"Sola Scriptura"

[Crucified]

R-E-A-D Y-O-U-R B-I-B-L-E

Oh so you’re pointing me to Scripture?

Well how is a guy to know what actually constitutes Scripture?

 

[po18guy]

Oh so you’re pointing me to Scripture?

Well how is a guy to know what actually constitutes Scripture?

This post presumes that you are not Catholic. Your profile claims that you are Protestant.

If you accept the Catholic Church authority which canonized the bible (and you obviously do), why then also accept the “authority” of a rebellious man who declared “by my own authority” that some of the books were not scripture? Which is better: to follow a charismatic leader of a small group of heretics, or the Church that Christ gave the authority to define scripture? Much Christian prophecy is in the seven books missing from Protestant bibles.

If you love scripture, why do you have no desire for all of it?

 

[benedictus2]

Oh so you’re pointing me to Scripture?

Well how is a guy to know what actually constitutes Scripture?

If you are asking that then there is something horribly wrong here.

I read your profile and it says you’re Protestant. So you don’t know the Bible?

You have an issue with what books constitute the Bible?

If you have an issue with what constitutes Scripture, to your mind, who do you think should decide which books should be in or out?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

This post presumes that you are not Catholic. Your profile claims that you are Protestant.

If you accept the Catholic Church authority which canonized the bible (and you obviously do), why then also accept the “authority” of a rebellious man who declared “by my own authority” that some of the books were not scripture? Which is better: to follow a charismatic leader of a small group of heretics, or the Church that Christ gave the authority to define scripture? Much Christian prophecy is in the seven books missing from Protestant bibles.

If you love scripture, why do you have no desire for all of it?

"Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions, and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain. Indeed, religion with contentment is a great gain." 1 Timothy 6; 4-6

 

[mackbrislawn]

He said “some things” not “all things” are “hard” not “impossible” to understand.

Yes, some things. But how do you know what those “some things” are? And yes, he said hard, not “impossible” to understand. Therefore you might understand them. Just might, Then, again, you might not.

This passage only establishes the need for Christ to be preached - besides, the eunuch was reading Isaiah 53 which was a prophecy that NOBODY understood until Christ was revealed, so the simple fact that Philip knew that Christ had come and fulfilled that passage does not prove the point that you are trying to make.

Interesting that you would use the word “preached,” implying word of mouth.
Again, agreed. Philip knew information that allowed the passage to be understood. But the eunuch, not having the knowledge Philip had about Christ, would be among the “untaught” that Peter speaks about. And he was humble enough to know that.

But seriously now, do you not realize that you are trying to persuade me not to interpret the Bible for myself by showing me a Bible verse that supposedly proves your point?

No, not trying to persuade you not to interpret the Bible for yourself, but to guide you in your interpretation. Remember, if you are among the “untaught,” you are taking a terrible chance. Of course, I realize that nobody likes to think of themselves as “untaught” or "unstable."

But if I cannot interpret the Bible for myself, how can I understand the meaning of the verse you quoted?

You believe you can interpret the Bible for yourself, so why should you have any problem?

Moreover you don’t even abide by your own rule. For you read the Scriptures and use your mind to understand the meaning of the text, don’t you?
**Yes, most certainly. But understood within the context of the prior understanding handed down from the apostles.
Perhaps a misunderstanding needs to be cleared up. Catholics are perfectly free to form personal opinions about scriptures, keeping within the context of apostolic tradition. Catholics in reality can have broadly different opinions about scripture, as you have noted. But it isn’t a negative thing. These are simply differences of OPINION. Catholics can have personal opinions if they are recognized to be just that, opinions. However, that doesn’t seem to be always the case in the evangelical world. According to Dr. Robert Morey, differences in interpretation of prophecy can be quite divisive among them, even to the extent of denying that the other differing group is not saved.
**

What you really want to say is this:

Read the Bible as much as you like, as long as you don’t question any doctrine taught by the Roman Catholic magisterium. And if you find any variation between the teaching of the Bible and the teaching of the Vatican, then surely you must be misunderstanding the Bible. The Roman magisterium refuses to be held accountable and to be examined in the light of God’s Word!

You’re partly right. As mentioned above, personal interpretations have to be in keeping with authoritative teaching. Because that provides the context, the background of being taught that Peter speaks of. Nevertheless, in spite of that, there remains a broad spectrum of opinions that can be had about different matters.

Again - that is not due to the lack of perspicuity of God’s word, and you must admit that having an infallible teaching magisterium does not solve this problem of “vaious interpretations.” I mentioned the Vatican II debates and the partim/partim debates that are still not resolved among your churches apologists.

As said above, there is room for debate among opinions. As an historical example, the canon of the Bible was a matter of debate for a long time, and different people could have different opinions about what that canon should be. That debate is now settled among Catholics, and pretty much settled among Protestants.
This means that it is okay to have debates, and these debates may go on for centuries, without a resolution being needed. Eventually a resolution may be needed, infallibly. Only then does an infallible decision need to be made.

At the end of the day your problem is only removed by one step, for though you have [you claim] to have access to infallible interpretations - you still must interpret those interpretations; something that not always results in doctrinal and practical harmony - as I have demonstrated. The Catholic Church needs an infallible interpreter to interpret the infallible interpretations - and so on . . .
I guess you’re right here. And that’s the advantage, there is always a means to decide, if such is needed.

Yes - and they were addressed to the common Christian - not the “teaching magisterium.”

Well… addressed to the congregation, or to a leader, such as Timothy. Of course not addressed to the “teaching magisterium” because it was the “teaching magisterium” that was writing the letter.

I partly agree - however tt is certainly not necessary for someone to be infallible in order to be authoritative. Our governments possess authority, but they are not infallible! As a father you have authority over your children to raise them up in the counsel and admonition of the Lord, yet, as you are painfully aware, you are a fallible human being. You may make mistakes, probably you have already committed quite a few, and yet you’re still the authoritative head of the family. What if your children say, “Our dad is not infallible, therefore he has no real authority, therefore we will not submit to him.”

Do you see my point?

**Yes, I do. I don’t know what you mean by this point, however, it does turn out to be germane. There certainly can be authoritative interpretations that are not infallible (in fact, the majority are), but should be carefully regarded while reading scripture. **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Another assertion?

How do you know that Christ promised that?

**HUNCH? It is written in the bible you know? **

 

[guanophore]

Another assertion?

How do you know that Christ promised that?

John 16:13-15
3 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

We believe that Jesus meant what He said, that the Spirit of Truth will guide the Church in to “all the truth”. The infallibility comes from God, not from man. All that Jesus has declared is truth. JEsus does not allow the Church, His Bride, to be led into error.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

John 16:13-15
3 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

We believe that Jesus meant what He said, that the Spirit of Truth will guide the Church in to “all the truth”. The infallibility comes from God, not from man. All that Jesus has declared is truth. JEsus does not allow the Church, His Bride, to be led into error.

Hi Guan,
**You are just too nice. I am guessing you didn’t read the previous posts? I could have told him, but we are trying to get Crucified to read the bible. Claims to be protestant but doesn’t know the bible? On thread about sola scriptura and seems confused. May have been looking for “Bible 101” Thread. Hmmmm, not an bad idea actually! Or “Bible for Dummys?” No, the MODs would complain. You know how they are! **

 

[joe370]

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Tim. 3:16

When I talk to other Christians (non-Catholics) e.g. both my father and sister, I’m often told that this passage is the basis for the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura; even as a former Lutheran, this seemed like your run of the mill non-sequitur. The inference did not seem to follow from the premise, without the inclusion of the authority of the C.C. The premise is, that ALL scripture through time and space has always been, and will always be inspired. At first blush this certainly seems plausible, after all, it is the word of God. Then it occurred to me that all scripture, not to mention the Pseudepigrapha, prior to the codification/canonization of scripture, in the 4th century, by the C.C. included:

Apocrypha and the Gnostic writings…

Apocalypse of Sedrach Apocalypse of Adam Book First Apocalypse of Jame Book Second Apocalypse of James Book Apocalypse of the Virgin Book / Notes Revelation of Moses Book Apocalypse of Moses Book Apocalypse of Peter Book Fragments-Apocalypse of Peter Book Revelation of Peter Book Fragments-Apocalypse of Paul Book of Revelation of Paul Book Revelation of Paul Apocalypse of Paul Book of Revelation of Stephen Book Apocalypse of Thomas Book Revelation of Esdras Book1st Esdras (Revelation of Esdras) Book 2nd Esdras (Revelation of Esdras).

Gospel of Bartholomew Gospel of Peter (Or Peter’s Lost Gospel) Gospel of Philip The Secret Gospel of Mark (See Gnostic Section) Gospel of Mary (same as Pseudo-Matthew) Gospel of the Nativity of Mary Gospel of Mary of Bethany Gospel of James-Protoevangelium Gospel of the Lord-by Marcion Gospel of Truth Gospel of Nicodemus (Or Acts Of Pilate) /Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew Gospel of Thomas Infancy Gospel of Thomas Infancy Compilation of all Infancy Gospel of Thomas-A Text Infancy Gospel of Thomas-B Text Infancy Gospel of Thomas-Latin Text Arabic Infancy Gospel Infancy Gospel Gospel of the Egyptians Hymnal prayer from the Gospel of the Egyptians.

Book Acts of Andrew Book Acts of Peter Book Acts of Philip Book Martyrdom of Matthew Book Book Martyrdom of Bartholomew Book Acts of Barnabas Book Acts of Thaddeaus Book Acts of Thomas Book The Book of Thomas the Contender Not online Acts of Paul Book Acts of Paul (Paul and Thecla) Book Acts of John Book Acts of John (Mystery of the Cross) Book Acts of John the Theologian Book Death of Mary-By John Book Passing of Mary Book Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew Book Death of Pilate.

Acts of Peter and the 12 Apostles Gospel of the Egyptians Paraphrase of Shem Allogenes Gospel of Philip Plato, Republic 588A-589B Apocalypse of Adam Gospel of Thomas Prayer of the Apostle Paul Apocalypse of James (1st) Apocalypse of James (2cnd) Gospel of Truth Prayer of Thanksgiving Hymn of Jesus Treatise of the Great Seth (2cnd) Apocalypse of Paul Hypostasis of the Archons Sentences of Sextus Apocalypse of Peter Hypsiphrone Sophia of Jesus Christ The Apocryphon of James Interpretation of Knowledge Teachings of Silvanus ocryphon of John Letter of Peter to Philip Testimony of Truth Asclepius 21-29 arsanes Thought of Norea Authoritative Teaching Melchizedek Three Steles of Seth Book of Thomas the Contender Odes of Solomon Thunder, Perfect Mind Concept of Our Great Power On the Anointing Treatise on the Resurrection The Dialogue of the Savior the Baptism A Trimorphic Protennoia Tripartite Tractate On the Eucharist A On the Eucharist B Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth Eugnostos the Blessed A Valentinian Exposition Exegesis on the Soul Zostrianos First book of Pistis Sophia Second Book of Pistis Sophia On the Origin of the World.

So, either the Church built by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD was granted full authority, with the guidance of His Holy Spirit – “forever” --as per scripture–and ALL scripture --that is inspired, consist of what was selected, collected, collated, and finally codified and canonized by the Catholic Church –OR…

…the Bible possesses all of the Divine authority necessary for our Salvation and ALL scripture that is inspired, consist of what is in the Bible and all of the preceding writings that didn’t make it into the Canon.

If complete authority (not selective authority, until the bible was written, as some non-Catholics bandy about, and then that authority was transferred to the bible, which completely undermines Jesus’ promise of perpetuity to His One Church) – wasn’t granted to the Catholic Church, then why should I trust the notion that what I read in my bible is in fact the word of god??? if complete authority lies within the pages of holy scripture; how can I be sure that the preceding books are not inspired, after all the bible doesn’t come with a table of contents; that was put there by the Catholic Church?..

 

[joe370]

…Jesus’ Church established circa 33 AD is guided by the Holy Spirit, until Jesus’ return, according to the Bible. Matthew 16:18 (even if you believe His Church is built on Jesus instead of Peter and the Apostles) – tells us that nothing will ever vanquish His Church; many have tried in the past and many individual apostasies will plague His Church in the future; that is the very nature of the anti-Christ, *“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” *Rev. 12:17 –So, if God can’t fail, then surely His Church built on Peter and the Apostles with Jesus as the Divine Cornerstone, keeping the whole thing together --or as some like to think, built on God Himself, which just gives my point even more credibility –can’t fail either!

If the Church Jesus built circa 33 AD failed at some undisclosed period, and required a mere man to fix what God apparently could not, then God failed as well. For those who say God did not fail, He just transferred His authority to someone else, or to the Bible, due to the failure of mere errant humans, then that makes God a liar, after all Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to His created Church to protect and guide His church forever:

“…But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” --This promise was made to His Apostolic Church on Pentecost; It was a promise made in perpetuity –not just to His Apostles, but to all those who would follow in their footsteps. To deny this fact is to call Jesus a liar: *“Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and **teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” **
*
If this were a reference to the Apostles exclusively, then The H.S. Left Jesus’ Church around the end of the 1st century, when Saint John passed away. Of course no true Christian would ever proffer that notion.

*“…and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” *…

 

[joe370]

Jesus’ Church, once endowed with Divine GUIDANCE, via the Holy Spirit, went out into the whole world, THROUGH EVERY CENTURY, until JESUS’ RETURN. The Holy Spirit is where Jesus’ One Church derives her authority --not from the Pope, bishops, priests or deacons!! . Which ever church in the world today is the same church Jesus endowed with the Holy Spirit, (circa 33 AD) which, according to scripture, would be with that One church in perpetuity, ---- is the church everyone should belong to.

Jesus will be with His established church (created in the 1st century) forever, through every century, until the end of time: GOD has said He will be with His Church (Ecclesia, “assembly, congregation, council”) forever! “I will never leave you, neither will I forsake you.” Heb13:5; John 14:16 “…And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.” --In Mt 28:20, Jesus said, “and I am with you all days, even until the end of the world.” Jesus also said --“to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.” Ephesians 3:21 That means Jesus will be with His Church every day in every century until the end of time. If any non-Catholic can debunk this simple logic, I will convert to their denomination, no sarcasm intended…

Psalm 22:27-28 says,* “All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. For dominion belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.”* In other words, God is infinitely great, and His greatness is so great that he cannot fail. He cannot be denied his inheritance (Ps. 2:8). “I will build my church,” Jesus said, *“and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” *

If the Church Jesus built circa 33 AD failed at any particular time in history, then Jesus failed, the very moment His Church “completely apostatized.

If the Church Jesus built circa 33 AD failed at some undisclosed period, and required a mere man to fix what God apparently could not, then God failed as well. For those who say God did not fail, He just transferred His authority to someone else, or to the Bible, due to the failure of mere errant humans, then that makes God a liar, after all Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to His created Church to protect and guide His church forever:

“…But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” --This promise was made to His Apostolic Church on Pentecost; It was a promise made in perpetuity –not just to His Apostles, but to all those who would follow in their footsteps. To deny this fact is to call Jesus a liar: *“Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and **teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” **
*
If this were a reference to the Apostles exclusively, then The H.S. Left Jesus’ Church around the end of the 1st century, when Saint John passed away. Of course no true Christian would ever proffer that notion.

*“…and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” *

Jesus’ Church, once endowed with Divine GUIDANCE, via the Holy Spirit, went out into the whole world, THROUGH EVERY CENTURY, until JESUS’ RETURN. The Holy Spirit is where Jesus’ One Church derives her authority --not from the Pope, bishops, priests or deacons!! . Which ever church in the world today is the same church Jesus endowed with the Holy Spirit, (circa 33 AD) which, according to scripture, would be with that One church in perpetuity, ---- is the church everyone should belong to.

Jesus will be with His established church (created in the 1st century) forever, through every century, until the end of time: GOD has said He will be with His Church (Ecclesia, “assembly, congregation, council”) forever! “I will never leave you, neither will I forsake you.” Heb13:5; John 14:16 “…And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.” --In Mt 28:20, Jesus said, “and I am with you all days, even until the end of the world.” Jesus also said --“to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.” Ephesians 3:21 That means Jesus will be with His Church every day in every century until the end of time. If any non-Catholic can debunk this simple logic, I will convert to their denomination, no sarcasm intended.

 

[joe370]

The Bible talks about Jesus’ established Church; His kingdom here on earth; He never mentions the Bible as the “pillar and foundation of truth:”

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in **the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. **There can be only one truth (truth is not relative) ergo there can be only one House of the Living God and one pillar and ground of the truth. It is true that Jesus is truth, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me, but is also true that His Church is His Body, with Him as the Head of the Church, the house of the living God, The pillar and foundation of truth. If Jesus is truth and His Church is His Body, which also is called truth, then His established Church, circa 33 AD not the bible, is where one can find the only truth that really matters in the grand scheme of things.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, (kepha) and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God.

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Clearly Jesus died for His established Church and anyone who belongs to it.

For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him (Jesus) as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. If the Church is Jesus’ Mystical Body, then there can be only one church, for there is only one Christ and one truth –the “spirit of truth.”

Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body… Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it…That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish…For no man ever yet hated his own body; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church… This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Jesus and His Church are synonymous.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Substitute the word bible with the word church, and I would embrace sola scriptura…

 

[joe370]

Sorry about the redundancy vis-a-vis 2 paragraphs; I copied and pasted it from another post I am currently engaged…