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bjcros
Guest
Where did Jesues say that these are neccesary for salvation Marriage, Holy Orders, Confession, Confirmation, Annointing of the sick, and Baptism?
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bjcros
Guest
The Church says it cannot err in anything that it says. I didn’t even mention sin. First of all, the Catholics have been consistent because they have to go through some rabit holes not to say they are wrong. They have erred. And that is the thing that gets them in trouble. Protestants don’t claim they don’t err. Protestants aren’t really as divided as Catholics claim we are. yes, there are alot of denominations. However, most of them come out of trivial things. Each denomination is actually farely consistent.
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Ignatius
Guest
Ignatius:
He left us His Spirit! Jhn 14:26 “But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” 1Jo 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him”
It is better to trust in God than to put confidence in man (Ps 118:8).
But that puts you back to individual interpretation, you are of mankind, so that even your own interpretation can be in error. Jesus gave us a way of avoiding the errors of individual interpretation. If you read the rest of the context, you will discover that John was speaking of specific people who were opposed to the Church. What John was saying was “You have no need”… You want not to be taught by any of these men, who, under pretence of imparting more knowledge to you, seek to seduce you (ver. 26), since you are sufficiently taught already, and have all knowledge and grace in the church, with the unction of the Holy Spirit; which these new teachers have no share in.
May the peace of Christ be with you.
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Max_Kolbe
Guest
Friend I think it would help everyone here if you could explain what you think the church teaches about “infallibilty” and “err”…I think if we can understand what you have been taught about these things we can better answer your questions.
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Ignatius
Guest
Actually, Jesus said that gave Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven” and “whatsoever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven”. This means all Authority and guidance of the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, I have listed above the men which you, yourself follow, (Church of Christ, right, 1900 years after Christ).Ignatius:
If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by about 4,000 years ago.
If you are Latin or Eastern rite Catholic, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Roman Catholicism around the year 1054.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.
I’ll answer this. In all charity you follow the Pope(a man).
That’s good, because the Catholic Church which defined and decreed the New Testament and what it consted of, under the Authority of Jesus Christ with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, So you received what portion of the Truth that you have from the Catholic Church. I
What, for following Jesus Christ and His Church? I pray that the Holy Spirit will remove the scales from your eyes and lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. Ephphetha!
Let us go forth to love and serve the Lord.
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michaelgazin
Guest
Protestants will claim of the sufficiency of the Bible all day long, yet never once can they prove it is inspired and God’s Word, outside of the Catholic Church.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Where do you get that from? The Jews had no uniform canon at the time. The books of Moses were included, but they could read from whatever. Do you have an official statement from 33A.D. showing which books were in the old testament and which weren’t?
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
You’re kidding right?
If you wish to enter life keep the commandments:
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honor your father and your mother.
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Even if his wits should fail him in his old age, do not revile him…
If not, I assume your family and you have differing religious views.
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JohnDee
Guest
I am a protestant, but I don’t believe in scripture alone, and most of the rest of us don’t either. If the rest of the protestants believed in scripture alone, we wouldn’t have all of those (annoying) TV preachers giving their half cents’ worth. They have to get their ideas from somewhere (maybe the Holy Spirit, but I seriously doubt it), and most of them claim that God gives it to them directly, without consulting the Word to verify that they have the Truth. When I listen to some of the loco-weed inspired fluff-n-stuff that they preach, I begin doubt that they have spoken with God for a looooong time. My point here is that even though Protestants claim to believe in scripture alone, in reality, they don’t, and never did. We still listen to man and his interpretation (rightly or wrongly) of God’s Word and even of simple every day events.
I am not sure yet just what I do believe, but I believe that God still talks to us, and through us, and with us. He can speak directly to one of the faithful, or He will use others to pass on His message, or we might find a meaningful verse in the Bible that perfectly conveys His thoughts towards us, no matter our situation or circumstance.
I am truly tired of people telling me that “if it ain’t in the Bible, it didn’t happen, won’t happen, or it is wrong!”
J
I am not sure yet just what I do believe, but I believe that God still talks to us, and through us, and with us. He can speak directly to one of the faithful, or He will use others to pass on His message, or we might find a meaningful verse in the Bible that perfectly conveys His thoughts towards us, no matter our situation or circumstance.
I am truly tired of people telling me that “if it ain’t in the Bible, it didn’t happen, won’t happen, or it is wrong!”
J
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I agree. Sola Scriptura is a slogan, not a reality. Protestants follow their “school of thought” or “extra-biblical helps” while they typically deny they do so. It’s rather absurd.
Here’s a quote from the preface of the KJV bible, given to my wife by her Protestant family…
Extra-biblical helps which “only serve to illuminate and make the brilliant gems of truth even brighter?” Hmmmm…isn’t that what Catholics claim of Sacred Tradition, the Creeds, canon law, the teachings of the Magisterium? It’s seems our Protestant brethren “pick and choose” which of the so-called “helps” illuminate and which “helps” they reject and polemically label “traditions of men.”
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bjcros
Guest
Huiou Theou:
First of all, I am no longer bound by the law of the Old Testament. I honor my father and my mother. It is because I follow God that I honor them. I don’t follow any teaching of anyone just because of who they are. My ultimate authority is the Holy Spirit and the Bible.
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bjcros
Guest
I thought that Catholics held church tradition and teaching on the same level as Scripture. Is this not the view? If it isn’t then I apologize for my ignorance. The only problem I have is the view that it is on the same level as Scripture and also binds all Christians.
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bjcros
Guest
Max Kolbe:
There have been different views on who has Salvation, in the church. By themselves they don’t contradict each other. However, if they are all correct and the church didn’t err. Then it means that I and a great many are outside of Salvation because we are not in the Catholic Chruch. Because the church has said that there is no salvation outside of the church(Catholic Church). It has also said that there is no Salvation outside of Christ. I agree with the second teaching. The first teaching means that all those who are outside of the Catholic Church are outside of Salvation. People who claim to be Catholic say that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that people outside of the Catholic Church are outside of Salvation. My problem is that if the church never errs then how can it not teach that I and anyone else are outside of Salvation. Either the church was wrong, or those who say that people outside of the Catholic Church can have Salvation are wrong. Which is it?
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VociMike
Guest
Why does the RCC insist that they know better than God?
It doesn’t – challenge the person to show otherwise through Church documents. That’s an obnoxious start to their argument.
Relying on the traditions of men rather than God’s own Word is in essence saying you know more or better than God.
First of all, the Word of God is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, not Scripture. They are elevating Scripture to Diety when they capitalize like that.
Who says they are “traditions of men”? The mere fact that the phrase is “traditions of men” rather than simply “traditions” indicates that there must be other traditions that are not of men.
Men have proved to be corrupt.
And yet corrupt men wrote the Scriptures. Now what?
The church has proved to be corrupt on and off over the years.
It was of course that corrupt Church that discerned which writings were Scripture in the first place. That’s true no matter how you choose to define “church”.
It doesn’t – challenge the person to show otherwise through Church documents. That’s an obnoxious start to their argument.
Relying on the traditions of men rather than God’s own Word is in essence saying you know more or better than God.
First of all, the Word of God is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, not Scripture. They are elevating Scripture to Diety when they capitalize like that.
Who says they are “traditions of men”? The mere fact that the phrase is “traditions of men” rather than simply “traditions” indicates that there must be other traditions that are not of men.
Men have proved to be corrupt.
And yet corrupt men wrote the Scriptures. Now what?
The church has proved to be corrupt on and off over the years.
It was of course that corrupt Church that discerned which writings were Scripture in the first place. That’s true no matter how you choose to define “church”.
- God’s Word is inerrant. Why would anyone want to rely on fallible traditions of men when they can rely on Holy Scripture breathed from God himself?*
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bjcros
Guest
I’m not in the Church of Christ. I don’t accept the Pope as Peter’s sucessor but that is another discussion. In reading your response to my quote I need to ask this, do you not believe that the Pope is a man? I do follow Jesus Christ. I don’t follow the Catholic Church. Almost any church claims to be Christ’s church. My views on many things probably aren’t different then yours, but I differ on quite a few issues and that is why I’m not Catholic.
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Tom
Guest
BJ, I know sometimes it’s difficult to follow these posts, you took my answer out of context again, I was answering a challange:
TESSfromCALVARY:
Tom:
bjcros:
My answer to this particular challange was:
The challenge had nothing to do with salvation, therefore:
they are simply matches from Scripture to specific teachings of the Catholic Church. I’m sorry you misunderstood.
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bjcros
Guest
Alright, thank you for the clarification. Does the church not teach that all of the sacraments are required for Salvation? If so, where do they get the biblical basis for saying that the sacraments that I listed are required for Salvation?
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Tom
Guest
I really understand your view, however, you also reject Catholic teachings which are Scriptural, simply because they are Catholic. Again, take the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, they are ALL very well documented in Scripture, do you accept them? The real presence in the Eucharist is a wonderful example, PLEASE read John 6, by yourself, with no Catholic and no protestant “helper” just the Holy Spirit. Jesus repeats over and over again it’s real, not simply symbolic.
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Tom
Guest
These are the types of statements which make me question people “following” Scripture. It’s not possible to read the New Testament and not understand that Jesus did in fact establish a Church, you would have to twist Scripture so much to come away with that idea. Please, do yourself a favor, read Scripture without anyone telling you what to think, you’ve been brainwashed.
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Tom
Guest
A fair example of Catholic doctrine, with some minor changes. The Church is indeed “body of Christ and is made up of all believers”. That is almost exactly a quote from the Catechism, but, the Church is so much more. It is also the building in town where Jesus is actually present, that’s why we light candles in the sanctuary when a consecrated host is present. The Church is also the physical organization Jesus Himself established prior to and then after His death and resurrection. Remember He remained with His Church for a long while AFTER His resurrection to guide it. Read Scripture!
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