Sola Scriptura

[Prodigal_Son1]

PS, When you have two people claiming Holy Spirit guidance on scripture with different interpretations, first we always go to the Word of God to see who is correct. You see, there can different opinions, but we are not entitled to our own set of facts. Sometimes we as humans just miss the voice of the Holy Spirit. There is a big problem with Christians that are mind led. The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirits and not to our minds. The devil has access to our minds and not to our recreated spirits.

The problem is, you say we have to go to scriptures to see who is correct, when interpretations of those scriptures are the source of division. I used the example of “two”, but there are far more than two denominations claiming Holy Spirit guidance.

My decision to become Catholic is right in my heart of hearts, and in my mind, both spiritually and logically. I’ve had prayers answered amazingly quick. Prayers with questions on Church teachings. How can someone say that is not the work of the Holy Spirit? Because the Holy Spirit told them so, yet another denomination says the same?

As far as denominations go, I don’t believe God is pleased with that and was never met to be. I believe God wants a Word and Holy Ghost Church just like the church in the Book of Acts.

Many of the letters, books, of the Bible are corrections to errs in Churches. Corrections articulated by the Apostles, who received their teachings and the Holy Spirit from Christ and His promises.

Just like the word Trinity, Sola-Scripture is not in the Bible. I think you Catholic’s have made that word to confuse people.

As someone has already pointed out, the example of Trinity is in the Bible. Where is the example of sola scriptura?

The Church is a pillar of truth if it’s based on God’s Word. ( Bible based church). Of course, sometimes we need correction in a church. The Bible says study and show thyself approved.

    Peace,   Golfjack

The Catholic Church is based on God’s Word.

When Christ’s Church needs correction, do we correct it or disregard it and start another? St. Paul wrote many letters of corrections to Churches, he did not cast them aside and create a new Church. You do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Man cannot improve what Christ built.

Now if the Bible is the sole authority, where is the list of books that belong in the Bible? They’re not, we had to depend on an authority outside of the Bible to decide which books would be included and excluded. That alone defeats the argument of “sola scriptura”, in my opinion.

 

[CWBetts]

PS, When you have two people claiming Holy Spirit guidance on scripture with different interpretations, first we always go to the Word of God to see who is correct. You see, there can different opinions, but we are not entitled to our own set of facts. Sometimes we as humans just miss the voice of the Holy Spirit. There is a big problem with Christians that are mind led. The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirits and not to our minds. The devil has access to our minds and not to our recreated spirits.

As far as denominations go, I don’t believe God is pleased with that and was never met to be. I believe God wants a Word and Holy Ghost Church just like the church in the Book of Acts.

Just like the word Trinity, Sola-Scripture is not in the Bible. I think you Catholic’s have made that word to confuse people.

The Church is a pillar of truth if it’s based on God’s Word. ( Bible based church). Of course, sometimes we need correction in a church. The Bible says study and show thyself approved.

    Peace,   Golfjack

The Catholic CHurch is the Bible based church! Do you have any idea how much of the Sacred Liturgy comes directly from the Scriptures? Virtually every line! All seven of the Sacraments are in the Scriptures. The Catholic Church is based on taking the Scriptures as a whole, and not “proof-texting” by pu;;ing passages out of context to try to make the Bible fit our theology, rather we make the theology fit the Scriptures! To say that the Catholic Church is not supported by the Scriptures is a lie that continues to be promulgated by those who have no desire for unity in the Body of Christ.

 

[AwGusTeen]

snip…
If it’s the Catholic church’s job to follow these rules and interpret scripture, then it has been remiss in its duties, as the vast majority of scripture remains uninterpreted “officially.” Interestingly, Catholic interpretive methods have changed as the sciences have made advances in textual and historical criticism. This type of change would not seem necessary for, or consistent with, a divinely guided Magesterium.

Hang on a minute. As you well know, there is an enormous difference between Catholic custom and dogma. Catholic interpretive methods are not dogma. For decades, the Catholic Church may have had a custom of wearing green vestments during certain times of the year, but may decide to change the color to red at some point in the future. However, dogma does not change. I suppose that you came into this world with a fully developed and immalleable set of exegetical interpretive methods. Come on!

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

everything you will need to know about SS:

geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have a question pertaining to this discussion. I think that the Catholic Church doesn’t allow any private interpretation of scripture. If this is so, how do I know that Catholic interpretation is correct? Why not depend on the Holy Spirit, who is our guide?

Peace, Golfjack

God promised to lead the Church into all truth, etc. This promise was not made to individual believers, and the proof of this should be obvious enough:

One Protestant believes that infant baptism regenerates the soul.
Another believes that infants should be baptized but not that it regenerates.
A third believes that only adults should be baptized for regeneration.
A fourth believes that adults should be baptized but that it is symbolic of the inner transformation and not regenerative.
A fifth does not believe in baptism at all.

These are the beliefs of MAJOR denominations.

Is the Holy Spirit such a poor guide that millions arrive at different conclusions about this one doctrine?

THIS is the fruit of sola scriptura.

 

[po18guy]

To SS adherents: Where did our Lord promise the Holy Spirit to lead individual believers into all truth? Christ did not establish individual believers. He established a Church. Sacred Scripture states in numerous places that many spirits, antichrists, and false prophets have gone out into the world - the princedom of the evil one. So, knowing that the evil spirits and antichrists are not affected by the downturn in the economy, and are always fully employed, how can you be sure that one is not leading you?

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

 

[golfjack]

My friend, what in the world do you think who are members of the church? I will give you a hint: BELIEVERS.
Peace, Golfjack:thumbsup:

 

[po18guy]

My friend, what in the world do you think who are members of the church? I will give you a hint: BELIEVERS.

   Peace,   Golfjack:thumbsup:

In a broad, nebulous sense, yes. However, Jesus wanted us to be one, and Paul heavily criticized “factions”. We are not one and we have factions. And we think we are suitable for the Kingdom?

 

[golfjack]

:bowdown:Why is it every time a Catholic sees the word church, they think it means Catholic Church? It’s beyond me.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Randy_Carson]

:bowdown:Why is it every time a Catholic sees the word church, they think it means Catholic Church? It’s beyond me.

Peace, Golfjack

Because there is only one Church and it is the Catholic Church.

All the rest are “ecclesial communities”.

From Dominus Iesus:

1. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59

Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

:bowdown:Why is it every time a Catholic sees the word church, they think it means Catholic Church? It’s beyond me.

   Peace,   Golfjack

Your failure to address the questions and points raised, seems to indicate a lack of an answer to those questions and points. Since you only reply with “one shot” answers, or your own questions with no answers, I will limit this post to one simple question.

Since all “believers” are scattered out among thousands of denominations, please answer one question for me. Are they all of the same mind and judgement, as scriptures tell us to be?

**Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.**

 

[golfjack]

If by believers you mean that they are saved, then of course they are of the same mind. I sincerely hope all people who say they are saved are born again saints, spirit-filled,. tongue talking, and miracle believing Christians. Did you know all the believers in all the churches that Paul established were all in one accord? By the way, I am not saying that one must be spirit-filled to be saved, but it sure helps to have some of the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. 14.
Have a good night, Peace, Golfjack

 

[denwiles]

When you have two different people, with two different interpretations, both claiming guidance by the Holy Spirit, who is correct?

There are many denominations, all with slight to great differences in doctrines, based on someone’s private interpretation. Which one is correct? Who has the authority to say they are correct?

Where is sola scriptura taught in scriptures?

Why did God inspire it be written that the Church was the pillar and ground of truth instead of scriptures?

When offenses occur, why did Jesus teach to take disputes to the Church, instead of scriptures?

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction./QUOT

Ok so there may be alot of Denominations, but all Protestant denominations have one vital thing in commom. They believe that Salvation is a gift from God, that cannot be earned. Its a gift!!! Very Important that you get this one thing strait, 2 Corithians 5:17 says, when we are saved we become a new creation in Christ. Adopted sons of God whereby we cry abba Father. Many work to try to become a Christian. You can’t swim to become a fish, but if your changed into a fish you swim because that is who you are. When your changed into a child of God you do works not to become a Christian, but that is who you are. So solo scripture or not, the Bible is the main authority and no person or group can change that. Baptism, Sacrements, Priest, good works can not save you; only your repetance and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior can save you. Then you will do works not be saved, but because that is the New saved you. We were all in a spiritual prision of death as humans, the wages of sin is death, so Jesus being the perfect sacrifice paid the debt in full on the Cross. Recieve the Pardon and your free as long as you keep your eyes on Jesus the Author and finisher of your faith. NOW THAT YOUR FREE ARE YOU GOING BACK INTO PRISION TO PAY THE REST OF YOUR DEBT? NO. The debt is paid. Don’t serve a Jesus who was not quite sufficent. Jesus the real Jesus, the Son of the Living God, The Messiah, God himself is most sufficent to pay all your debt and fully save you. Study Study Study The new Testament. God Bless

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If by believers you mean that they are saved, then of course they are of the same mind. I sincerely hope all people who say they are saved are born again saints, spirit-filled,. tongue talking, and miracle believing Christians. Did you know all the believers in all the churches that Paul established were all in one accord? By the way, I am not saying that one must be spirit-filled to be saved, but it sure helps to have some of the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. 14.

  Have a good night,   Peace,   Golfjack

The problem is, as I see it, is scriptures state, “…and that there be no dissensions…” Please note dissensions is plural.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

St. Paul, who wrote the above, also wrote the verse below.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Now, in light of what St. Paul wrote above, it appears we are to be in full accord and of one mind. If as you say, Protestants agree on one essential, it’s a far cry from a full accord, wouldn’t you agree?

Randy Carson provided an excellent example of the problems of private interpretations by using the subject of baptism. Not only did you fail to address valid points being raised, you provide your interpretation of salvation?

To be perfectly honest, it’s starting to appear you have an agenda, as opposed to discussing theology from a Catholic vs. Protestant perspective.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ok so there may be alot of Denominations, but all Protestant denominations have one vital thing in commom. They believe that Salvation is a gift from God, that cannot be earned. Its a gift!!! Very Important that you get this one thing strait, 2 Corithians 5:17 says, when we are saved we become a new creation in Christ. Adopted sons of God whereby we cry abba Father. Many work to try to become a Christian. You can’t swim to become a fish, but if your changed into a fish you swim because that is who you are. When your changed into a child of God you do works not to become a Christian, but that is who you are. So solo scripture or not, the Bible is the main authority and no person or group can change that. Baptism, Sacrements, Priest, good works can not save you; only your repetance and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior can save you. Then you will do works not be saved, but because that is the New saved you. We were all in a spiritual prision of death as humans, the wages of sin is death, so Jesus being the perfect sacrifice paid the debt in full on the Cross. Recieve the Pardon and your free as long as you keep your eyes on Jesus the Author and finisher of your faith. NOW THAT YOUR FREE ARE YOU GOING BACK INTO PRISION TO PAY THE REST OF YOUR DEBT? NO. The debt is paid. Don’t serve a Jesus who was not quite sufficent. Jesus the real Jesus, the Son of the Living God, The Messiah, God himself is most sufficent to pay all your debt and fully save you. Study Study Study The new Testament. God Bless

We are in a discussion about “sola scriptura”.

I have addressed the Protestants agreeing on one subject is not being in FULL accord and ONE mind, in my opinion.

It seems in your “rant”, I noticed that you have some misconceptions about what Catholics believe. Catholics believe faith and grace are gifts from God. Catholics also believe one cannot work their way into heaven.

Also, please let me make a suggestion to you. When you respond by throwing up “lists” of objections, it appears you cannot produce an answer and simply throw back a list to cloud the topic of discussion. These forums offer many avenues to discuss the misconceptions you have about Catholicism. You can rationally discuss any one subject at a time and gain a full understanding.

You might also want to try and take on a different tone, with more charitability, that is required of all Christians.

Edited to add: I also wanted to add one more important thing. You do realize it’s against the rules to try and proseltyze Catholics away from the Church, don’t you? It’s also against the rules to be disrespectful to the Catholic faith.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

To me, it’s ironic to discuss a doctrine of sola scriptura, Bible alone or the Bible is the sole authority, when that doctrine is not found or supported in scriptures.

If the teaching is not found in scriptures, it comes from an “authority” outside of the Bible and is man-made in itself.

To believe in sola scriptura, is to invite each and every individual to read for themselves and weigh everything against what the Bible says, according to their own personal interpretation. In doing so it’s evident, by the many different denominations with different doctrines, that we have many individual interpretations of scriptures.

Jesus and the Apostles taught through an “oral tradition”. When they referred to scriptures, they referred to the Old Testament.

Christ gave authority to men, He did not give authority to scriptures.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

When Christ sent them out to teach all nations, the Bible had not yet been written, but they knew what He was telling them to do because they had been sent out before.

**Mat 10:7 And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. **

Mat 10:27 That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops.

What did Christ Himself do, once He had sent them out?

Mat 11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he passed from thence, to teach and to preach in their cities.

Why do scriptures tell us to hold to the traditions that had been taught, without going into detail as to what those traditions were? I believe it was because of oral tradition.

Scriptures provide numerous examples of oral tradition.

Christ told the people to observe and do whatever those who sit upon Moses’ seat said, yet He didn’t explain what the chair of Moses was and the it’s not written about anywhere in scriptures. They knew because of oral tradition.

The author of Acts wrote the words of Christ, “I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring you ought to support the weak and to remember the word of the Lord Jesus, how he said: It is a more blessed thing to give, rather than to receive.” Yet the author was not an eyewitness to Christ. He learned of those words through oral tradition. Acts 20:35

Paul told us the names of the two magicians that worked for Pharoah, yet they are not named anywhere else in scriptures. He learned those names through oral tradition. 2 Timothy 3:8

Paul also told us about the rock that followed the Israelites through the desert, yet that rock is not written about anywhere else in scriptures. He could have only known this through oral tradition. 1 Corinthians 10:4

Only two of the Gospel authors were eyewitnesses to Christ, Matthew and John. How did Luke and Mark know what to write? They heard it preached or spoken to them. Only five of the Apostles actually wrote any scriptures. The majority of the New Testament was written by what had been told to the authors.

If one sat down and started to read everything written, that Christ had said, how long would it take? Five hours? Yet Christ preached and spoke for 3 years. Are we to believe He only taught a few hours worth hearing?

Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Let’s look at the example of the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip, in Acts 8.

**Act 8:30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?
Act 8:31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Act 8:35 Then Philip, opening his mouth and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.**

The eunuch did not understand what he read. It was only after Philip preached Jesus to him that he understood, believed and was baptized.

Had Christ saw such an importance in the authority of scriptures alone, why didn’t He sit down and write, or order scribed, scriptures? Why is it the Holy Spirit did not inspire those men to write the scriptures until 30 and more years later?

Where does the sole authority tell us a list of the books that are to be included in the Bible? If it does not, it means we had to depend on an authority outside of the Bible. That in itself, defeats the meaning of sola scriptura, in my opinion.

Once those letters and epistles, that make up the New Testament, had been written, how long was it before they were brought together to make up the New Testament, as we know it today? History tells us, the first attempt to define the canon of the New Testament, which produced a list similar to today’s, was the Council of Laodicea, in 360AD.

The sole authority, as some see it, did not provide us with the Church, the Church defined the canon of those books and epistles to be included in the Bible. Christ gave authority to men of the Church and they, through God’s inspiration, gave us scriptures. There is more than a single, or sole, authority.

 

[po18guy]

:bowdown:Why is it every time a Catholic sees the word church, they think it means Catholic Church? It’s beyond me. Peace, Golfjack

You think that your Church is the original, so you joined. But, you will not allow Catholics the same privilege?

 

[twb1621]

If by believers you mean that they are saved, then of course they are of the same mind. I sincerely hope all people who say they are saved are born again saints, spirit-filled,. tongue talking, and miracle believing Christians. Did you know all the believers in all the churches that Paul established were all in one accord? By the way, I am not saying that one must be spirit-filled to be saved, but it sure helps to have some of the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. 14.

Have a good night, Peace, Golfjack

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given according to His determination and not all gifts are offered to one but distributed among many for all in the Holy Spirit to serve God as His body.

 

[twb1621]

:bowdown:Why is it every time a Catholic sees the word church, they think it means Catholic Church? It’s beyond me.

Peace, Golfjack

If you believe in sola Scriptura and your Church is the Church Jesus Founded and your referencing the Scriptural content as it was intended, answer these questions;

the only teachings of Jesus are those in the written Bible so answer these questions solely from Scriptural quotes as you claim all is needed.

Who saw to it that Paul was accepted by the others as one of them? How do you know? I’ll help you with this one; Peter did, the Bible says it.

What is the original contents supposed to be in the Bible and where is that information presented in Scripture?

Where is it in Scripture that other prophets would come to alter the contents of the Bible and that would be acceptable?

Where does Scripture provide the index or contents of the Bible?

Which Apostle provided the list for an index?

Have you compared your bible to the Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate to be sure it has not been edited or censored and were the contents the same?

Where did the Bible you refer to originate from?

Where is it recorded that the Apostles or any of their faithful contemporaries gathered all the inspired Gospels and epistles and declared to the Christian world, “this will be the sole rule of faith after we have gone to the Lord.” ?

Where does it say, the written New Testament would supplant Church Teachings?

Where does it say that Christ intended to leave all His teachings in a single book, not in the Church, whether written, oral or otherwise?

Did Christ promise to give us an authoritative book, or did He promise us an authoritative Church?: “on this rock I will build my Church” (St. Matt. 16:18). St. Paul attests that “the Church of the living God … is the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).

When Christ ascended into heaven He left behind a hierarchical authority to continue His mission in the world. This hierarchy was invested with divine authority to govern in His name (St. Matt. 16:13; 18:18); is to be obeyed by all the faithful (St. Luke 10:16); and will last until the end of the world (St. Matt. 16:18; 28:20).

Sola Scriptura, by implication, rejects the need for an authoritative body outside of the Bible to determine vital questions of faith and morals. It must be also remembered that it was the Catholic Church who assembled and canonized the books of the Old and New Testaments, translated them faithfully, safeguarded them in times of persecution and interpreted them free from error throughout the rise and fall of every heresy under the sun. Without the Church and Tradition, there would have been no Bible to base Sola Scriptura on in the first place. As another convert from Protestantism, James Akin, states: “The Protestant apologist is in a fix. In order to use Sola Scriptura he is going to have to identify what the scriptures are, and since he is unable to do this from scripture alone, he is going to have to appeal to things outside of scripture to make his case, meaning that in every act of doing this he undermines this case. There is no way to escape the canon of tradition.”

 

[twb1621]

Who saw to it that Paul was accepted by the others as one of them? How do you know? I’ll help you with this one; Peter did, the Bible says it.

Notice also Peter “ordered” as in the authority.
ACTS CH10; 44 While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. 19 45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, 46 for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, 47 “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” 48 He (Peter) ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. 49 Then they invited him to stay for a few days.

Notice Peter received the vision from God and Peter was the one summoned and Peter attested to it and to not possessing authority over God’s will, as no one could.
ACTS CH 11 15 As **I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them as it had upon us at the beginning, 16 and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, ‘John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave them the same gift he gave to us when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?" **18 When they heard this, they stopped objecting and glorified God, saying, “God has then granted life-giving repentance to the Gentiles too.”