Sola Scriptura

[Evlogitos]

The Spirit has given me pause to consider the term (presuppositionalist) you used to describe a person such as myself.
After a little research in the dictionary, I reject that term

I would be delighted if you did. However, I am inclined to doubt that you in fact do reject a presuppositional approach to faith. This is suggested by your statements to the effect that you have no rational, external basis for your acceptance of your canon of Scripture, basing them instead on your subjective impression of them through subjective “witness of the Spirit.” Your approach is, in effect, the logical fallacy of begging the question:

Question: How do you know your canon of Scripture is correct?
You: The Spirit testifies to me that my canon is correct.
Q: And how do you conclude that you may reliably depend on the witness of the Spirit?
Y: My interpretation of Scripture says so.
Q: But how do you know what books are Scripture, and therefore legitimate for you to interpret?
Y: The Spirit tells me so.

But of course the only way you conclude that it is indeed the Spirit telling you so is by recourse to the very canon of Scripture that is in question (“test the spirits, to see if they are of God”). As such, when asked this particular question, your answer presupposes the truth of your premises.

In other words, the Scriptures tell you that the Spirit can tell you what is and isn’t inerrant Scripture. But this conclusion cannot logically be reached, unless you presuppose from the outset that you know which books are inerrant Scripture.

and cast it back onto the Roman Catholic Church.

Cast away, brother. I’m not Roman Catholic.

And I remain very interested in your answers.

 

[honeysuckle]

My response will have to depend upon the Holy Spirit’s timing, so you must be patient in the mean time. It may never happen, but one never knows.

The Spirit has given me pause to consider the term (presuppositionalist) you used to describe a person such as myself.
After a little research in the dictionary, I reject that term and cast it back onto the Roman Catholic Church.

An example of why I do so might come from my agreement with what an anti-RCC said about the following:

“Q.—Upon what fallacies does the doctrine of Indulgences rest?”

“A.—1. It (presupposes) that God’s chastisement of love is penal and propitiatory, and that such chastisement extends to life beyond the grave. 2. It (presupposes) that the works of the saints are not only meritorious, but superabundant. 3. It (pressuposes) that to the Pope is committed the general guardianship of ‘the celestial treasures’.”

There is a whole lot of pressupositionalism in that topic alone, though I do not wish to go further into it. I hope it gives sufficient reason why I reject the term.

I might respond to your questions later, but I will not presuppose that you would be all that interested after this post. We should, at least, both be clear about the use of the word “presuppositionalist”.

Wow. I thought that perhaps I was being unfair for characterizing you and Seeking God as irrational, and I felt guilty for being so brash, and was truly admiring the patient and godly way that Evlogitos was asking you to open your mind and debate the merits of the Catholic/Orthodox position on where we derive spiritual authority… even if you chose not to agree…

But then you respond like this. And what can you say? I mean, are you proud of taking the term “presuppositionalist” and using it in a way that it completely out of context to the issue at hand, and unfair? Are you proud of yourself for that? Do you honestly think that God wants you to base your understanding of your faith and the faiths of others on faulty reasoning and prejudice?

You’ve basically said, “I cannot defend my Bible-only view of spiritual authority, at least based on what I know now, but rather than admit that, I will attack the Catholic church, because I know they are evil and wrong and I am right.”

Seems like you must be afraid of something, but I am not sure what it is. So many things about the Christian faith make such wonderful, coherent sense when they are understood in light of history, and the authority of the Bible is one of those things that becomes clear and rational when we understand that people were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible, and those *people *are the Church, and the dwelling place of God, and because the Church is where God dwells, it is from where spiritual authority flows.

 

[brkn1]

Wow. I thought that perhaps I was being unfair for characterizing you and Seeking God as irrational, and I felt guilty for being so brash, and was truly admiring the patient and godly way that Evlogitos was asking you to open your mind and debate the merits of the Catholic/Orthodox position on where we derive spiritual authority… even if you chose not to agree…

But then you respond like this. And what can you say? I mean, are you proud of taking the term “presuppositionalist” and using it in a way that it completely out of context to the issue at hand, and unfair? Are you proud of yourself for that? Do you honestly think that God wants you to base your understanding of your faith and the faiths of others on faulty reasoning and prejudice?

You’ve basically said, “I cannot defend my Bible-only view of spiritual authority, at least based on what I know now, but rather than admit that, I will attack the Catholic church, because I know they are evil and wrong and I am right.”

Seems like you must be afraid of something, but I am not sure what it is. So many things about the Christian faith make such wonderful, coherent sense when they are understood in light of history, and the authority of the Bible is one of those things that becomes clear and rational when we understand that people were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible, and those *people *are the Church, and the dwelling place of God, and because the Church is where God dwells, it is from where spiritual authority flows.

I obviously hit a nerve here by your response.
You may think about my character however you wish.
It is OK if you write whatever I say off as irrational, since I’m not inclined to put much faith in any defense that uses non-biblical reasoning. We would probably have no problem, if we stayed strickly in the Word of God to do our reasoning. The arguments using outside sources for proof against my accepting the rule of Scripture come across as just nonsense to someone such as myself.

If the RCC wants to present proof of their authority to be the sole interpreter of Scripture, then why have they not written at least ONE RCC-approved commentary on a book of the Bible that can be carefully examined to show the exact meaning of each word and verse of that book? They can’t do it, because it will contradict many of their presuppositions in their other invented books of traditions etc, which they somehow hold equal to God’s Word. Having been a part of assembling the written Scripture does not give any group a right to take over the Holy Spirit’s role in making that Scripture real to Christ’s church members. The Holy Spirit is the only One Who does that work.
I reject any attempts to claim otherwise as unscriptural and therefore irrational and false.

If you could point me to an Vatican-approved RCC commentary on any book of the Bible, please do so. Otherwise, we best stick with the Bible as far as I’m concerned.

 

[po18guy]

God’s message is recorded in the Bible. It was written by holy people who were guided by the Holy Spirit. We can trust the Bible because it is God’s book. We can also be confident that it is the sure guide to Heaven. The Holy Scriptures “are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 3:15).

Some of God’s message is recorded. But, it’s incomplete. See Luke 3:18, John 20:30 and 21:25, as well as Acts 2:40. Of course it’s inspired and useful, but it was not used by early Christians because it didn’t exist as a bible until the fourth century. Are the early believers in hell because they had no bible? No? Then the bible isn’t even necessary. :bigyikes: We are extremely blessed to have it, though.

What about church tradition? Jesus warned us against tradition (Mark 7:1-13). He accused the Jews that they were “making the word of God of no effect through your tradition.” They should have remained faithful to the written Word.

They did remain faithful to the word. That’s the problem. They kept the letter of the Law and abandoned the Spirit. And Jesus condemned the Pharisaic traditions. Read about them to see what he was actually condemning. Nowhere is church tradition mentioned in the bible, except where Paul admonishes us to keep it. See 2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” Those teachings (Traditions) were not all written down. Where does that leave you?

Similarly, church tradition has changed the clear teaching of the Bible. For instance, the church commends the veneration of statues even though the second commandment forbids the making of graven images and bowing down before them (Exodus 20:4).

Boy! (Girl!) do you have this 100% wrong! Any veneration is of the person, the Saint, the human, immortal soul created by God that the statue represents. Is there is cross in your church or on your bible? Don’t be an idolator! Tear it off! Would doing this make any sense at all? God has even commanded men to make graven images. Need the scripture citations? Catholics bow down to and worship nothing but God. To quote a really famous guy “You are greatly mislead”.

The Midnight Cry and the Rapture of the Church
lightsource.com/ministry/love_worth_finding/

Talk about man-made tradition! The “rapture” is 100% non-biblical and was made by man in the 1800s. Sorry, but we’re all gonna suffer. Christ said so. It’s in the bible. Need the scripture to show this?

I certainly don’t expect you to believe any of this. Those who have assembled your church’s traditions and beliefs are absolutely sincere. We simply believe they are wrong, and call them to a deeper relationship with Christ than they have ever experienced.

You are wearing Protestant glasses. You must take them off to see clearly into the early church. In any case, keep seeking the truth.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[brkn1]

I would be delighted if you did. However, I am inclined to doubt that you in fact do reject a presuppositional approach to faith. This is suggested by your statements to the effect that you have no rational, external basis for your acceptance of your canon of Scripture, basing them instead on your subjective impression of them through subjective “witness of the Spirit.” Your approach is, in effect, the logical fallacy of begging the question:

Question: How do you know your canon of Scripture is correct?
You: The Spirit testifies to me that my canon is correct.
Q: And how do you conclude that you may reliably depend on the witness of the Spirit?
Y: My interpretation of Scripture says so.
Q: But how do you know what books are Scripture, and therefore legitimate for you to interpret?
Y: The Spirit tells me so.

But of course the only way you conclude that it is indeed the Spirit telling you so is by recourse to the very canon of Scripture that is in question (“test the spirits, to see if they are of God”). As such, when asked this particular question, your answer presupposes the truth of your premises.

In other words, the Scriptures tell you that the Spirit can tell you what is and isn’t inerrant Scripture. But this conclusion cannot logically be reached, unless you presuppose from the outset that you know which books are inerrant Scripture.

Cast away, brother. I’m not Roman Catholic.

And I remain very interested in your answers.

Hi, You will have to wait for my response later, since I must get to work right now. It would be nice if you explained exactly what you believe the answers should be and whether you are a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, etc. Giving me some idea of where you plan to go with this Q&A would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[po18guy]

Are there any condemnations of Scripture?

Saint John pointed to the limitation of scripture alone:

2 John 1:12 “I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.”

3 John 1:13-14 “I have much to write you, but I do not want to do so with pen and ink. I hope to see you soon, and we will talk face to face…”

This tends to indicate that scripture is somehow incomplete. Scripture specifically says its incomplete in Luke 3:18, John 20:30 and 21:25, as well as Acts 2:40. There must be more to the message than just that which they had the time to write.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Evlogitos]

Brother brkn1,

It is OK if you write whatever I say off as irrational, since I’m not inclined to put much faith in any defense that uses non-biblical reasoning. We would probably have no problem, if we stayed strickly in the Word of God to do our reasoning. The arguments using outside sources for proof against my accepting the rule of Scripture come across as just nonsense to someone such as myself.

Very interesting. I apologize if my logic was ill-phrased. But, as always, I do have some questions:

-Does it bother you that, before at least 367 A.D., it was impossible to stay strictly within the Scriptures to do Christians reasoning? Why or why not?

-Does it bother you that there was no such thing as purely Biblical reasoning before 95 A.D., when the last book of the New Testament was written? Why or why not?

If the RCC wants to present proof of their authority to be the sole interpreter of Scripture, then why have they not written at least ONE RCC-approved commentary on a book of the Bible that can be carefully examined to show the exact meaning of each word and verse of that book?

There are many extensive commentaries on the books of Scripture in both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, sometimes dating back over fifteen hundred years ago to the Early Church. For example, Ephrem of Syria (306-373AD) wrote commentaries on the Gospels, and on the first five books of the Old Testament. Cyril of Alexandria (378-444AD) wrote famous commentaries on the Old Testament, and the Gospel of John. (I believe you can read an English translation on the latter here.) Gregory of Nyssa (335-~400AD) wrote a commentary on the Song of Solomon. All of these are recognized and “approved” by both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

There are several more modern writers unique to Orthodox Church who have written commentaries as well. For example, Philaret Drozdov of Moscow (1821-1867AD) wrote a commentary on Genesis. Averky Taushev (+1976) wrote a commentary on the Book of Revelation, which I actually own.

Hi, You will have to wait for my response later, since I must get to work right now. It would be nice if you explained exactly what you believe the answers should be and whether you are a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, etc. Giving me some idea of where you plan to go with this Q&A would be helpful. Thanks.

Looking forward to it!

As to where I plan to go with the Q&A: I am interested in how you, as a Protestant, view certain historical facts and reconcile them with your faith. I love learning, and exchanging ideas, so I’m really curious as to what your response is. As such, because I’m keeping an open mind at this point, I decline to state what I believe the answers should be, 'til I hear your perspective.

As you suggest, I am indeed a sinful but devoted follower of, and believer in, Jesus Christ. I am a Bible-believing Christian who does his best to keep to the same Faith that Jesus gave to the Apostles.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Some problems I have with your interpretation of scripture:

1 Tim 3:15
“[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

You say:

Jesus is the pillar of Truth.

1 Timothy 3:15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Now where in 1 Tim 3:15 does it say that Jesus is the pillar and ground of truth?

John 14:6 has Jesus saying "[6] "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. "

Jesus IS the truth, not merely the pillar and ground of truth.

It is the Church who upholds Jesus(therefore is a pillar for Jesus).

It is the Church who defends Jesus(therefore is a bulwark for Jesus).

It is the Church that Jesus founded-a body of people with a visable authority that was the apostlesand those whom they appointed as bishops. The Catholic Church doesn’t preach “a building” as you put it but Christ as the living cornerstone and His people who form His temple.

Notice in Acts 2 that it wasn’t the Bible that the disciples devoted themselves to but the “teachings of the apostles, the breaking of bread, and the prayers.” No Bible because the Church came before the Bible.’

The Rapture:

Now I don’t know which “rapture” you believe in beit pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation.

But I have a few questions.

One, if there is a pre-trib or a mid-trib rapture, how do you explain
John 6:
[40] For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
[44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

If there is a pre-trib or post-trib rapture why does Jesus say that the resurection of the dead will happen on the Last Day?

And one more:
Mat 24:
[37] As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
[38] For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
[39] and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
[40] Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
[41] Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
[42] Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

And:
Luke 17:
[26] As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of man.
[27] They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
[28] **Likewise as it was in the days of Lot **-- they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built,
[29] but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all –
[30] so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Notice Jesus is compairing His coming to the days of Noah and Lot.

Now in the days of Noah when the flood came who was taken?

The bad guys!

Who was left behind? Noah and his family.

In the days of Lot when Sodom was destroyed who was taken away?

The bad guys!

Who was left behind? Lot and his daughters!

So if we interpret these verses correctly that the good guys were the ones left behind and the bad guys were taken away how can you say that there is a rapture?

Three:
Peter.

If Peter was not the leader of the Church how do you explain Acts 15:7?

"[7] And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, **that by my mouth **the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.”

 

[po18guy]

I love Proverbs 30:6 and also this in the book of Revelation, God delivers this blistering warning about tampering with His written Word:

God told us, through John, not to change the Apocalypse. That was the “book” he spoke of, since the “bible” didn’t exist for almost 300 years after. Do you really want to know exactly what in scripture has been changed? Your bible has. Luther both added to it and took away from it, by his “own authority”. He added one misleading word and ripped out seven whole books. Yes, God warned about this! The Catholic church has had its hands off scripture, since it completed the canon.

Where does God want people to obtain their doctrine… from a priest - or from the Bible?

Both! God sent Christ, who sent Apostles. Christ did not write anything for us to read. He did not write a bible, He did not command them to write a bible. He did not teach from a bible. He did not hand out bibles. He could have, but did not. Why? We are blessed to have the bible, but it is NOT everything. It is incomplete and says so in Luke 3:18, John 20:30 and 21:25 as well as Acts 2:40.

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Timothy 3:16

Catholics believe this 100% Notice it says “all scripture” and not “scripture is all”. Big difference. It says it is “profitable”. If it was all, it would say so. It does not.

Since the Catholic church was not yet in existence when Paul penned these words, he could not have been referring to the teachings of Catholicism.

You are simply mistaken here, that;s all. Consider: the Catholic church has an unbroken line of Apostolic succession from Christ to Benedict XVI. Every Catholic Priest can trace his ordination back to one of the twelve. The laying on of hands and the passing on of authority. Just as Judas was replaced with Matthias. A recently formed church (the past 500 years is recent) cannot be superior to that.

“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the (Pharisaic) tradition of men…” Mark 7:7-8
Jesus was upset that the Pharisees had elevated their (Pharisaic) tradition above God’s Word because He knows that the Word of God leads people to eternal life, while the (Pharisaic) traditions of men lead people to eternal destruction.

Jesus is the Word, not any book, no matter how much some people seem to worship it. You are still in the dark about what Jesus was actually condemning.

God’s unchanging Word (Surely, you mean Jesus!) has always been the final authority, never the (Pharisaic) traditions of men:

When Paul preached the Word of God to these people, it was not Catholic doctrine because Catholicism didn’t exist yet

OK. Who told you this, and what was his or her authority? I suggest you read Scott Hahn’s conversion story. (chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm) He began much as you have. He sought the truth, just as you do.

“Have I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” Galatians 4:16

NO! You are a brother/sister in Christ. You are just greatly mislead about church history. We pray for you. The interpretation you have been taught is very recent and sadly without authority, because the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15 “…if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

You are seeking the truth. God bless you! Keep seeking the truth, whatever you do. Here, you will be able to learn that the Catholic church is not the horrible monster that it has been made out to be.

Christ’s peace.

 

[honeysuckle]

I obviously hit a nerve here by your response.
You may think about my character however you wish.
It is OK if you write whatever I say off as irrational, since I’m not inclined to put much faith in any defense that uses non-biblical reasoning. We would probably have no problem, if we stayed strickly in the Word of God to do our reasoning. The arguments using outside sources for proof against my accepting the rule of Scripture come across as just nonsense to someone such as myself.

If the RCC wants to present proof of their authority to be the sole interpreter of Scripture, then why have they not written at least ONE RCC-approved commentary on a book of the Bible that can be carefully examined to show the exact meaning of each word and verse of that book? They can’t do it, because it will contradict many of their presuppositions in their other invented books of traditions etc, which they somehow hold equal to God’s Word. Having been a part of assembling the written Scripture does not give any group a right to take over the Holy Spirit’s role in making that Scripture real to Christ’s church members. The Holy Spirit is the only One Who does that work.
I reject any attempts to claim otherwise as unscriptural and therefore irrational and false.

If you could point me to an Vatican-approved RCC commentary on any book of the Bible, please do so. Otherwise, we best stick with the Bible as far as I’m concerned.

You’ve totally misinterpreted my response.

It is entirely untrue that this is “un-biblical reasoning”. In fact, I guarantee you that you would not be able to find one Protestant Bible scholar who would call any of the ideas presented here “un-biblical”. That’s because this isn’t a theological discussion of the merits of Sola Scriptura at all, it’s several people attempting to demonstrate facts about Church history to you, and you blocking them out.

There is a something called “Bibliolatry”. I would suggest looking that term up in the dictionary.

 

[SyCarl]

Saint John pointed to the limitation of scripture alone:

2 John 1:12 “I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.”

3 John 1:13-14 “I have much to write you, but I do not want to do so with pen and ink. I hope to see you soon, and we will talk face to face…”

This tends to indicate that scripture is somehow incomplete. Scripture specifically says its incomplete in Luke 3:18, John 20:30 and 21:25, as well as Acts 2:40. There must be more to the message than just that which they had the time to write.

Christ’s peace.

First, simply because one book does not claim to contain everything does not mean that it is not included elsewhere in Scripture.

Referring to John 20:30 should not be done without considering the following verse.

Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
(John 20:30-31 NASB)

We are told that Jesus performed many other signs. It says nothing of teachings. What signs does Tadition say Jesus did that are not recorded in one of the Gospels?

Also John tells us the purpose of his writing. He wrote that we may believe. If we read what he wrote we have what we need to believe. What is the result of believing? It is to have life in Jesus name. John is telling us that by reading his book we can believe in Jesus and be saved. If one book contains what we need then even moreso the entire Bible.

John 21:25 tells us that Jesus did many other things. A similar question can be asked as with John 20:30. What things does Tradition tell us that Jesus did that are not recorded in the Gospels?

 

[brkn1]

You’ve totally misinterpreted my response.

It is entirely untrue that this is “un-biblical reasoning”. In fact, I guarantee you that you would not be able to find one Protestant Bible scholar who would call any of the ideas presented here “un-biblical”. That’s because this isn’t a theological discussion of the merits of Sola Scriptura at all, it’s several people attempting to demonstrate facts about Church history to you, and you blocking them out.

There is a something called “Bibliolatry”. I would suggest looking that term up in the dictionary.

Hi honeysuckle,
You have convinced me to respond to Elogitos, hopefully when I get a chance later this evening. I’m sure you will be able to rip any response I give all apart with your able reasoning. You were correct that I fear this possibility, but I may still yet venture into harms way.

I have not looked up that big word “Bibliolatry”, but my guess, from what I have seen in pictures of pagan idolatry, is that it has something to do with putting a Bible on a pedestal, and then lighting some candles and kneeling before the idol in a worshipful manner. Well, you do not need to worry about me doing such an unbiblical thing. God warns against such idolatry.

 

[po18guy]

First, simply because one book does not claim to contain everything does not mean that it is not included elsewhere in Scripture. Referring to John 20:30 should not be done without considering the following verse.

My opinion varies from yours, and it is useless, as I may have formed it without the authority to do so.

We are told that Jesus performed many other signs. It says nothing of teachings. What signs does Tadition say Jesus did that are not recorded in one of the Gospels?

The other signs are lost to antiquity. It just shows that scripture is not the whole story.

Also John tells us the purpose of his writing. He wrote that we may believe. If we read what he wrote we have what we need to believe.

Then how come over a billion souls do not believe? Something is missing from the printed page.

John 21:25 tells us that Jesus did many other things. A similar question can be asked as with John 20:30. What things does Tradition tell us that Jesus did that are not recorded in the Gospels?

You have to get that list from the Eastern Orthodox church! Actually, the traditions are the teachings and practices of the Apostles, and not all they taught and did was written. It was handed on, and continues to be. Many refuse to believe even that which is written, since they lack the tradition that produced the NT. Paul spoke and wrote of tradition. To know and understand the traditions that were handed on, wouldn’t you look to what the Apostolic practices of the earliest church were?

Simply put, no book can be complete. Jesus did not invest all authority in Heaven and on earth in a printed page, no matter how sacred it is held. He founded a church and gave it all authority. Writings are sterile and easily misinterpreted. The live teacher can correct error, which the printed page cannot.

Jesus remains a wonderful concept to all. His reality drives many away.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Seeking_God]

[Talk about man-made tradition! The “rapture” is 100% non-biblical and was made by man in the 1800s. Sorry, but we’re all gonna suffer. Christ said so. It’s in the bible. Need the scripture to show this?

Yes, prove it. I will prove the RCC is in denial of Bible Prophecy.

The Rapture of the Church & Bema Seat Judgment

1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 teach the rapture. Both chapters also teach the resurrection and the trumpet blast. Neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation before the rapture comes. There is no debate that Rev.19 and Zechariah 14 teach on the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power after the tribulation. Neither of those chapters speak of the rapture, nor of a resurrection, nor of a trumpet blast.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming
of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

“Rapture”, when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raeptius; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; “caught up”, or “taken away”.
The Greek word a?p??? (pronounced \har-pad’-zo) means “to snatched”.

[caught up=HARPAZO=Rapture]
[/QUOTE]

 

[Seeking_God]

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the
wrath to come.
1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be
raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall
be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Seven Churches; One is promised an Escape through the "open door" from the Great Tribulation

To Thyatira:
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
To Philadelphia:
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.
To Laodiceans:
[Rev 3:16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. [out into
tribulation as in Rev. 2:22]

[Revelation 4:1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
[Rev 8:13] And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhibitors of the earth [those not raptured?] by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

[Seeking_God]

Feast of Trumpets (Open Door)

The Open Door and Last Trump are on the Feast of Trumpets, which is on the new moon. The new moon feast (holyday) is a shadow/prophesy of the Rapture. The open door is prominently seen in the rapture verses of Rev 3:10, 4:1 & Matt 25:1-13.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday [festival], or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Ezek 46:1 "Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days; but on the sabbath day it shall be opened and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Pss 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

Isa 26:2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.
Pss 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:
Pss 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.
John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many
there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to
knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

The Feast of Trumpets, on the new moon, is when the moon is turned to darkness. It is also “on a day or hour that no man knows” --which is an expression referring to this feast (and to a Jewish Wedding)-- because the new moon happens 29.5 days after the previous one, creating uncertainty of whether it will fall on the 29th or 30th day after the previous new moon,
which is the first day of the month, thus the festival is traditionally celebrated for two days just to be sure.

Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a
sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
Num 29:1 And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile
work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled all the spring feasts, and on each day of each feast, so too, will the fall feasts be fulfilled when Christ comes the second time, and in order, and on each day of each feast. The Feast of Trumpets points to the rapture, the Day of Atonement points to Satan’s defeat, Tabernacles points to establishing the 1000 year kingdom. Trumpets is on the first, and Atonement is on the tenth. Excluding the days of the Festivals themselves, there are “seven days of Awe” or tribulation between them…including

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may
be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

                               II Thess 2: The Falling Away / Departure

All of the rapture positions (whether pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib) agree that the rapture happens before the day of
the Lord. In 2 Thessalonians 2, the false report that the Day of the Lord was present meant, therefore, that the resurrection
and rapture (the departure) had come and gone and was in the past. That the resurrection was past was a common false
report, and is mentioned in 2 Timothy:
2 Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of
some. Although the day of the Lord starts with the rapture, the presence of the Day of the Lord is wrath, darkness, trouble, and the tribulation. (Zeph 1:15) The tribulations described in 2 Thess 1 were erroneously thought to be the tribulations of the day of the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[rapture]
2 Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as
that the day of Christ [day of the Lord/tribulation] is at hand [present].
2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [tribulation] shall not come [be present], except there come a falling away [departure/rapture] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits
in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thess 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?
2 Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[the Church at the rapture]
2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[Seeking_God]

In other words,

1. I beg you by our rapture hope,
2. That you don’t worry if you hear that the Day of the Lord and the tribulation is present
3. (Don’t be deceived) …unless the departure (rapture) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition
4. WHO will, (3.5 years later according to Dan 9:27) sit in the temple as God, as the abomination of desolation
5. Remember I told you this?
6. Now you know that it is your presence that withholds the man of sin, so that he will be revealed in due time.
7. For the antichrist is working now only a little, because we restrain him as we are here and pray, until the rapture, when we will be taken out of the way.
8. And then the antichrist will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy with the arrival of his presence.

2Thess 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and keep you from evil.
Jewish Wedding (a theme of the Feast of Trumpets) Bridal Chamber = Heaven

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Our “many mansions” are in heaven (Rev 21:2). Jesus went away to heaven in Acts 1. The words in Italics above are an
expression, used by the groom in a Jewish Wedding. A groom would say those words to his bride and then leave to build an addition onto his father’s house before returning for his bride. He returns for his bride in the middle of the night, as a thief, at an hour she might not think, with a loud cry, and a procession of trumpet blast and his friends saying “Behold! The
Bridegroom Comes!” Entering our “bridal chamber/heavenly mansion” will be the start of the bridal week. This is shown in
Isaiah, and indicates that the tribulation will occur while we are “hid in the bridal chambers or heaven”.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little
moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth
also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Being “hid in the Lord’s house, or heaven during tribulation” is also seen in Psalm 27, which is to be read daily in the 30 days
prior to the Feast of Trumpets.

Pss 27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the
LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set
me up upon a rock.
Pss 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle
sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

Hiding, being hid, having a place to hide away are themes of being hidden away in the bridal chamber during the wedding, as we will be hidden in heaven during the tribulation.

Zeph 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger.

 

[Seeking_God]

The Church is the Bride of Christ.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one
flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. The Rapture is likened to a wedding, and from the Bible, we know a wedding lasts a week, we know the rapture will be pre tribulation. The scriptures define a marriage as being a week long event. (Bridal week) = (Tribulation week)

Judges 14:1-18 …And Samson made a feast there, as was customary for bridegrooms. …If you can give me the answer within the seven days of the feast… She cried the whole seven days of the feast.

Genesis 29:22-28 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. … Finish this daughter’s bridal
week
The time of intimacy (the bride being with the bridegroom sealed away in the bridal chamber) begins at the start of the bridal week, and this is what we look forward to in the pre tribulation rapture.

The Parable of the 10 virgins contains many themes of the rapture, the marriage, and the feast of trumpets.
[Mat 25:1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the
bridegroom.
[Mat 25:2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[Mat 25:3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[Mat 25:4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[Mat 25:5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
[Mat 25:6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
[Mat 25:7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
[Mat 25:8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
[Mat 25:9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[Mat 25:10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[Mat 25:11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[Mat 25:12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
[Mat 25:13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

At the end of the tribulation, people are in heaven (the bride, the Church), and coming down out of heaven, because they have been there for 7 years.

[Luke 12:36] And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he
cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
[Rev 19:1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven [the raptured], saying, Alleluia; Salvation,
and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
[Rev 19:7] Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made
herself ready;
[Rev 19:8] it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure"–for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the
saints.
[Rev 19:9] And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”

[Rev 19:14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him [the raptured] upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

[Mat 24:29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[Mat 24:30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and
they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[Mat 24:31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the
four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Zech 14:5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye
shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come,
and all the saints with thee.

[Jud 1:14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten
thousands of his saints,
[Col 3:4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Interesting verse number: 12:12 12 is written all over New Jerusalem, and there are 24 elders in heaven after the rapture in
Rev. 4:1.

[Rev 12:12] Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come
down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
Yes, the Bride is in heaven, coming down out of heaven at the end of the tribulation:

[Rev 21:2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[Rev 21:9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and
talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

[Rev 21:10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy
Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

[Seeking_God]

Mt. Zion & New Jerusalem: God’s bride.

[Heb 12:22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an
innumerable company of angels,

[Isa 51:16] And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

                                               Daniel's 70th Week

The 70th week of Daniel, which becomes the 7-year Tribulation, is a judgment and curse determined upon Israel, not the Church.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an
end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and
prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that
shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war
desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the
consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Church’s sins are taken care of by Jesus’ death, and we are not under the curse of the law, nor is the 70th week “to make an end for sins” determined for the Church.

[Gal 3:13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:
[Gal 5:18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[Rom 6:14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[1Cor 6:12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

There is no need for the tribulation to purge or cleanse the Church. The blood of Christ, and the Word of God, sanctifies and cleans the Church, and makes us spotless, and ready for the rapture now.

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ
his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it
should be holy and without blemish.

 

[Seeking_God]

Who has dominion? Satan or the Lord Jesus Christ’s Church?

Satan will be given dominion for 42 months on earth, the second half of Daniel’s 70th week, and the Church will not be put under Satan’s dominion. The Church, given power by the Almighty Father in heaven, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, restrains Satan, as was shown in 2 Thess 2.

We know that Satan has not had full dominion over the Church, even though there are many Christian brothers dying still today, for if Satan did have this power, the Word of God would have been extinguished from the face of the earth by now. History alone proves that the Church is more powerful than Satan in this age, but the scriptures speak for themselves:

[Mark 3:14] And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
[Mark 3:15] And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
[Mark 6:7] And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over
unclean spirits;
[Mark 6:13.4] And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
[Luke 9:1] Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
[Luke 10:19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and
nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[Mat 10:8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Casting out Devils was not “just for the disciples only”. Anyone can do this in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Mark 9:38.11] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he follows not
us: and we forbad him, because he follows not us.
[Mark 9:39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak
evil of me.
[Mark 9:40] For he that is not against us is on our part.

Successfully casting out devils, does not make one “saved”. Hence, if “unsaved” can cast out devils, then the Church surely has the power to restrain Satan.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that said unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of
my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out
devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the
darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall be
bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But Satan will be given dominion and power to dominate the other way around!
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all
kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So the Church must be raptured, “caught up”, & Satan fights whoever is left over, the tribulation saints; those of the 7 churches who were spewed out into the time of testing, and repent and keep the commandments, and those foolish virgins in
Matthew 25 who were expecting Christ’s return, but were too busy with the world and caught unprepared.

The man child ruler Raptured in Rev 12 …is Christ and the Church (Christ is the head, the Church is the Body)

The woman giving birth is not the Bride. Jesus comes for a virgin bride. The woman is Isreal (who gave birth to Christ and Christians), who Satan turns to persecute after the rapture. But she is protected by God, so Satan turns toward new believers who are the “remnant of her seed” --tribulation saints, people repent in the tribulation, after the rapture. The man child, the woman’s first child, which is caught up [harpazo] to God, is the Church in the pretribulation rapture.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before
the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

All three characteristics of the man child (1, ruling over the nations, 2, with a rod of iron, 3 sitting on his throne), apply to both Christ AND the Church. Christ rules, and we rule as his bride:

Rev 2:26 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations,
Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

That these characteristics apply to the Church, and that the man child represents the Church does not deny that the man
child is Christ. Christ is an essential part of the Church, the HEAD!