Sola Scriptura...

[Randy_Carson]

No. It means the final norm

And the charge is made in the reverse, too.

Correct. It does not exclude Tradition. From a Lutheran perspective, Tradition is a witness to the truth of the faith.

Jon

Jon-

Two questions:

1. What do you think of Congar’s idea that Tradition is a mode of transmission rather than a separate body of content?
2. What, specifically, would be your disagreement with Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium as Catholics understand them? It seems to me that you value both…

 

[SteveVH]

And where do you get the idea that you are receiving Christ’s actual Body and Blood in the Holy Eurchast, if it is not from the Bible?

History itself proves you wrong. The Church believed in the real presence of Christ from its inception as is born out in the writings of the early Church fathers.

The Bible is God’s inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.

How do you know that? Did someone tell you this or did you determine this on your own?

It is the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine. Sola Scriptura.

Where does the Bible say it is the sole rule? Are you not adding words to the Bible?

 

[pablope]

Lutherans would agree with this - Sola Scriptura is a practice of the church. Scripture only trumps tradition when they disagree.

But how does Scripture say the following, or make known the following…“Tradition…you are way over the line…follow what I (Scripture) says on the matter…”

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by hn160 View Post
The Bible is God’s inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.

So…Can you demonstrate or give in instance of when the Bible has acted infallibly?

And how doe God reveal his law and gospel through the Bible?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by batman1973
Which is why you have man made doctrines. Your church won’t acknowledge scripture as the final authority. That’s what happens.

Chapter and verse where Jesus teaches Scripture is the final authority?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by batman1973
Well, the fact that Protestantism has survived for 500 years and keeps going kinda shoots holes in your theory.

And has survived into what? A huge ball of confusion and divisions. Kinda shoots holes in your own theory-eh?

 

[aidanbradypop]

And has survived into what? A huge ball of confusion and divisions. Kinda shoots holes in your own theory-eh?

There might be a lot of different theologies out there but not sure if we can debate on all the wonderful things that the Protestant faiths do around the world.

 

[Nicea325]

There might be a lot of different theologies out there but not sure if we can debate on all the wonderful things that the Protestant faiths do around the world.

Yes they have,but let us not forget which ancient liturgical churches have been doing great and wonderful things long before any Protestant church existed.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that virtually all mainstream Protestants will agree with what you’ve just written, with the caveat that the Church need not be centred on an infallible bishop of Rome in order to be the pillar and foundation of the truth, but rather that that status comes from, and only from, the faithful preaching of the Gospel.

That’s an oft-heard point, but it really doesn’t make sense.
The Church spoken of has to be organically the same Church that existed at the time St. Paul wrote to St. Timothy. There are only TWO legitimate candidates for that, historically speaking, and only ONE with a solid claim.

 

[pocohombre]

Ha! In another thread, in my haste I’ve put “cannon” instead of canon… I’m still trying to figure out what “the scriptural cannon” might be. This is even more interesting when typing with auto-correct as the phone I’m on often tries to pick what word it thinks you mean instead of what you really want to say… So, maybe the canon of scripture contains a cannon that is hearsay heresy?

Kliska. you are making me laugh cause someone did the same thing and the next post had a picture of a military cannon… My slip was aided by me continually typing and correcting “heresay” instead of “hearsay”. Drop off an “a” with no correction and there you have it-“heresy”. It still fits. Scripture sifts this out also. Blessings PS- you do posting on a phone ? Wow!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Kliska. you are making me laugh cause someone did the same thing and the next post had a picture of a military cannon… My slip was aided by me continually typing and correcting “heresay” instead of “hearsay”. Drop off an “a” with no correction and there you have it-“heresy”. It still fits. Scripture sifts this out also. Blessings

You rang?

 

[pablope]

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that virtually all mainstream Protestants will agree with what you’ve just written, with the caveat that the Church need not be centred on an infallible bishop of Rome in order to be the pillar and foundation of the truth, but rather that that status comes from,

and only from, the faithful preaching of the Gospe

Bu then…which gospel according to whom? According to Luther? Calvin? which of the several thousand protestant denoms out there-all claiming to teach the right gospel according their interpretation of the bible?

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts

And finally, the Protestant notion of sola scriptura (the Bible alone) fell apart each time I tried to test it. I began to see that Evangelicalism’s insistence on going by the Bible alone led continually into division and problems. Worse yet, claiming to go by the Bible alone didn’t really provide any certitude of belief for believers

I asked myself where was the “one body, one faith, and one baptism” St. Paul spoke about so passionately? I began to fear that the answer could not be what American missionaries were peddling, at least it couldn’t be the whole answer.

I thought about this choose-your-own-church syndrome constantly. While all of us missionaries from these various denominations proclaimed the purity of our gospel, the truth was, there was no way for any of us to know for sure which of us had it “most right.”

With all the competing voices, how was one to know who was right? What mere man could stand up with a clear conscience before a group of illiterate people and say, “This is what the Bible means?” The sheer arrogance of what was going on made it difficult for me to listen to sermons after a while. All of them were “preaching the gospel.” But whose gospel? I wondered. Around that time, a more fundamental question loomed: What is the gospel?

Still, I wanted to be able to tell a new Christian where he or she could go to church and really learn the truth about God. I began to ask myself, “What exactly is my personal theology?” I felt if only I could firm up my own beliefs, I’d be able to find the answer. The more I thought about this, the scarier my conclusions became, because the bottom line for me and for every other individual Protestant Christian was this: Theology for the modern Evangelical is a matter of his own opinion about what Scripture means.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Bu then…which gospel according to whom? According to Luther? Calvin? which of the several thousand protestant denoms out there-all claiming to teach the right gospel according their interpretation of the bible?

Here is the issue that friend. When you state according to whom…Luther, Calvin, Smith, Cramner…etc, that is no different to a non Catholic than when you state…“according to the RCC or RCC teaching.”

Make sense?

You and I give authority to the OHCAC (you more than I ) but most Protestants do not. Write or wrong…that is for another thread but stating "Calvin, Luther…etc does not really hold water to some.

 

[pocohombre]

Easy, They go together, Not separated, Not alone.

Exactly.

1. Go and make disciples.

What is a disciple ? Did he say there are two kinds ?

1. Baptize them

Are there two baptisms into Christ ?

You see - Christ left us what:
A Teaching Office.

I thought he left us with a church, all baptized into one, all disciples. Yet not all are apostles, nor teachers, nor prophets, nor healers, etc., but all equal disciples-nothing like this before in mankind’s history of religions. The Mary that wept and wiped the Lord’s feet sensed this God-given integrity to the utmost.

What is another name for teaching office?
Magisterium.
There is no way this can be Scriptural
Indeed it is.
And yet some will kick and cry that this is not possible or that it means something else.

That is a big step, to go to biblical giftings , even offices to “magisterium”.
Where does it say a disciple has no authority in Christ unless he is ordained, hand touched by another teacher ? Where does it say the Holy Spirit can not ordain and choose His own ? The church may be the pillar, not just the “Magisterium”. Last I heard is that faith cometh by hearing, and that by the magisterium, oops, I mean, by the Word of God. …We are close but yet far apart. Can’t buy limited interpretation only thru Magisterium. Can’t buy two types of disciples (ordained and Lay). Can’t buy that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is infallible in one and not the other. Yes, I kick against that.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

What is a disciple ? Did he say there are two kinds ?

Are there two baptisms into Christ ?
I thought he left us with a church,all baptized into one, all disciples. Not all are apostles, nor teachers, nor prophets, nor healers, etc

That is a big step, to go to biblical giftings , even offices to “magisterium”.
Where does it say a disciple has no authority in Christ unless he is ordained, hand touched by another teacher ? Where does it say the Holy Spirit can not ordain and choose His own ? The church may be the pillar, not just the “Magisterium”. Last I heard is that faith cometh by hearing, and that by the magisterium, oops, I mean, by the Word of God. …We are close but yet far apart. Can’t buy limited interpretation only thru Magisterium. Can’t buy two types of disciples (ordained and Lay). Can’t buy that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is infallible in one and not the other. Yes, I kick against that.

There is one baptism:

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

You do understand that all Magisterium means is Teaching Office? Right?

You also understand that those in the Magisterium do come from the laity? Right?

You also understand that this same Teaching Office also designates lay people as Catechists, Adult Formation, Youth Formation, etc? Right?

You also understand that the gifts of the Spirit are manifested throughout the entire Church? Right?

You also understand that the Magisterium is here to protect the faithful from departing from the faith that was once for all delivered to all the saints? Right?

It is absolutely irrefutable what happens in Matthew 28. Christ left us a teaching office. Period.

Also the giftings are not Biblical as they were given to believers before there was such a thing as a Bible. Further, Cornelius converted without reading a word from the New Testament, because the NT did not exist. Further, 3,000 people converted on Pentecost before the Bible and also without reading a single word of the New Testament.

 

[pocohombre]

That’s an oft-heard point, but it really doesn’t make sense.
The Church spoken of has to be organically the same Church that existed at the time St. Paul wrote to St. Timothy. There are only TWO legitimate candidates for that, historically speaking, and only ONE with a solid claim.

Judaism could make that claim to us gentiles. Ever heard of grafting in ? We are grafted in, though we are not Jewish by blood, but by His Spirit of Truth. So too can reformers be grafted in to what you consider the Catholic tree, not cause they were Catholic (though most were) but by by the Spirit of truth. So while the tree might be a nation(OT) or a church(NT) it is defined by the Truth In Christ. He is the “vine” the trunk. He clips and prunes.There is much Catholic and much Orthodox and much Protestant in the Tree, though not by those names…So please consider the grafting in.

 

[pocohombre]

There is one baptism:

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

You do understand that all Magisterium means is Teaching Office? Right?

You also understand that those in the Magisterium do come from the laity? Right?

You also understand that this same Teaching Office also designates lay people as Catechists, Adult Formation, Youth Formation, etc? Right?

You also understand that the gifts of the Spirit are manifested throughout the entire Church? Right?

You also understand that the Magisterium is here to protect the faithful from departing from the faith that was once for all delivered to all the saints? Right?

It is absolutely irrefutable what happens in Matthew 28. Christ left us a teaching office. Period.

Also the giftings are not Biblical as they were given to believers before there was such a thing as a Bible. Further, Cornelius converted without reading a word from the New Testament, because the NT did not exist. Further, 3,000 people converted on Pentecost before the Bible and also without reading a single word of the New Testament.

You said nothing about the magisterium being infallibly interpretive first, totally apart from laity…

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I thought he left us with a church, all baptized into one, all disciples. Yet not all are apostles, nor teachers, nor prophets, nor healers, etc.,

OK so far …

but all equal disciples

Whoops! Now you went beyond what the words say. Why?

That is a big step, to go to biblical giftings , even offices to “magisterium”.

Maybe to you it’s a big step, but it’s Biblical.
In Acts 15, the Church decided that circumcision wasn’t required, and that gentiles can be members of the Church without following the Mosaic rules.

But who decided this? A council made up of the Apostles and Bishops.

Where does it say a disciple has no authority in Christ unless he is ordained,

It doesn’t say he has no authority. This is a false dichotomy.

Where does it say the Holy Spirit can not ordain and choose His own ?

He can. However, when He does, it is accomplished along with miracles to demonstrate that the Authority was given in an exceptional way. Such as with St. Paul.

Can’t buy two types of disciples (ordained and Lay).

Too bad, since it is scriptural.

Can’t buy that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is infallible in one and not the other. Yes, I kick against that.

Yeah. So did Korah.
Jude 1:11 Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error, and perish in Korah’s rebellion.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You said nothing about the magisterium being interpretive first, totally apart from laity.

You also understand that the Magisterium is here to protect the faithful from departing from the faith that was once for all delivered to all the saints? Right?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Judaism could make that claim to us gentiles. Ever heard of grafting in ? We are grafted in, though we are not Jewish by blood, but by His Spirit of Truth. So too can reformers be grafted in to what you consider the Catholic tree, not cause they were Catholic (though most were) but by by the Spirit of truth. So while the tree might be a nation(OT) or a church(NT) it is defined by the Truth In Christ. He is the “vine” the trunk. He clips and prunes.There is much Catholic and much Orthodox and much Protestant in the Tree, though not by those names…So please consider the grafting in.

OK, let’s consider that.

What did it take to demonstrate the grafting in of gentiles? Church councils, miracles, dreams to St. Peter.

Where do you find these sorts of things about the reformers?

ANYONE can claim they’re “grafted in.” For it to be considered true, God must say so.