Sola Scriptura

[Tom]

bjcros:

Please, disregard my last post. I typed it in response and I was very angry. So I apologize to all of you. I should have used a lighter tone.

BJ, may the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you. The only people I’ve run into who insist that the deutercononical books are not Scripture are those who have never read them with an open heart. I implore you to read them with an open heart. They are the Word of God, you will see that. Then the necessary question will arise, why have the protestors removed these books? The answer is they didn’t follow mans (protestants) ideas about God. It isn’t you reading Scripture and deciding your relationship with Him, it’s you deciding your relationship and rejecting His Word that doesn’t fit your reasoning. PLEASE, read them, start with Sirach or Wisdom (some of my favorites), sit and jot down the teachings of Jesus you find, take your time, you’ll probably get writers cramp. When you’ve finished you’ll wonder if He used any other books than these. Just read Tobit about marriage.

 

[Ignatius]

Quote:

Quote:

That Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, declared infallibly which books are the inerrant word of God and delivered the Holy Scripture undefiled down through the millennia. It is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic******Church. **

Says the RCC. Christians don’t believe that.

So, are you saying that Catholics aren’t Christians?

Quote:

**The Protestants did not even exist until the 16th century. **

Well, again I am not a Protestant.

Saying that over and over again will not make it true. You espouse protestant doctrines. There are (sadly) three major divisions in christianity. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant. You, my misguided friend, are protestant.

Quote:

**They got the New Testament from the Catholic Church and have been misinterpreting it ever since. **

I believe the RCC has misinterpreted Scripture.

What we personally believe may or may not coincide with reality. To avoid error in these matters pertaining to the salvation of our immortal soul, we need to have a source which will not misinterpret scripture. Realizing the love Jesus displayed for us by His passion and Crusifixion I cannot imagine that He would leave us without such a means. It is not your personal interpretation nor mine. What could it be?

Now, you have not addressed my original query, here it is.

Insofar as what books to include in the New Testament, who declared which books to include?

Where (geographic location) was this done?

When (approximate dates) was this done? (Hint: look for New Testament Cannon).

Please reply to this post and let me know what you find so that we can further discuss it.

May the Holy Spirit grant you the wisdom and vision in this research and guide you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

May the love of God the Father, the love of His Son Our Lord Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Ignatius]

bjcros:

You follow a man. I follow God.

bjcross,

In all charity, It is not us but you who follow men. These men and their false doctrines didn’t even exist until the 16th century.

Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:

If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by about 4,000 years ago.

If you are Latin or Eastern rite Catholic, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Roman Catholicism around the year 1054.

If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.

If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.

If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.

If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.

 

[Milliardo]

I got confused–is WILKM Catholic or Protestant? He said he’s Catholic but his last posts defend Protestantism, or maybe he got messed up with his post…

 

[Ignatius]

Milliardo:

I got confused–is WILKM Catholic or Protestant? He said he’s Catholic but his last posts defend Protestantism, or maybe he got messed up with his post…

He’s one of those guys who come on here, advertise themselves as Catholic, then espouse all kinds of false beliefs that they erroneously think the Church teaches. Either that, or he is an Anglican. They like to call themselves catholic.

 

[WILKM]

Sorry all - I know this is confusing. I am a Catholic (WILKM). I was quoting above (the numerous posts last night) an exchange between myself and a sola scriptura believer. Mine was the quotes and underneath that was the sola scriptura’s response and I was asking for your comments. The sola scriptura believer is, I think, a born again Christian.

Sorry for the confusion!

Kathy

 

[Milliardo]

Thanks for clearing that up, Kathy. I was also confused since you said you’re Catholic, but then your last posts seem to indicate otherwise, but I also thought you messed up with those posts somehow. Glad to see it’s cleared up.

 

[TESSfromCALVARY]

snowman10:

Ask the question "where within the Scriptures are a list of books that are inspired and belong in the Bible?" They can't find one (table of contents do not count..haha). Coming from a Protestant background, that answer was enough to stop me dead in my tracks. The answer to it is, the Bible itself is a tradition.

Challenge: Match RCC-specific teaching to anything from which Jesus quoted.

 

[TESSfromCALVARY]

Ignatius:

…To avoid error in these matters pertaining to the salvation of our immortal soul, we need to have a source which will not misinterpret scripture. Realizing the love Jesus displayed for us by His passion and Crusifixion I cannot imagine that He would leave us without such a means. It is not your personal interpretation nor mine. What could it be?

He left us His Spirit! Jhn 14:26 “But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” 1Jo 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him”

It is better to trust in God than to put confidence in man (Ps 118:8).

 

[TESSfromCALVARY]

Milliardo:

-------------If a person truly wants to live, he can make any place he wants a heaven.–Yui Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion

Until he dies.

 

[st_felicity]

TESSfromCALVARY:

Challenge: Match RCC-specific teaching to anything from which Jesus quoted.

You mean like the Eucharist and John 6? “You must eat my flesh and drink my blood or you have no life in you…My flesh is true food, my blood is true drink…”?

 

[st_felicity]

TESSfromCALVARY:

He left us His Spirit! Jhn 14:26 “But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” 1Jo 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him”

It is better to trust in God than to put confidence in man (Ps 118:8).

2Peter 3:

16 speaking of these things 12 as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. 17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

2Thess.:2

11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, 12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned. 13 But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits 7 for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. 14 To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. 8

 

[sonseeker]

snowman10:

Ask the question “where within the Scriptures are a list of books that are inspired and belong in the Bible?” They can’t find one (table of contents do not count…haha). Coming from a Protestant background, that answer was enough to stop me dead in my tracks. The answer to it is, the Bible itself is a tradition.

DU

Where are there a list of traditions?

 

[Scott_Waddell]

2Peter 3:

16 speaking of these things 12 as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. 17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

2Thess.:2

11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, 12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned. 13 But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits 7 for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. 14 To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. 8

Good point. Also note that John 14 is addressed to the apostles, not a general instruction to everyone. Even if it was, just because the Holy Spirit teaches us, it does not mean everyone is his own authority. Much like we may all be U.S. Citizens, but that doesn’t mean we can personally negotiate a treaty with other countries. If everyone was legitimately his own authority, why are there six different ideas about what baptism is?

Scott

 

[Tom]

TESSfromCALVARY:

font=Palatino Linotype]Challenge: Match RCC-specific teaching to anything from which Jesus quoted.

Baptism
Confession
Eucharist
Confirmation
Marriage
Holy orders
Anointing of the sick

 

[Tom]

Tom:

My question, since we know the Holy Spirit would not use deception and we know that Satan is the father of all deception, which spirit would lead people into using a deception, like calling the deuterocanon the apocrypha in order to confuse people? Which Spirit do you follow?

BJ, my point was the people who instigated this deception were led by an evil spirit, you and the majority of protestants are simply restating what you’ve been taught, but, if anyone refuses to learn the truth even when he sees it, all I can do is pray for them and attempt to show them the truth.

 

[bjcros]

Tom:

I question which Spirit everyone follows, you’re no exception. When you reject Scripture because it doesn’t fit your theology, I seriously question.
I am sorry, you don’t follow the Holy Spirit if you refuse to follow the Catholic Church that He established.
Mt 18: 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Yes I do follow a man, that man is Jesus the Christ, but by following I do as He instructs, I do not give lip service to His Words, I follow them.
Not if you refuse to follow His Church you don’t. You follow your own distorted version of His message.

Jn 20: 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Jesus established oral confession, I understand you don’t like that but, it’s a fact. Rejecting His teachings is rejecting Him.
Lk 10: 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Excuse me but your reasoning is a little strange. The Jews also reject ALL of the new Testament, so by your reasoning, so should we? Why on earth would the Jews accept as Scripture the books Jesus used extensively, and point to Him as the Christ? Od course the Jews reject them, the question is why do you?

I reject non-Scripture because it doesn’t fit my theology, and because it is isn’t Scripture. In case you don’t already know this Jesus was a Jew. Because Jesus was a Jew, I accept the books of the Old Testament that Jesus would have used as a Palestinian Jew. Jesus never established an organization. The Church is the body of Christ and is made up of all believers. We are the church it isn’t a building or an organization. The Catholic Church isn’t the only place of believers, therefore it isn’t the one church. I was referring to your following of the Pope. Alright there maybe a little bit of evidence for confession to a priest(I’m not going to get into the issues I have with it). If priest can forgive my sin, then would it not be better to go to the source of the power(God) rather then going through a man. Don’t you dare claim to know me. You don’t know how I live my life. I will get in trouble if I respond to the “distorted views” statement. Yes, faith without works is dead. However, it isn’t by the works that I am justified. I still have works. I know they aren’t what justify me. I wasn’t talking about the Jews today, but let me say this I know many Jewish Christians and they are my friends. I was reffering to Jews at Jesus’ time. The Jews rejected the books not because they pointed to Jesus but because they didn’t see them as Scripture. Jesus wasn’t born as a man for a while after the books were writen so the Palestinian Jews had already rejected it. The Jews of today wouldn’t reject them just because they point to Jesus. They don’t think that Jersus was the Messiah so it wouldn’t matter if there were any Messianic prophecies. There were a group of Jews that did accept this, but the Palestinian Jews rejected. Jesus was a Palestinian Jew. So it is “your reasoning [that] is a little strange.” You accept something as Scripture that isn’t and wouldn’t have been viewed as such by the Jews at the time of Jesus. I will say this that those may be good writings, but they are not on the same level as Scripture, just as the church teachings aren’t.

 

[bjcros]

Ignatius:

bjcross,

In all charity, It is not us but you who follow men. These men and their false doctrines didn’t even exist until the 16th century.

Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:

If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by about 4,000 years ago.

If you are Latin or Eastern rite Catholic, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Roman Catholicism around the year 1054.

If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.

If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.

If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.

If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.

First of all I said distregard that post. But, I’ll answer this. In all charity you follow the Pope(a man). You claim that he is infallible and you claim that your church never errs. That is pretty problematic. You have to go down some rabit holes to keep that up. I haven’t said that I don’t err. and I ask for scriptural evidence to deny my claims and to prove myself wrong, and when I am wrong I concede and I change my thinking. I don’t owe loyalty to anything but the Bible and God. I know that God and the Bible never err. If you think differently then I feel sorry for you.

 

[bjcros]

Ignatius:

bjcross,

In all charity, It is not us but you who follow men. These men and their false doctrines didn’t even exist until the 16th century.

Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:

If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by about 4,000 years ago.

If you are Latin or Eastern rite Catholic, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Roman Catholicism around the year 1054.

If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.

If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.

If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.

If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.

First of all I said disregard that post. But, I’ll answer this. In all charity you follow the Pope(a man). You claim that he is infallible and you claim that your church never errs. That is pretty problematic. You have to go down some rabit holes to keep that up. I haven’t said that I don’t err. and I ask for scriptural evidence to deny my claims and to prove myself wrong, and when I am wrong I concede and I change my thinking. I don’t owe loyalty to anything but the Bible and God. I know that God and the Bible never err. If you think differently then I feel sorry for you.

 

[JackmanUSC]

Again, it is only the teachings which are declared infallible by the Church which are so. Also, infallible does not mean impecable. Popes can sin, but when defining Dogma, which is a strict process, they can not err. Hence the consistency of doctrine in Catholicism vs. Protestantism.

Papal infallibility is often challenged by mentioning Paul’s public rebuke of Peter in Galatians 2:11-14. However, Paul does not oppose Peter’s teaching, but rather Peter’s failure to live consistently with his teaching. It was Peter’s example that everyone followed so his conduct was crucial. Papal infallibility does not guarantee impeccable conduct; it only guarantees infallible teaching under strict conditions (CCC no. 891). Paul acknowledges Peter’s office as “Rock” by referring to his as “Cephas” eight times-the title Christ himself had chosen. Tertullian (c. 160-c. 225) wrote, “If Peter was reproached [by Paul] . . . the fault certainly was one of procedure and not of doctrine” (On Prescription Against the Heretics, 23).

James’ pastoral summary at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) does not nullify Peter’s primacy. On the contrary, Peter delivered a binding pronouncement and defined doctrine. Only after Peter spoke did the debating assembly “keep silence” (Acts 15:12). After Paul relates his experiences, James spoke, as the bishop of Jerusalem, to summarize, quoting Peter along with Scripture. In 1 Peter 5:1, Peter’s calls himself a “fellow elder”. This humble greeting does not diminish Peter’s authoritative office anymore than the President’s words “My fellow Americans” denies Presidential authority, or the Popes’ greeting “my fellow bishops” denies Papal authority.

In the first century, Christians and Jews referred to Rome with the pseudonym “Babylon”-persecutor of God’s people. Peter wrote his first epistle from “Babylon” (1 Pet 5:13) where he was later martyred. Jesus prophesied that aged Peter’s arms would be stretched out and John interprets Jesus’ words as foretelling Peter’s death (Jn 21:18-19). After decades of spreading the Gospel and ruling as Bishop of Rome, Peter’s noble apostolate ended in crucifixion, though his Petrine office continued. Early Church history consistently affirms Peter’s crucifixion and burial in Rome around AD 67. From the first century onward, the chair of Peter in Rome was revered among the Church Fathers.