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fhansen
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There are many interpretations of scripture-which one should we follow? The CC was teaching the true faith before one word of the NT was written.
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batman1973
Guest
No. Jesus says that He is the “Way the truth and the life”.
As regards to why Lutherans and Baptists don’t agree on the Real Presence isn’t a ss issue. It’s an interpretive issue. The Bible makes it clear that we are to partake of communion. It’s up for debate on whether it’s symbolic or not.(Google it. It’ll make your head spin) This is where tradition, in accordance with scripture comes into play. Scripture says to take and eat. Tradition says that it’s the real blood and real flesh of our Lord and Savior. Lutherans, as do many other high churches have no quarrels with traditions that are in line with scripture.
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batman1973
Guest
Well, the fact that Protestantism has survived for 500 years and keeps going kinda shoots holes in your theory. As it’s been pointed out, the Holy Spirit is the final interpretive authority. The majors matter more than the minors.But tell me, how’s the healing of the Great Schism going? Or, more recently, how’s the division with the Society of St. Pius X going? The Orthodox left cause they disagree with the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, and the SSPX if I’m not mistaken, broke away because they felt that Vat.2 made the church too liberal. (Please correct me if I’m wrong on the SSPX)
Remember, Jesus said to take the log out of your own eye, before trying to remove specs from other’s eyes.(Matt 7:5)
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PRmerger
Guest
Egg-zactly.
And that is because there is no authority in Protestantism to declare, “This is what Sola Scriptura means…” for which each and every Christian must submit.
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batman1973
Guest
And I belong to Christ’s Church. I believe that she has the binding authority, and that authority comes from Christ, and His Word, the Holy Bible.Thank you. I hope I didn’t come uncharitable as well, my apologies if I did.
If you were, it was reactionary to me, so no worries.
Here is the problem with your proposal and how it actually supports what I have been saying:
If there wasn’t a council - then the Church didn’t get together to determine the best course of action. See where your verse (Matt 18:20) is coming around?
No, what it means is that when believers gather in the Name of Jesus, He promises that He will be there.
Look at the Church’s Councils throughout the ages. The Church - not individuals making their single determination.
Which is why you have man made doctrines. Your church won’t acknowledge scripture as the final authority. That’s what happens.
The Holy Spirit talks to whom He wills. But what happens when you see the Holy Spirit contradicting each interpretation of the same principle (Sola Scriptura)? A principle that has no history or support from the Church that received and discern the very Scriptures that are supposed to be alone!
Sighs Personal interpretation is not sola scriptura
The Bishops, Priests and Deacon are also Scriptural and delineated by St. Paul. A Tradition (Capital T) preserved by the Catholic Church. Holy Orders come from The laying of the hands, Not from the grabbing of a Bible.
The laying on of hands still happens in many Churches.
Tradition is not over Scripture, they are both together - not alone. But you are still missing a part: The Teaching Office. See my post above in regards to the Great Commission and what Christ **actually **gave us with the Scriptures.
The Teaching Office is fine, IF it teaches according to scripture, not wresting the scripture to fit man made doctrine.
As to the other things - Where does it say in Scriptures that all measures of Faith are to be found in Scriptures only?
Then what’s the point of the written word? Why bother? It’s obvious. God knew that man made traditions would creep in. St. Paul warned of this in a few letters.The written word was given to set the Church correct.
When Christ said: “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you lose on earth, will be loosed in heaven”. Whatever means whatever. This Church, with Christ’s authority bound what Scriptures is. This book you hold in your hand, you would not have without the Church, this Church Christ commanded in Matthew 28 and whose rock is in Matthew 18.
as a side note, I don’t see how people can respond in quotes. It was kind of hard.
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benjohnson
Guest
Lutherans would agree with this - Sola Scriptura is a practice of the church. Scripture only trumps tradition when they disagree.
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Bballer32
Guest
The Roman empire was considered unstoppable and collapsed after 503 years. The Protestant Churches are actually only at 497 years old, so there is still time
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hn160
Guest
And where do you get the idea that you are receiving Christ’s actual Body and Blood in the Holy Eurchast, if it is not from the Bible? The Bible is God’s inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine. Sola Scriptura.
LaughingBoy1503
Well-known member
And the Church, in which He chose to give us the canon of scripture, is totally irelevent to His plan of salvation?
As far as the idea of the actual Body and Blood… tell that to the other Sola Scriptura “Bible only” denominations who do not believe in The True presence. The Church, by the Holy Spirit, declared what scripture is God inspired and what is not. That same Church interpreted Our Lords Words “This IS my body” to be literal. That is where I get the idea. I read those words many times before I became Catholic and they never really meant much to me. I don’t know that I would have came to the conclusion that our Lords words were literal if I interpreted that verse for myself. And people can kick and pout and insist that Sola Scriptura was always the sole rule, but it was not. It is ignored that it leads to division, as is evident is so many varying views on what is necessary for salvation, while claiming THEIR view all comes from scripture.
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batman1973
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Well played, well played.The Roman empire was considered unstoppable and collapsed after 503 years. The Protestant Churches are actually only at 497 years old, so there is still time
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Right, but when determining what is and isn’t Scriptures, the Church met and prayed about it. Where is this Protestant meeting to scrutinize Scriptures and receive something different from what the Catholic Church already had?
Man made? You mean like writing the Scriptures man made, like man made Priests, how can you have a Church without man (people)!!! Was Christ not God and man? Are you going to deny Christ’s humanity and manliness? Is he any less because he was a man? Or because He chose 12 men instead of 12 pamphlets or scrolls?
BTW, We are Catholics, not Lutherans. Check Acts 9:31, there you will find us.
Then where is this one Universal Church that determines what Sola Scriptura means over all the others?
Where is this divine principle established in Scriptures?
Where was this idea for the first 1,500 years of the Christian Church?
Like Sola Scriptura?
There is a flip side to that coin; What is the point of the Church? Where is this list of books that comprise what Scriptures is inside Scriptures? I mean, if man put the list together, you must have a divinely inspired source for them.
How about man made ink to write the Scriptures? Or man made letters, man made sentences, man made churches, man made pastors, man made ideas…
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hn160
Guest
Then you did’t understand the little word “is”.
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batman1973
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Right, but when determining what is and isn’t Scriptures, the Church met and prayed about it. Where is this Protestant meeting to scrutinize Scriptures and receive something different from what the Catholic Church already had?
The individual prays to the Holy Spirit who answers to the truth of scripture.
Man made? You mean like writing the Scriptures man made, like man made Priests, how can you have a Church without man (people)!!! Was Christ not God and man? Are you going to deny Christ’s humanity and manliness? Is he any less because he was a man? Or because He chose 12 men instead of 12 pamphlets or scrolls?
Nice Straw man. Not biting.
BTW, We are Catholics, not Lutherans. Check Acts 9:31, there you will find us.
Huh. Lutherans are there too.
Man made like Mariology, Purgatory, the Rosary, indulgences, That the Bishop of Rome is the only Authority.
Then where is this one Universal Church that determines what Sola Scriptura means over all the others?
Which universal church? Rome, Greece, Russia? Or, could it be that we rely on the spirit instead of man made institutions.
Where is this divine principle established in Scriptures?
It’s been listed here a few times.
Where was this idea for the first 1,500 years of the Christian Church?
The Bereans, The Eunuch, Jesus Himself, so yes.It’s been around for a while.
Like Sola Scriptura?
Again, already shown in other threads that the early church practiced true SS.
There is a flip side to that coin; What is the point of the Church? Where is this list of books that comprise what Scriptures is inside Scriptures? I mean, if man put the list together, you must have a divinely inspired source for them.
You really don’t think much of the Holy Spirit, do you? You seem to put more emphasis on your church than Him. The Holy Spirit is the Final Authority Sacred Scripture. He determined the canon. He is why I believe the canon I have is correct. Now, I agree that the DCs should be included in our bibles.
How about man made ink to write the Scriptures? Or man made letters, man made sentences, man made churches, man made pastors, man made ideas…
There are no man made pastors that I know of. The many that I’ve met over the years all say that they had a calling from God, through prayer and scripture that they were to be a pastor.
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
Great posts Randy, along with # 213 and #214…they are very helpful! Thank you
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rfournier103
Guest
We’re working on it… Please stay tuned to www.catholic.com/ for updates. Thank you.
Yes they did. They reject a VALID Church Council because they didn’t like what the results of it were. I don’t think Bl. John XXIII intended Vatican II to become what it became either; but the Holy Spirit was/is in charge, not John XXIII or SSPX. As you know, the Church (whether you see it as a large “C” or a small “c”) is not a democracy. Jesus did not ask His disciples for their (name removed by moderator)ut, or whether they agreed with what God wanted; they were expected to follow. SSPX has ‘gone off the reservation’, and that’s a shame.
Again; stay tuned.
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rfournier103
Guest
Final authority? Doesn’t Sola Scriptura mean ONLY authority?
Man made doctrines? So say you and your interpretation. Whenever a Catholic doctrine is explained from the Bible that Protestants disagree with (the Papacy; Purgatory) for example; they always say it’s man made.
Again, so say you. Of course you will say “wresting the scripture to fit man made doctrine”. If it were you or YOUR church, you would say “interpretation”.
I agree that we need written Scripture. Solid and unchanging. But that does NOT mean that no tradition is ever allowed, does it? Especially “Tradition” with a big “T”?
In Mark 7:13 Jesus says ~ “You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things.”
Does this condemn ALL traditions? No. I don’t think Jesus, or Paul condemn ALL tradition anywhere in the Bible.
Jesus was NOT speaking to the Catholic Church, because it did not exist yet. He was speaking to the Pharisees about THEIR traditions that went against God’s will. Does the Catholic Church have Traditions or traditions that defy God’s Will?
2 Thess 2:15 ~ Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
It seems here that Paul is paving the way for oral tradition AND written.
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Chiefsinner
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Bible Christians claim that the Holy Spirit teaches them directly. They would point to 1 John 2:26-27, which says, “I write this to you about those who would deceive you, but the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you, as His anointing teaches you about everything.” At first glance, this might appear to support their argument. However, putting it in context reveals something quite different. Note that John begins by saying, “I write this to you about those who would deceive you.” These are the teachers that John tells us we have no need of. Read verses 21-25, and the context becomes even clearer. "I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it…Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what He has promised us, eternal life."
Scripture teaches that Christ established an authoritative church. That is why Paul tells Titus, who headed the church at Crete, to "Exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you" (Titus 2:15). Indeed an authoritative church is necessary in light of 2 Peter 1:20: “You must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” So Scripture makes us complete by showing us that we need it and that we need the Church to teach us what it means. Only a church whose teachings are authoritative and unchanging can qualify as "The Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)
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Novocastrian
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I’m going to go out on a limb and say that virtually all mainstream Protestants will agree with what you’ve just written, with the caveat that the Church need not be centred on an infallible bishop of Rome in order to be the pillar and foundation of the truth, but rather that that status comes from, and only from, the faithful preaching of the Gospel.
Well, while Lutheranism dates back that far, virtually all other protestant communities are younger, and in some instances, far younger.The Roman empire was considered unstoppable and collapsed after 503 years. The Protestant Churches are actually only at 497 years old, so there is still time
Jon
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Wheels on the bus go round and round…
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