue the Holy Spirit retired in the first century.

No area of Christianity is immune to apostasy that is sweeping through the Church today, it’s a sign of the soon return of Jesus.

Jesus is coming soon, and I cry from the depths of my heart, “Maranatha!” Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

Forgive me if I am wrong, but it appears your reading comprehension is suspect at best, and, therefore, you are easily led astray at which time your disordered personality allows for compulsive behavior which renders a conversation fruitless.

Lasagna and penil, and not one bit of it was sacrificed to a false god and then consumed

 

[MementoMori3283]

MementoMori3283:

Finally, we can not rely upon the Bible alone

Seeking _God:

WOW. I can’t believe you posted that :bigyikes:

I’m sorry. I thought the discussion was on Sola Scriptura.

I will now provide a link to a major problem for the differences encountered with interpretation:

Main Entry: fo·rum

1 a: the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b: a public meeting place for open discussion c: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas
2: a judicial body or assembly : court
3 a: a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b: a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities

 

[Seeking_God]

so… who is interpreting scripture properly?

But again… fact is… no one taught scripture alone until ~1500…

odd if you ask me…

Just an observation…

In Christ

I thought Jesus was the first to teach from Scripture alone. Then the Apostles.

God Bless

 

[MementoMori3283]

I thought Jesus was the first to teach from Scripture alone. Then the Apostles.

Jesus taught by the authority given to Him by God.

When needed, Jesus referenced Scripture.

 

[Evlogitos]

For the folks who acknowledge sola scriptura (Scripture alone):

Let’s do a little thought exercise.

Suppose, hypothetically, that when Christ founded the Church, He intended that His perfect teaching be passed down not only through the Spirit-inspired writings of His disciples, but also through the Spirit-inspired oral preaching and leadership of the Apostles and those who came after them.

Suppose, instead of Scripture alone, Christ intended that the Truth also be passed on and safeguarded through the organic and unbroken continuity of the Church and her leaders, as a guarantee against false and novel interpretations.

What sort of evidence would we expect to see, both in Scripture and in history, that this was so? What would look different? Would the Bible have anything changed about it, and if so, what would change? What historical figures or events might be altered?

 

[living_water]

Would the Bible have anything changed about it, and if so, what would change?

What a ridiculous question. Would the “Bible” that appeared magically from the clouds the day after Jesus was crucified have anything “changed” about it? Is that what you’re asking?

The “Bible” did not exist until the canon was established by the Church, so when you are capable of acknowledging the true signficance of that, and its implications for where true authority rests, then you have answered your own question.

You might also contemplate the changes to the canon that Luther began, such as removing the book of James from the canon, and then think about whether the authority of written scripture nullifies the authority of the Church, as you suppose.

 

[Evlogitos]

I was actually looking for answers from Sola Scriptura Protestants. Thanks anyway, though.

 

[living_water]

This is a Catholic forum.