sola scriptura

  • Thread starter Thread starter tweetiebird
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
(Apologies for the brevity but I’m using my phone).
Your argument seems to be that we don’t need anything but the bible, and you characterize the Catholic argument as one that requires an infallible “middle man.” So, my question is - Do you believe the Apostle Peter was a “middle man”?
Not precisely whaf I was saying, stew (I can sympathize with the phone thing lol). What I reject is the notion that the Scriptures are the most incoherent document ever written. To me, such statements that were made earlier, such as even coming close to comparing God’s eternal truth to the Qu’ran, etc., are to me wholly blasphemous in nature. Those kinds of assertions betray the lengths one will go to defend the church at the expense of revelation. No, God is not incompetent to communicate His saving message. No infallible interpretation necessary. Does it require interpretation? Yes. It’s basic message is quite clear, however.
 
When we come to the point where the tire meets the pavement…it comes down to interpretation. The Real Prescence is the center of the apostolic teaching in the apostolic Church. It was taught by the Fathers, Saints, and Councils. And yet many groups from the reformation denied it…and re-interpreted as figuritive and symbolic.
Mickey, there are many interpretations put forward by the fathers that you don’t agree with. We all do this. Am I saying none of them held to the “real presence”? No. Nor does my faith de facto rely on every statement made by fathers and councils.
 
Mickey, there are many interpretations put forward by the fathers that you don’t agree with. We all do this. Am I saying none of them held to the “real presence”? No. Nor does my faith de facto rely on every statement made by fathers and councils.
The consensus of the Fathers confirms the Real Presence.

Where do you get your interpretation that they are mistaken?
 
Not precisely whaf I was saying, stew (I can sympathize with the phone thing lol). What I reject is the notion that the Scriptures are the most incoherent document ever written. To me, such statements that were made earlier, such as even coming close to comparing God’s eternal truth to the Qu’ran, etc., are to me wholly blasphemous in nature. Those kinds of assertions betray the lengths one will go to defend the church at the expense of revelation. No, God is not incompetent to communicate His saving message. No infallible interpretation necessary. Does it require interpretation? Yes. It’s basic message is quite clear, however.
First, no one is claiming that Sacred Scripture and the Koran are equal.

Second, it’s quite clear that there are numerous interpretations of scripture, and all claim to be The Truth. Tell me - is there a church one can look to as the pillar and bulwark of truth?
 
The consensus of the Fathers confirms the Real Presence.

Where do you get your interpretation that they are mistaken?
(Should probably begin a new thread on this topic - if you do, please let me know…)
 
First, no one is claiming that Sacred Scripture and the Koran are equal.
Saying Scripture can no more be legitimized than the Qu’ran without an infallible magisterium sure seems like it to me.
Second, it’s quite clear that there are numerous interpretations of scripture, and all claim to be The Truth. Tell me - is there a church one can look to as the pillar and bulwark of truth?
I cant answer that according to an exegetical presupposition that “church” in Scripture means “hierarchical magisterium.” It’s not one that I share. The church is every regenerate Christian formed into one body. Every regenerate Christian is part of the pullar and bulwark of the truth.
 
Saying Scripture can no more be legitimized than the Qu’ran without an infallible magisterium sure seems like it to me.
The point is - Protestants know the bible is Sacred Truth because a council of bishops (read: the OHCA Church led by the Holy Spirit) told them so.
I cant answer that according to an exegetical presupposition that “church” in Scripture means “hierarchical magisterium.” It’s not one that I share. The church is every regenerate Christian formed into one body. Every regenerate Christian is part of the pullar and bulwark of the truth.
Ah… The “invisible church” theory…
 
The point is - Protestants know the bible is Sacred Truth because a council of bishops (read: the OHCA Church led by the Holy Spirit) told them so.
No, we know Scripture is sacred truth for other reasons. Namely Jesus.
Ah… The “invisible church” theory…
No…the invisible church is related to the wheat and the tares.
 
(Should probably begin a new thread on this topic - if you do, please let me know…)
That’s fine. But I was making a point. Sola Scriptura has been defined as: “Scripture being the only infallible source of revelation.”

But what happens when interpretation becomes an issue. The Real Prescence is the center of the apostolic faith. It is clearly spelled out in Sacred Scripture and supported by Sacred Tradition. And yet millions of prostetants have come to reject it.

I will move it to another thread if I have the time.
 
That’s fine. But I was making a point. Sola Scriptura has been defined as: “Scripture being the only infallible source of revelation.”

But what happens when interpretation becomes an issue. The Real Prescence is the center of the apostolic faith. It is clearly spelled out in Sacred Scripture and supported by Sacred Tradition. And yet millions of prostetants have come to reject it.

I will move it to another thread if I have the time.
interpretation always becomes an issue Mickey, whether its Scripture or tradition.
 
What I reject is the notion that the Scriptures are the most incoherent document ever written.
I’ve seen this in action - I know one unchurched person who who found a Bible and, in his study of it, came to an almost perfect worship seemingly by the grace of the holy spirit.

He’s now in a church and is happy to have a fuller worship, but what I saw with him and a bible astounded me.
 
That’s fine. But I was making a point. Sola Scriptura has been defined as: “Scripture being the only infallible source of revelation.”

But what happens when interpretation becomes an issue. The Real Prescence is the center of the apostolic faith. It is clearly spelled out in Sacred Scripture and supported by Sacred Tradition. And yet millions of prostetants have come to reject it.

I will move it to another thread if I have the time.
May I ask you a question in return, Mickey?

Does scripture and tradition say that the Bishop of Rome, as sole successor to Peter, alone possess the keys and as such, is the vicar of Christ on earth, the head of the entire church on earth, with the authority to proclaim dogma ex cathedra that is binding on all Christians everywhere?

Or does Scripture and tradition teach that all bishops are successors to Peter, that all possess the keys, of which the Bishop of Rome is an equal part?

And how do I know which is true and which is not?
 
I’ve seen this in action - I know one unchurched person who who found a Bible and, in his study of it, came to an almost perfect worship seemingly by the grace of the holy spirit.

He’s now in a church and is happy to have a fuller worship, but what I saw with him and a bible astounded me.
His word doesn’t return void, ben. Amen.

Luther once quipped that any plowboy with a Bible can read it, understand it and believe on the Christ for the forgiveness of his sins. The only thing that will ruin the deal is a clergyman standing to the side telling him what it really means.
 
Luther once quipped that any plowboy with a Bible can read it, understand it
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:16
The only thing that will ruin the deal is a clergyman standing to the side telling him what it really means.
We know how the former clergyman felt about clergymen…don’t we? :rolleyes:

By the way…can you provide a link to that quote? I’d like to read it.
 
Okay… So is there one-holy-catholic-&-apostolic church?
All blood washed saints that have been transformed by the grace of God by hearing the** “faith that was* once for all delivered *to the saints” **(Jude 1:3), i.e. apostolic teachings that are found only in Holy Writ, belong to the holy, universal, apostolic church.
 
. .From a Lutheran perspective, the only essential difference is that SS holds scripture to be the sole final norm. . .
. . .Now, what modern world is calling Sola Scriptura does bother me greatly - but that’s not what Luther taught, or what Lutherans should be doing. . . .
Jon & ben,
I was hoping one or both of you would comment on the way Luther used Sola Scriptura. Luther only applied Sola Scriptura to the Books he judged to be worthy.

**Cut & Paste from Post #78:. . .**Luther wrote Prefaces for Books in his German Bible. In his Preface to the Epistles of Saint James and Saint Jude, he wrote:

. . ."However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle, and my reasons follow.

In the first place it **is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works ** 2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); Though in Romans 4:22-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Although it would be possible to “save” the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses’ words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham’s works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham’s works. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.

In the second place** its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. He names Christ several times; however he teaches nothing about him, but only speaks of general faith in God. Now it is the office of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and resurrection and office of Christ, and to lay the foundation for faith in him, as Christ himself says in John 15:27], "You shall bear witness to me.? All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach and inculcate [treiben] Christ. And that is the true test by which to judge all books, when we see whether or not they inculcate Christ. For all the Scriptures show us Christ, Romans 3:21]; and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ, I Corinthians 2:2]. Whatever does not teach Christ is not yet apostolic, **even though St. Peter or St. Paul does the teaching. Again, whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod were doing it." (ibid).

**But this James does nothing more than drive to the law and its works. **Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching. He calls the law a “law of liberty” [1:25], though Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death, and of sin. . . .

. . . .In a word, **he wanted to guard against those who relied on faith without works, but was unequal to the task ** in spirit, thought, and words. He mangles the Scriptures and thereby opposes Paul and all Scripture. He tries to accomplish by harping on the law what the apostles accomplish by stimulating people to love. Therefore I cannot include him among the chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. Therefore I will not have him in my Bible to be numbered among the true chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. One man is no man in worldly things; how then, should this single man alone avail against Paul and all Scripture.

Concerning the epistle of St. Jude
,. . .Therefore, although I value this book, it is an epistle that need not be counted among the chief books which are supposed to lay the foundations of faith."

Links:
A look at the preface to James and Jude

Preface To The Epistles of Saint James and Saint Jude 1545 (1522)

See also Luther’s criticisms of Revelation:

“. . .it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic. . .”
“. . . .I think of it almost as I do of the Fourth Book of Esdras, and can nohow detect that the Holy Spirithttp://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=godruleslinks-20&l=ur2&o=1 produced it. . . .”
“. . . .let everyone think of it as his own spirit gives him to think. My spirit cannot fit itself into this book. . . .”
Link: Preface to the Revelation of Saint John (2) 1522 FT510
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top