Sola Scriptura...

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If you do not believe in Sola Scriptura, what other legitimate authority do you recognize as a source of the Truth. ?
What I stated in the other thread was not that I didn’t believe in sola Scriptura, rather that I don’t believe in SOLO Scriptura. Sola Scriptura does not mean that there are no other authorites, rather, Scripture is the final authority. The Reformed believe that Scripture is quite clear on the primary issues and through careful study of the text’s grammar and context on can usually come to a consensus on what a specific text means.

Other authorites include pastors, teachers, elders, and old dead guys like the Reformers and the ECFs.

Sometimes sola Scriptura is characterized as “me and my bible” interpretation, and while that surely occurs and is taught by unstable men, it is not what the principle indicates or stands for.
 
An example of what sola Scripture means can be found here:
“This seal have thou ever on thy mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures.”
“But take thou and hold that faith only as a learner and in profession, which is by the Church delivered to thee, and is established from all Scripture. For since all cannot read the Scripture, but some as being unlearned, others by business, are hindered from the knowledge of them; in order that the soul may not perish for lack of instruction, in the Articles which are few we comprehend the whole doctrine of Faith…And for the present, commit to memory the Faith, merely listening to the words; and expect at the fitting season the proof of each of its parts from the Divine Scriptures. For the Articles of the Faith were not composed at the good pleasure of men: but the most important points chosen from all Scriptures, make up the one teaching of the Faith. And, as the mustard seed in a little grain contains many branches, thus also this Faith, in a few words, hath enfolded in its bosom the whole knowledge of godliness contained both in the Old and New Testaments. Behold, therefore, brethren and hold the traditions which ye now receive, and write them on the table of your hearts.” - Cyril of Jerusalem
Also:
“The generality of men still fluctuate in their opinions about this, which are as erroneous as they are numerous. As for ourselves, if the Gentile philosophy, which deals methodically with all these points, were really adequate for a demonstration, it would certainly be superfluous to add a discussion on the soul to those speculations. But while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.” - Gregory of Nyssa
and…
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” - Irenaeus, “Against Heresies” 3.1.1
 
Hey Micah,

Good opening post :tiphat:

Have you by chance read Keith Mathison’s book "The Shape of Sola Scriptura"? That book was excellent for me to come to a better understanding of what maybe Sola Scriptura meant when I was trying to get a better grip on it. And that book helped.

Problem is…well, you are a Reformed Baptist, correct?

Do you believe that the creeds of the Church are authoratative? That is that they are certainly correct, and a person can be required to submit to the teachings of, say, the Niceno-Constantinoplian Creed? Or perhaps the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith?

That’s maybe what Sola Scriptura would lead a person to have to believe. Yes, that’s very different than the version of the doctrine that is held by many modern evangelicals, and very different from how us Catholics typically characterized it as being.
 
I’ve not read Mathison’s book. I have read the three-volume set of Webster/King, which I found quite enlightening and highly recommend to anyone seeking more information regarding the doctrine and the “development” (if you will 😉 ) thereof.
Do you believe that the creeds of the Church are authoratative?
In that they agree with Scripture, yes.
…Or perhaps the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith?
Let’s say one was to join a church that used the 1689 confession, in becoming a member they’re in essence agreeing to the 1689 and placing themselves under the watch of the elders of said church. In this way the confession is “authoritative”, but again, as it conforms to Scripture.
Yes, that’s very different than the version of the doctrine that is held by many modern evangelicals, and very different from how us Catholics typically characterized it as being.
Catholics rightly attack ‘solo scriptura’, which in fact does exist in evangelical, charismatic and other type churches, however, when combating sola Scriptura the strawman “me and my bible” cannot apply… unfortunately it is rare to encounter a person who has much understanding of either church history or the origination of doctrine.
 
I’ve not read Mathison’s book. I have read the three-volume set of Webster/King, which I found quite enlightening and highly recommend to anyone seeking more information regarding the doctrine and the “development” (if you will 😉 ) thereof.

Let’s say one was to join a church that used the 1689 confession, in becoming a member they’re in essence agreeing to the 1689 and placing themselves under the watch of the elders of said church. In this way the confession is “authoritative”, but again, as it conforms to Scripture.
Yes. “Holy Scripture” trilogy by Webster&King.

About the 1689 Confession, may I use that point as a particular point to inquire about?

If that confession is “authoratative,” then would someone legitimately be able to disagree with it and still be Biblical in their beliefs?

For instance…don’t you think that the original authors of the 1689 confession were convinced that it was completely in line with Biblical teaching? Don’t you also believe that the theologians collectively known as the “Westminster Divines” that wrote the Westminster Conf. of Faith 43 years earlier were convince that their confession was completely Biblical?

However, there are at least a couple glaring opposites, such as “baptism by immersion only vs. pouring or sprinkling” and “infants should not vs. infants should be baptized.” Those are not minor technicalities. Those are practices that result from their overall approach to God’s covenantal dealings with man. You could say that **those opposites are a result of contradictory theologies and approaches to Scripture. **

If you have 2 contradictory yet authoratative (in so far as they conform to Scripture) confessions, how is a person to decide which one to believe?

Does not the individual become the authority and then decide which one they will submit to as correct and authoratative?
 
Does not Sola Scriptura mean that “All revealed truth is contained in Sacred Scripture”?

Therefore if we find a teaching that is not in Scripture it should be rejected?

Isn’t that it?

It CANNOT BE SO for there exists a revealed truth that is not in Scripture.

The Canon of Scripture is a truth revealed by God. Just open your Bible to the table of contents, the page that tells you what books are in the Christian Bible.

That Canon is “Sacred Tradition” that is Divine Revelation that IS NOT SCRIPTURE.

Therefore the Reformed Theory of Sola Scriptura is not true and should be rejected.

Ken

Ken
 
An example of what sola Scripture means can be found here:
If you consider Cyril worthy to speak on the matter I will post other things Cyril preached

1)Peter’s supremacy
…Peter, the foremost of the Apostles and chief herald of the Church,…enlightened in his mind from the Father, says to Him, Thou art the Christ, not only so, but the Son of the living God…
…In the power of the same Holy Spirit Peter also, the chief of the Apostles and the bearer of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, …
  1. Succession of bishops
… then fifteen Bishops of Jerusalem were appointed in succession from among the Hebrews. What then is your reason for allowing your own accounts, and rejecting ours, …
  1. The nature of the Church
  1. It is called Catholic then … because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it brings into subjection to godliness the whole race of mankind, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals the whole class of sins, which are committed by soul or body, and possesses in itself every form of virtue which is named, both in deeds and words, and in every kind of spiritual gifts.
    25… the Saviour built out of the Gentiles a second Holy Church, the Church of us Christians, concerning which he said to Peter, And upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. …Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
  1. Regarding the eucharist
…Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord’s declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to thee, yet let faith establish thee. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouch-safed to thee.
 
Does not Sola Scriptura mean that “All revealed truth is contained in Sacred Scripture”?
As I understand it, that’s the Solo Scriptura the original poster doesn’t adhere to. It’s relatively easier to defeat than the Sola Scriptura he espouses.

Not that, ultimately, there’s much difference at all. In the end, private interpretation of the Bible is still the final authority, whether the person believes in Sola or Solo Scriptura. When MicahBurke says that creeds are authoritative, “In that they agree with Scripture,” what he really means is that they’re authoritative “In that they agree with my interpretation of Scripture.” Which is to say that they have no real authority at all; all their authority is derived from the believer’s own self-proclaimed authority to interpret the Bible.

It’s the same problem he maligns Solo Scriptura believers for holding: when it comes down to it, it really is just him and the Bible. Nothing at all can bind him from interpreting the Bible in such a way as to render all creeds unauthoritative.

sola-solo-who-really-cares’ly yours,
Jeremy
 
Does not Sola Scriptura mean that “All revealed truth is contained in Sacred Scripture”?

Therefore if we find a teaching that is not in Scripture it should be rejected?

Isn’t that it?

That Canon is “Sacred Tradition” that is Divine Revelation that IS NOT SCRIPTURE.

Therefore the Reformed Theory of Sola Scriptura is not true and should be rejected.

Ken

Ken
Agreed Ken!!

But…that is why a good advocate of Sola Scriptura will not deny the authority of the Church in certain things. Keith Mathison uses the term “Tradition 1” (He sets forth Tradition 0 through 4, with 4 being the current Catholic view). Tradition 1 is that Scripture must be interpreted through the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church.

For instance, through the Church Fathers, some early Councils, etc. So that’s where we get the Canon of Scripture, and certain doctrines regarding the Trinity and infant baptism and such.

But of course,we would say that, according to those Church Fathers and the early Councils, the Holy Spirit tells us we better be Catholic and use the Catholic Bible!

Tradition 0 is like the non-denominational “me and the Bible, we are winging it together, hold on!” view. That’s…not feasible either. But it is very attractive to many.
 
Tradition 1 is that Scripture must be interpreted through the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church.

For instance, through the Church Fathers, some early Councils, etc. So that’s where we get the Canon of Scripture, and certain doctrines regarding the Trinity and infant baptism and such.
Which, of course, still boils down to the interpretatation of the private individual as to exactly where in the early Church the Holy Spirit was speaking.

“The Holy Spirit was speaking when the Fathers taught X, but not when they taught Y” still makes the individual the ultimate arbiter of truth.

Jeremy
 
First problem I have with the supposed distinction between “solo scriptura” and “sola scriptura” is the words themselves. Doesn’t the English word “solo” have the same meaning as the Latin word “sola”? Or is it some kind of attempt at a play on words? Or are there two Latin words - solo and sola - that have different meanings?

The second problem is: what exactly is meant by “authority”? If ultimately you are checking every “authority” to determine if it’s decisions are consistent with scripture, then in reality you are the interpretive authority. The word “authority” simply means “person or other entity whose reasoning I agree with” rather than “person or entity that I am obliged to obey”.

If “A” is a person who claims no authority and makes a statement that you agree with, you will behave in a manner consistent with their statement based upon the force of your own reasoning. If “B” is a person who claims authority and makes a statement you agree with, you will also behave in a manner consistent with their statement based upon the force of your own reasoning. If you disagree with either you will act inconsistent with their statement based upon your own reasoning e.g. you believe the statement is “unbiblical” etc. Both result in the same outcome. In reality you are misusing the word “authority” in applying it to either “A” or “B” because in reality you will only “obey” either when you agree with them.

Can you imagine someone suggesting that a court had “authority” if in fact a convict could simply say “Your Honour I do not agree with your reasoning and therefore will be leaving the court immediately”. It would be a strange sort of entity to label an “authority” wouldn’t it?

It seems people are inadvertently equivocating in their meaning of “authority”. Formally, they use it to mean some kind of jurisdictional authority akin to a court, but in substance it is being treated as a non-binding authority, akin to a trusted professor.

So in reality, all Protestant ecclessiology appears to resolve down to: scripture and the completely morally autonomous individual. Sure there are churches that claim “authority” but at best its a kind of secular democratic authority in the same sense as the Girl Guides or Boy Scouts - you give up a little bit of your own inherent secular authority in exchange for membership of the community.
 
What I stated in the other thread was not that I didn’t believe in sola Scriptura, rather that I don’t believe in SOLO Scriptura. Sola Scriptura does not mean that there are no other authorites, rather, Scripture is the final authority. The Reformed believe that Scripture is quite clear on the primary issues and through careful study of the text’s grammar and context on can usually come to a consensus on what a specific text means.

Other authorites include pastors, teachers, elders, and old dead guys like the Reformers and the ECFs.

Sometimes sola Scriptura is characterized as “me and my bible” interpretation, and while that surely occurs and is taught by unstable men, it is not what the principle indicates or stands for.
Whether you say it is the only authority or the final authority is irrelevant. How can scripture be the final authority when the Church had to define the canon of scripture? The scriptures do not list the scriptural books(If they are the final authority the books it contains must be self evident). You can’t say that they have been accepted from the time of the apostles either. Many early Christians rejected the Johanine corpus because they thought it was chiliastic. Many early Christians rejected all of the Catholic epistles(James, Peter, John, and Jude). The Apocalypse was also rejected by many. Some Christians thought the gospel of the Hebrews was inspired scripture as well. The Apocalypse of Peter was accepted by some as well. The gnostics wrote the gospels of Judas and Thomas and accepted those as scripture. The truth is, without the Church there would be no scriptures. God revealed the canon through His Church.
 
Which, of course, still boils down to the interpretatation of the private individual as to exactly where in the early Church the Holy Spirit was speaking.

“The Holy Spirit was speaking when the Fathers taught X, but not when they taught Y” still makes the individual the ultimate arbiter of truth.

Jeremy
No, the tradition is not determined by individuals, it is determined by the bishops gathered in council in communion with the pope. You can look to the councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage and see that they defined the canon of scripture. The Church accepts the councils of Florence and Trent as being ecumenical and infallible. Both these councils defined the canon of scripture. You can also see the teachings of the Church through its councils.
 
Micah,

Do go on and sort of develop more about what and why you believe the Sola Scriptura as you say it. I think we are all up for and would benefit from more discussion regarding the topic.

Blessings
 
No, the tradition is not determined by individuals, it is determined by the bishops gathered in council in communion with the pope.
Surely you know that I’m Catholic, and I wasn’t arguing against the Catholic teaching about Tradition. I was arguing against the Protestant “Sola Scriptura” insistence that he looks at the Early Church Fathers, and decides whether or not they’re lead by the Holy Spirit in a particular teaching himself, rather than relying on the Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth, to do so.

My argument wasn’t against the Church, it was against the private interpretation of Protestants.

Jeremy
 
Not that, ultimately, there’s much difference at all. In the end, private interpretation of the Bible is still the final authority, whether the person believes in Sola or Solo Scriptura. When MicahBurke says that creeds are authoritative, “In that they agree with Scripture,” what he really means is that they’re authoritative “In that they agree with my interpretation of Scripture.” Which is to say that they have no real authority at all; all their authority is derived from the believer’s own self-proclaimed authority to interpret the Bible.

It’s the same problem he maligns Solo Scriptura believers for holding: when it comes down to it, it really is just him and the Bible. Nothing at all can bind him from interpreting the Bible in such a way as to render all creeds unauthoritative.

sola-solo-who-really-cares’ly yours,
Jeremy
I think you hit the nail right on the head.
 
Whatever you call it, this claim of the Westminster Profession of Faith, is neither expressly found in Sacred Scripture, nor can it be deduced from Scripture (alone). Thus, it is self-refuting.
Westminster Confession of Faith:
The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture…those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them
By way of example, most among the reformed branch of Protestantism affirm the creedal belief that the Son is “eternally begotten of the Father.” This comes from Sacred Tradition. It cannot be found expressly in Scripture, nor can it be deduced from Scripture (alone). Yet it is affirmed by those professing to the confession of faith provided above. This seems rather inconsistent to me.

Catholics believe the Word of God is not merely consisting of the abridged 66-book Protestant Bible, but instead the Word is Jesus Christ, who manifests his truth both in Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. That is what the NT Church taught, that is what the early Church Fathers taught, and that is what Catholicism teaches.

That is why we reject sola (and solo) Scripture, because it abbreviates the true Word of God, when the NT Church always held to oral as well as written tradition, each having equal apostolic teaching authority, each a part of the “deposit of faith” which was traditioned (Gk paradidomi) to the Church by Christ through the apostles. We find no compelling reason why this NT Church view should be abbreviated in favor of a reformed view of the deposit of faith.
 
What I stated in the other thread was not that I didn’t believe in sola Scriptura, rather that I don’t believe in SOLO Scriptura. Sola Scriptura does not mean that there are no other authorites, rather, Scripture is the final authority. The Reformed believe that Scripture is quite clear on the primary issues and through careful study of the text’s grammar and context on can usually come to a consensus on what a specific text means.

Other authorites include pastors, teachers, elders, and old dead guys like the Reformers and the ECFs.

Sometimes sola Scriptura is characterized as “me and my bible” interpretation, and while that surely occurs and is taught by unstable men, it is not what the principle indicates or stands for.
But there is a glaring problem with the above position, and it is this: Who gets to define what Sola Scriptura means? And by what authority?

If the Bible is the final authority on such a matter, then it must be the Bible itself that defines Sola Scriptura. Otherwise, it is just someone’s oral tradition.

Millions of people who believe in Sola Scriptura baptize infants, yet millions of others who believe in Sola Scriptura do not baptize infants. Thus, it is obvious that someone does not understand Sola Scriptura.

But if a person wants a proper understanding of Sola Scriptura as opposed to Solo Scriptura, where does that person go for the answer? To the Reformers? Why do that? They are not the final authority in such a matter.

The final authority on what constitutes Sola Scriptura is the Bible itself, so the question becomes: What part of the Bible defines for us what Sola Scriptura means so that we can know with certainty what it entails?
 
But there is a glaring problem with the above position, and it is this: Who gets to define what Sola Scriptura means? And by what authority?
Well, the definition of Sola Scriptura is a historical fact… the CONTENT and MEANING of Scripture might be in question, but not the definition of sola Scriptura.
If the Bible is the final authority on such a matter, then it must be the Bible itself that defines Sola Scriptura. Otherwise, it is just someone’s oral tradition.
Sola Scriptura is a hermeneutical and ecclesiastical principle, not specifically a doctrine of Scripture itself, though on may argue that the concept is found there.
Millions of people who believe in Sola Scriptura baptize infants, yet millions of others who believe in Sola Scriptura do not baptize infants. Thus, it is obvious that someone does not understand Sola Scriptura.
Untrue, both paedobaptists and credobaptists may ascribe to Sola Scripture as a principle… but they can disagree on the content of Scripture. One will find, however, in salvific matters, that denominations that ascribe to sola Scriptura agree. It is on the secondary (mode and subjects of baptism) and tertiary (eschatology) issues that sola Scriptura denominations differ. Much like Roman Catholics who differ on Augustinian or Aquinan theological constructs.
But if a person wants a proper understanding of Sola Scriptura as opposed to Solo Scriptura, where does that person go for the answer? To the Reformers? Why do that? They are not the final authority in such a matter.
To a Latin dictionary, perhaps… since it is the definition of the words that are important in this case. Again, sola Scriptura does not, in and of itself, define other doctrines, rather it is a principle that states that the final authority is Scripture.

The question here is not about the specific contents of Scripture, but how one comes to understand those contents.
The final authority on what constitutes Sola Scriptura is the Bible itself,
Ok… if you want to take it that way, I’ll show you how it works.
so the question becomes: What part of the Bible defines for us what Sola Scriptura means so that we can know with certainty what it entails?
Well, firstly, one doesn’t go looking to the Bible to determine what “sola Scriptura… entails”, rather in looking through they Bible they come to discover that sola Scriptura is a principle expressed therein (and followed by the Apostles and ECFs).

One looks thru Scripture and finds passages such as 2 Tim 3:16-17 and Acts 17:11 that teach that the Scriptures are sufficient to equip the man of God for every good work, and that the people of Thessalonica didn’t accept anyone testimony without “examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” Herein is the basis for the doctrine… one can, from reading the text, comparing it with other Scriptures, understanding the grammar and such… all by the guidance of the Spirit of God, understand what the Scriptures teach and can therefore determine rightness of given views.

This is the very method that all Roman Catholic apologists engage in when they attempt to argue a point from the text of Scripture that has not been infallibly established by the Pope and/or Magisterium.

Finally, we also note from Scripture the structure of the church and its purpose on Earth and therefore cannot accept the notion of ‘solo scriptura’ as the doctrine is often characterized as. One man, cannot determine a doctrine opposed to the evident meaning of the text, the historical understanding of said text, and the church’s definition of said text. See, that’s where sola and “solo” differ. The church, tradition, pastors, teachers, elders etc have authority, but the final authority is Scripture. Folks may argue over the meaning of difficult passages and secondary and tertiary issues, but the salvific content of Scripture is plain to all.

What generally happens, in any “solo” type context, is that the individual becomes the authority, establishes doctrines opposed to the text and historical understanding and then establishes a cult completely opposed to sola Scriptura. This is evident with groups such as the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and even charismatic groups wherein claims of prophetic visions and the like trump Scripture… these visions and claims then become dogmatic declarations which supercede the Word of God.
 
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