Solipsism

[katesmom]

Partinobodycula - beautifully written! Thank you for replying!! Your words brought tears to my eyes! This post will help others! It has helped me tremendously! I spent 4 months depressed and fighting with the fears I experience (extreme anxiety & depression) I finally accepted the possibility of Solipsism being true and the fears have subsided! It took a lot of time to get to the point of accepting it as a maybe! For me it was the worst fear I’ve ever had & it held onto me very tightly! It took medication and therapy to give me my life back! I’m 90% better!
I cherish life more now than ever!!!

I spend a lot of time in introspection & I really love this quote:
“have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.”

 

[In_Spiration]

Partinobodycula:

All that I know for sure is that I am. I am self-aware.

How do you know that? Have you verified it through any formal proof? If so, I implore you to share (that is, assuming feasibility).

Also, define this “self” of which you speak. Do you know its limits? Tell us roughly what they are or might be – unless you hold that there may not actually be any at all.

However, if there are no limits to your self, then you are undefined and undefinable, and thus solipsism turns out to itself be undefined and undefinable. And in that case none of us can have any definite idea of what we’re even attempting to discuss. On the other hand, if there are limits – if your self has boundaries, some clear-cut, uncrossable border – then I want to know whom/what established such innate terms, such inherent essence.

Is it possible or even coherent to claim that a self ever defines/limits itself? The proposition apparently affirms the existence of a self-created being, i.e., a creature which has determined its very own nature; but such a notion is patently ridiculous. To self-create would simply be to pre-exist one’s own existence, to be prior to oneself, to act upon a subject before there’s any subject upon which to act, or to even do the acting.

Honestly, most of your points are rather vague and baseless. Is there a point to this thread other than encouraging others to excessively doubt and question their own modest claims to knowledge? Have you ever considered the fact that all varieties of skepticism and doubt are inherently parasitic upon knowledge and truth? Doubt requires force if it’s to lead unto any sort of result which somehow empowers skepticism; skepticism is impotent until it acquires rational justification, viz. by reasons founded on justified, prior knowledge. To ask, “Why doubt x?” is obviously to at once make an appeal to something bearing at least as much epistemic thrust as whatever potential doubt it’s supposed to inevitably entail.

And your sentimental ode to the alleged beauty of uncertainty, suffering, solipsistic pleasure, etc., I hesitate to say, is dubious at best, as well as, one might argue, deviously reckless. While I admittedly do find solipsism and radical skepticism intriguing to an extent, I would also be sure to warn against these thought-experiments, specifically for those not securely propped up by sacraments and strong faith. Diving into the depths of this maximal skepticism tempts the philosophically proud, as one is basically trying nothing more than to push his own limits; and this therefore renders the plunge just another way for the deceived mind to trick itself into a self-absorbed obsession with itself, like a dog chasing its tail, or Ouroboros. And there’s almost always going to be room for further descent, so your real mind will merely end up competing against whatever wishful delusions of self-competence have been motivating your desire to self-assess from the beginning.

Finally, I’ll add that I’m a bit wary of your public exhibition of apparent intellectual humility. Everyone ought to read Chesterton’s brilliant, paradoxical essay from Orthodoxy, The Suicide of Thought. A couple relevant excerpts:

The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered (as Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone.

But what we suffer from to-day is humility in the wrong place. Modesty has moved from the organ of ambition. Modesty has settled upon the organ of conviction; where it was never meant to be. A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert—himself. The part he doubts is exactly the part he ought not to doubt—the Divine Reason. Huxley preached a humility content to learn from Nature. But the new sceptic is so humble that he doubts if he can even learn. Thus we should be wrong if we had said hastily that there is no humility typical of our time. The truth is that there is a real humility typical of our time; but it so happens that it is practically a more poisonous humility than the wildest prostrations of the ascetic. The old humility was a spur that prevented a man from stopping; not a nail in his boot that prevented him from going on. For the old humility made a man doubtful about his efforts, which might make him work harder. But the new humility makes a man doubtful about his aims, which will make him stop working altogether.

At any street corner we may meet a man who utters the frantic and blasphemous statement that he may be wrong. Every day one comes across somebody who says that of course his view may not be the right one. Of course his view must be the right one, or it is not his view. We are on the road to producing a race of men too mentally modest to believe in the multiplication table. We are in danger of seeing philosophers who doubt the law of gravity as being a mere fancy of their own. Scoffers of old time were too proud to be convinced; but these are too humble to be convinced. The meek do inherit the earth; but the modern sceptics are too meek even to claim their inheritance. It is exactly this intellectual helplessness which is our second problem.

Solipsism is unforgivable nonsense. Only entertain it to know what a good philosophy will avoid.

 

[tonyrey]

…It’s not that anything that I had to say would change anyone, or convince anyone, or impress anyone, I simply wanted to try, even if it accomplished nothing. I could at least hope, that it would be of some small worth, if only to me. But it strikes me now that there are things which I have left unsaid. Things which speak to the heart of my Solipsism, and so I will try one last time to put them into words. I will disregard the futility, and my own ineptitude, and try.

One would think that Solipsism would produce only apathy. Why should a solipsist care about something that exists only in their mind? I can’t speak for other solipsists, I can only speak for myself. I care, because the alternative is to give up hope, to simply turn my back on the world, and slip inexorably into despair, and I can’t bring myself to do that, I can’t be indifferent, I have tried. Believe me, with all the injustice and hatred in the world, I have tried. You might think that it would be easy for a solipsist to simply block it all out, and pretend it doesn’t matter. After all, it’s not real anyway, and there’s nothing that I can do to change anything. There’s no wondrous deed that I can perform, no inspirational words that I can speak. It would be so much simpler if there were such words. But there aren’t. So why bother to try, it’s so much easier just to be indifferent. But like I say, I’ve tried. Despite so many reasons not to, I care. Maybe not as openly as some, or as deeply as some, but in my own unassuming way, I care. Solipsism is not a justification for indifference. The hatred and intolerance in this world are reason enough for that.

I realize that Solipsism can be depressing. To think that everything that you love may be only an illusion. All the things that once seemed so certain, may be no more than a dream. All the suffering seems pointless, and all the sacrifices meaningless. All you really know, is loneliness. When you speak, no one answers, when you cry, no one hears. You are the creator of all, and the lord of nothing. Some may choose to believe that you fancy yourself a God, but all that you are is alone. All your noble intentions count for nothing, all your compassion touches no one, all your cries go unheard, save but for yourself. To be a Solipsist is to glimpse, for the briefest of moments, the heart of God, to feel the emptiness that such omniscience brings. To know what solitude truly means. In the words of Edna St Vincent Millay, “For my omniscience paid I toll, in infinite remorse of soul.” Only a fool would choose to be a God. Solipsism doesn’t feed one’s ego, it crushes it.

So what is a solipsist to do? There is no other choice, but to cherish this life. Every last fleeting breath of it. Wrap your arms around it and never let go. Revel in all its diversity. For there is nobility, even in despair. There is beauty, even in suffering. In the hardest of times, and in the cruelest of places, abides the majesty of life. Fantastic, wonderful, glorious life. Full of heartache and remorse, love and triumph. In comfort or in struggle, wonderful, glorious life. It begets strength from adversity, mercy from injustice, and compassion from sorrow. Though others deem it too bitter, let my cup runneth over. Let me never dismiss it, let me embrace it. Be I king or pauper, slave or free, let me love my life. For if the alternative is to be alone, then I choose life, even if only a dream. And when it is over and done, and my journey is through, let me remember it all. Every last majestic sunrise, every sultry summer breeze, every love and every loss. Let me treasure them all. As momentary and illusory as they may be, they are not as nothing, they are everything. They are all that I have. They are…life.

You ask, “what if solipsism is true and the people I love dont exist?” Oh, as long as you can wrap your arms around them, they exist. As long as you can remember them, they will be. They are your heart and your soul. Without them you have nothing. They give you meaning and purpose. They give substance to you, as much as you give substance to them. Because of them you persevere, because of them you overcome, because of them you are more then you could have ever hoped to be, do not forsake them nor forget them. They are the embodiment of all that you love, and fear, and yearn for. With all their faults and failures they are the best of you, and the least of you. You are reflections of each other. Always, and in all things, cherish them. Solipsism is not a reason to love them less, it is a reason to love them more.

To be a Solipsist is to accept that there are things that you can never know. As steadfastly as you may choose to believe them, you can never truly know. But Solipsism is also the realization of just what a magnificent and miraculous gift life is. For all its trials and tribulations, life is a miraculous thing, whether by the hand of God, the fortuitous result of chance, or the product of a solitary mind, life is a miraculous thing. No matter the cost or circumstance, cherish it.

Everything you have written is overwhelming evidence that solipsism is not only absurd but also self-destructive and soul-destroying!

 

[Partinobodycula]

How do you know that? Have you verified it through any formal proof? If so, I implore you to share (that is, assuming feasibility).

Also, define this “self” of which you speak. Do you know its limits? Tell us roughly what they are or might be – unless you hold that there may not actually be any at all.

However, if there are no limits to your self, then you are undefined and undefinable, and thus solipsism turns out to itself be undefined and undefinable. And in that case none of us can have any definite idea of what we’re even attempting to discuss. On the other hand, if there are limits – if your self has boundaries, some clear-cut, uncrossable border – then I want to know whom/what established such innate terms, such inherent essence.

Is it possible or even coherent to claim that a self ever defines/limits itself? The proposition apparently affirms the existence of a self-created being, i.e., a creature which has determined its very own nature; but such a notion is patently ridiculous. To self-create would simply be to pre-exist one’s own existence, to be prior to oneself, to act upon a subject before there’s any subject upon which to act, or to even do the acting.

In Spiration, first let me say, excellent post, and I do honestly mean that, this isn’t just false humility. I enjoy well thought out and presented arguments, and yours definitely was. Even your quotes from Chesterton were quite insightful.

I will have to consider your questions for a bit. I do not like to speak without thinking. (Although I tend to do it quite often anyway)

As for proving that I am self-aware, that I’m afraid is impossible for me to do in a manner satisfactory to anyone other than myself. No more than you can prove to me that you exist, I cannot prove to you that I exist. But that of course is the fundamental basis of solipsism.

But I can attempt to define my limitations, for there definitely are some, and they do raise many rather intriguing questions, some of which you have already pointed out.

There does appear to be very definite limits to my conscious control of the “world” around me. But that does not preclude the possibility that there is a subconscious element to my being of which I am unaware, which is itself in control. It also doesn’t preclude the possibility of an outside element, a God if you will, who is in fact in control of my reality. The problem is, that if there is such a “God”, he can never prove his existence to me, just as I cannot prove my existence to you.

The amazing thing to me is, that if there is a God, he must be a solipsist. All he can know is what it says in essence in Genesis, “I am”. (Or, “I am that I am” or many such verses in he bible where God refers to Himself in such a manner) God may be well aware that all of creation exists only in His mind. Or if He is not well aware of this, then He has no way of proving otherwise. Which would make Him a solipsist.

I should stop here because I have not presented this last point well at all, and you will no doubt object to it. Which is fine. I need time to better refine the thought, and you no doubt will wish to respond.

I’m sorry that this post has done nothing to answer your questions, or clear anything up. Give me time. I will attempt to formulate a better response.

 

[Partinobodycula]

Everything you have written is overwhelming evidence that solipsism is not only absurd but also self-destructive and soul-destroying!

You may of course be correct. But what I wrote was as honest as I can be about my beliefs, and my outlook on life. For me, solipsism makes life a very precious thing.

A person can be a solipsist and a Catholic. All a solipsist is saying is that they have no way of knowing if all of reality exists only in their minds, or not. No one does, and this is the absolute honest truth, they don’t have any way of knowing. But that does not mean that they cannot have faith in God. There may very well be a God. My being correct, doesn’t mean that you are in any way wrong.

I am not attacking or ridiculing your faith or beliefs, or anyone else’s. I have no way of knowing anything beyond the simple fact that “I am”.

But knowing that all of this may be only an illusion makes it ever so precious, for the alternative is to be alone.

If saying that I don’t know, is absurd, then I suppose that my understanding is indeed absurd.

 

[tonyrey]

You may of course be correct. But what I wrote was as honest as I can be about my beliefs, and my outlook on life. For me, solipsism makes life a very precious thing.

I haven’t doubted your sincerity or honesty for one moment. I believe our knowledge of our mind is indeed very precious.

A person can be a solipsist and a Catholic. All a solipsist is saying is that they have no way of **knowing **if all of reality exists only in their minds, or not. No one does, and this is the absolute honest truth, they don’t have any way of knowing. But that does not mean that they cannot have faith in God. There may very well be a God. My being correct, doesn’t mean that you are in any way wrong.

“knowing” is the key word!

I am not attacking or ridiculing your faith or beliefs, or anyone else’s. I have no way of knowing anything beyond the simple fact that “I am”.

You are right!

But knowing that all of this may be only an illusion makes it ever so precious, for the alternative is to be alone.

Solipsism makes you **feel **alone but in reality you are united to others by… love.

If saying that I don’t know, is absurd, then I suppose that my understanding is indeed absurd.

It isn’t - but to believe solipsism with all your heart, mind and soul is - to quote Bishop Butler - to overlook the fact that probability is the very guide of life. For one thing you didn’t create yourself nor can you remember having lived forever! So at the very least it is far more reasonable to believe you owe your existence to the Creator revealed to us by Jesus… rather than existing in “spendid isolation”.

On that joyful note I wish you and yours a very happy and peaceful Christmas.

One for all and all for one! :grouphug: Farewell solipsism forever…

 

[tdgesq]

Well, “likely” is a subjective term, but I will attempt, if not to meet this standard, then to at least raise some interesting arguments.

I mean: can you demonstrate it is more likely than not that solipsism is true? Does the preponderance of the evidence support solipsism?

The first [Argument] is, just how real is “reality”?

Men have been trying to figure out what “matter” really is for thousands of years. Breaking things down into smaller and smaller bits, in an attempt to discover just what it is that all of this “stuff” is made of. Molecules, atoms, particles, fermions, bosons, strings. It seems that the closer and closer we look, the less and less “stuff” there really is.
. . .
But this is only when we’re observing them. Stop observing them and they could be anywhere. Not just anywhere, they could be everywhere, at the same time. That seems a little bit spooky. So long as I’m watching it, it’s sorta there. But the instant that I turn my back, it could be everywhere. Reality is a very ethereal place. If this isn’t an illusion it sure acts like one.

I’m seriously thinking about starting my own thread re: the reality of quantum mechanics, as I have seen this same type of argument repeatedly here. The basic error is this: that the theories and conclusions of QM are known with more certainty than all other empirical observations and, as such, are to be given ontological priority. Yet this is clearly not correct.

Let’s use the double slit experiment (that is what you are describing) as an example. We project quantum particles (say, electrons) through two slits of a metal plate. The particles appear to strike the screen behind the plate in pattern that exhibits characteristics of a waveform, which can be described mathematically. So, the conclusion is that these electrons “travel” in the form of a wave. But wait: what is an electron?

We can’t see electrons, not even with the aid of an electron microscope. We can know things about electrons from the effects we observe, some of them to a great degree of accuracy. We know they have a certain atomic mass, an electric charge, and spin. Of course these attributes can only be described formally with mathematics, yet mathematics can only give us information about extension and quantity - not qualities. We can’t actually observe a quantum particle spin like we can a toy top. Spin is actually a mathematical description of a particle’s angular momentum. Neither can we observe quantum particles traveling as a wave like we observe a wave of water, for example. These terms are taken from our ontological experiences of things we can directly observe, and we do not know whether they even approximate what is actually happening at a quantum level.

Furthermore, we certainly assume that the testing equipment used for the double slit experiment is real and not an illusion. In fact, we know far more about the testing equipment than we do about actual behavior of the electrons in the experiment. Finally, as you noted, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle limits what we can know about the momentum and position of a particle simultaneously. This is true for the double slit experiment as well.

So, when we add an observation/measuring device to the experiment (yet another variable, as we don’t know how precisely that may affect these particles) and it appears that the electrons are now traveling as particles (not waves), what are we to conclude? Well, I can tell you what we shouldn’t conclude. We shouldn’t make an ontological leap that human observation of events determines the reality of those events; particularly when our empirical observations of nearly everything else leads to the opposite conclusion. However, even if we were to make that logical leap, it still wouldn’t support solipsism. Under the most extreme interpretation of double slit all that can be concluded is that an observer ontologically changes how quantum particles behave - not that the observer’s consciousness is the only thing that exists.

If “materialists” are correct then we should be able to prove it. We should be able to find a TOE, a theory of everything. Unfortunately, if the Soloipsist is correct, they will never be able to prove it. There will always be another mystery to explore, another layer to peel back, another question to answer

Not all of us are materialists, but assuming you were arguing with one, that there is not yet a theory of everything does not mean there will never be one. Even so, it’s not to say there are many things we do know about the universe. It is a strange position to take that the more we “know” about the universe the more we learn that it is an illusion. On the other hand, isn’t it equally as likely that the solipsist may one day “wake up” and realize that he is the only mind in existence? I submit that none of these speculations make solipsism any more likely than realism, so Argument #1 should be rejected.

 

[tdgesq]

[continued]

And this leads to argument number two. The question of inflicted suffering.

If I were creating reality I would want a reality with obstacles to be overcome, struggles to be endured, wrongs to be righted, characters to be tested, and endless mysteries to be explored. I would want an adventure. I would want a reality much like this one.

Then why is it that the adventure we most commonly experience is sitting home on the weekend with a six pack of beer watching Netflix? I can’t know your experiences, but I somehow doubt you are Ethan Hunt in Mission Impossible, as opposed to watching it on a television. But there is a more fundamental problem here. It is fine that you enjoy the world the way that it is, but that hardly entails you created that world, particularly since you can’t control it and can’t explain how you created it. You don’t even know that you had anything to do with its creation.

The answer of course is no. I couldn’t do such a thing. I accept these trials of my own free will, but I will not inflict them on others. Either I am inflicting this suffering on us all, or some God is choosing to inflict this suffering, or the only one really enduring this, is me, and that I can accept.

My initial reaction is that this is a false dichotomy. It could be someone other than you or God who is inflicting the suffering. In fact, this is what the theistic free will defense and morally sufficient justification proposes. If there are other minds like yours then they can also inflict suffering. In any case, escaping the problem of evil by accepting solipsism only works if solipsism is true. But none of this makes it more likely true than not. Argument #2 is unavailing.

Partinobodycula, if these are the arguments that have convinced you to accept solipsism then at least consider my response. You seem reasonable; reasonable enough to accept that I am not an illusion created by your own consciousness to challenge you.

 

[Partinobodycula]

The basic error is this: that the theories and conclusions of QM are known with more certainty than all other empirical observations and, as such, are to be given ontological priority. Yet this is clearly not correct.

I’m sorry, by invoking QM I was not attempting to show that the mystical properties of QM in any way prove solipsism. I was simply pointing out that the closer we look at the fundamental building blocks of the universe the less actual “stuff” there appears to be. A solipsist would argue that there is no actual “stuff” there at all, that it is all simply an illusion. It seems that the deeper we delve into the structure of matter, the more it appears that the solipsist might just be right. There is very little, if any, “stuff” there at all. But you have to look at the universe for yourself, and decide whether you believe it is real or an illusion. In any case, life is a patient teacher.

Not all of us are materialists, but assuming you were arguing with one, that there is not yet a theory of everything does not mean there will never be one.

As a solipsist I would argue that it will never actually be possible to prove that reality is only an illusion. If reality is an illusion created by one’s own mind, then the mind will always be able to create another layer to the illusion, and another, and another. The illusion will never end.

But if reality isn’t an illusion then it should be possible to find the ultimate building block of the universe. Thus it is impossible to prove that solipsism is correct, but it should be possible to prove that it is wrong. So far, science has been unable to prove it wrong. I patiently await a theory of everything. When it comes you may say I told you so.

 

[Partinobodycula]

It is fine that you enjoy the world the way that it is, but that hardly entails you created that world, particularly since you can’t control it and can’t explain how you created it. You don’t even know that you had anything to do with its creation.

You are correct, I can’t control reality, I can’t explain how, or even if I created it, but if I did know these things, that would pretty much negate any reason for creating the illusion in the first place. It is also possible that I did not consciously create reality. The only thing that I know with absolute certainty is, that I can never know if anything exists outside of my own mind. This is an irrefutable truth. If there is a God, you can never be absolutely certain that He exists. Unless of course, he is you.

It could be someone other than you or God who is inflicting the suffering. In fact, this is what the theistic free will defense and morally sufficient justification proposes. If there are other minds like yours then they can also inflict suffering.

If you believe that the universe was created by a benevolent, loving God, then you must explain how such a God could justify inflicting so much pain and suffering on so many. I realize that there are a great number of people who have no problem doing this. There are a lot of things that people justify in God’s name.

If you believe that the universe is merely the result of the laws of physics, then the pain and suffering is pretty much just one of the unpleasant side effects of life, and we are all responsible for the undue pain we cause. But such pain is neither just nor unjust, it’s just life.

If you’re a solipsist, then the only one suffering is you, and only you can decide if it’s worth it.

For me, the pain and suffering of my life are definitely worth it. In fact, I no longer consider it suffering at all. Every moment of every day is a gift. My greatest achievements have come through those things which have required the greatest perseverance.

It reminds me of the poem by Robert Browning Hamilton,

I walked a mile with Pleasure;
She chatted all the way;
But left me none the wiser
For all she had to say.

I walked a mile with Sorrow,
And ne’er a word said she;
But, oh! The things I learned from her,
When sorrow walked with me.

 

[Partinobodycula]

How do you know that? Have you verified it through any formal proof? If so, I implore you to share (that is, assuming feasibility).

Also, define this “self” of which you speak. Do you know its limits? Tell us roughly what they are or might be – unless you hold that there may not actually be any at all.

However, if there are no limits to your self, then you are undefined and undefinable, and thus solipsism turns out to itself be undefined and undefinable. And in that case none of us can have any definite idea of what we’re even attempting to discuss. On the other hand, if there are limits – if your self has boundaries, some clear-cut, uncrossable border – then I want to know whom/what established such innate terms, such inherent essence.

Is it possible or even coherent to claim that a self ever defines/limits itself? The proposition apparently affirms the existence of a self-created being, i.e., a creature which has determined its very own nature; but such a notion is patently ridiculous. To self-create would simply be to pre-exist one’s own existence, to be prior to oneself, to act upon a subject before there’s any subject upon which to act, or to even do the acting.

It’s strange somehow, but there are times when I sit here and the words just won’t come, until all that I want to do is say I’m sorry. I wish that I could explain what I see and what I feel but I can’t, I’m not smart enough, or eloquent enough, or open enough. And so I just sit here. Until I come to the realization that it doesn’t matter. I don’t have to convince you. I don’t have to change you. It is enough that you know that I care. You are wise enough to decide for yourself. Sometimes it is sufficient just to know that someone trusts you enough to let you do that.

If there is someone who needs changing it’s me. In this vast universe I am but an insignificant fool, but I can change the most important thing of all, I can change myself.

It is past 2 o’clock in the morning. It is Christmas, and it is enough for you to know that I love you.

Merry Christmas



P.S. I’ll try again after I’ve gotten some sleep

 

[Holly3278]

Solipsism is easily disproved.

Pick up a book on calculus. Do you understand it? No? Then it cannot be a product of your mind. It really exists outside of you.

I mean absolutely no offense by this but what does solipsism have to do with calculus? Here is the definition of solipsism:

sol·ip·sism/ˈsälipˌsizəm/
Noun:
The view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.

So yeah, I am just trying to figure out what a theory that the self is all that can be known to exist has to do with a math subject such as calculus. That said, I am horrible at math and there is no way I could ever do calculus. I can barely even do basic math I’m that bad so please don’t give me a calculus problem to figure out or something.

 

[tonyrey]

I mean absolutely no offense by this but what does solipsism have to do with calculus? Here is the definition of solipsism:

sol·ip·sism/ˈsälipˌsizəm/
Noun:
The view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.

So yeah, I am just trying to figure out what a theory that the self is all that can be known to exist has to do with a math subject such as calculus. That said, I am horrible at math and there is no way I could ever do calculus. I can barely even do basic math I’m that bad so please don’t give me a calculus problem to figure out or something.

It could be all in the mind of the solipsist -even though he may not understand it!

 

[Partinobodycula]

People might understandably presume that as a solipsist I would look upon religious traditions like Hanukah and Christmas with contempt and disdain. You might think that I would consider any belief in a Supreme being to be simpleminded and antiquated. But that is not by any means the case. Indeed I can respect and appreciate the appeal, and even the logic of a creator. But as a solipsist I must accept the inescapable truth that all that I can know with absolute assurance, is that I am. If there is indeed a supreme being, then I can never know Him, except by faith. As fervently as I may wish to, I can never truly know Him. That is a somber realization. One which most people choose to avoid. A solipsist is someone who chooses to face and accept a truth which others ridicule, simply because it is the truth.

So what does God and Christmas mean to me?

Years ago I had a practice of giving away money. But I was of the opinion that it was best to give money away anonymously. I thought that if one received acclamation for their acts of charity, then they had already received their reward. So I preferred to give in secret. I would go to a thrift store in a rundown part of town and put money in the pockets of some childrens’ clothes on the rack. My thought was that anyone shopping for children in that store, in that part of town, needed the money more than I did. I would always leave before anyone came, never waiting to see who it was that found the money. Putting the outcome in the hands of God or fate, to decide where it was needed the most.

I never knew where it went, and they never knew where it came from. They never knew who to give thanks to, and I never knew how much good the gift had done. In a way that’s how I view my relationship with God. If He exists, I can never know Him. I can pray. I can have faith. I can have traditon. I can have communion, but I can never really know Him. He may indeed have given me the gift of life, but I can never know if He is really there, and the thing is, He gave the gift knowing this. If He is there, and He is the creator of my world, then He is as I was in that thrift store, He is giving, knowing that the receiver of the gift will never know Him. That is a God I can respect. That is a God I can admire. That is a God after my own heart. I still do not know if He exists, but I can, even in my ignorance, thank Him.

So you see, a solipsist can care. We need not be indifferent, or egotistical. The most that we can hope to be, is honest, and so that is what I try to be.

Thank you all, and Merry Christmas.

 

[tonyrey]

People might understandably presume that as a solipsist I would look upon religious traditions like Hanukah and Christmas with contempt and disdain. You might think that I would consider any belief in a Supreme being to be simpleminded and antiquated. But that is not by any means the case. Indeed I can respect and appreciate the appeal, and even the logic of a creator. But as a solipsist I must accept the inescapable truth that all that I can know with absolute assurance, is that I am. If there is indeed a supreme being, then I can never know Him, except by faith. As fervently as I may wish to, I can never truly know Him. That is a somber realization. One which most people choose to avoid. A solipsist is someone who chooses to face and accept a truth which others ridicule, simply because it is the truth.

So what does God and Christmas mean to me?

Years ago I had a practice of giving away money. But I was of the opinion that it was best to give money away anonymously. I thought that if one received acclamation for their acts of charity, then they had already received their reward. So I preferred to give in secret. I would go to a thrift store in a rundown part of town and put money in the pockets of some childrens’ clothes on the rack. My thought was that anyone shopping for children in that store, in that part of town, needed the money more than I did. I would always leave before anyone came, never waiting to see who it was that found the money. Putting the outcome in the hands of God or fate, to decide where it was needed the most.

I never knew where it went, and they never knew where it came from. They never knew who to give thanks to, and I never knew how much good the gift had done. In a way that’s how I view my relationship with God. If He exists, I can never know Him. I can pray. I can have faith. I can have traditon. I can have communion, but I can never really know Him. He may indeed have given me the gift of life, but I can never know if He is really there, and the thing is, He gave the gift knowing this. If He is there, and He is the creator of my world, then He is as I was in that thrift store, He is giving, knowing that the receiver of the gift will never know Him. That is a God I can respect. That is a God I can admire. That is a God after my own heart. I still do not know if He exists, but I can, even in my ignorance, thank Him.

So you see, a solipsist can care. We need not be indifferent, or egotistical. The most that we can hope to be, is honest, and so that is what I try to be.

Thank you all, and Merry Christmas.

We may be figments of your imagination but we still care for you and hope you are not a figment of our individual imaginations. Of course the simplest, most adequate and most likely explanation is that we are all figments of God’s imagination - which is infinitely more creative, powerful and loving than ours can ever be. Who would ever have guessed He would come to us as a helpless, defenceless and vulnerable child?

 

[katesmom]

Can anyone offer suggestions for how one ever overcome solipsism. As I mentioned in this post and a few of my own posts I have struggled with this. I’ve certainly accepted it as a possibility because I seem to lack the thinking skills to know with 100% certainty that solipsism is false? For Those of you who have never been bothered by this ~ what advice can you offer? Why doesnt it bother you? I’m just curious so I can overcome this fear?

 

[Partinobodycula]

Can anyone offer suggestions for how one ever overcome solipsism. As I mentioned in this post and a few of my own posts I have struggled with this. I’ve certainly accepted it as a possibility because I seem to lack the thinking skills to know with 100% certainty that solipsism is false? For Those of you who have never been bothered by this ~ what advice can you offer? Why doesnt it bother you? I’m just curious so I can overcome this fear?

Kate, I don’t know if I can be of any help, in fact, many here would probably claim that I am the problem, and they may be right. I’m not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, I’m just a simpleminded person who does the best that he can to understand and deal with a complicated world. I’m truly sorry that solipsism causes you such fear. But as a solipsist I would say that that is why we’re here. We’re all here so that you won’t be alone, or afraid, or lost.

Hug your children, smell a flower, go to church, pray, and above all have faith, through faith all things are possible. Not just some things, but all things. Accept that we care for you, and try, please try, to care for us. If you have faith, and if you care, you are never alone.

And please undestand that you may need help that none of us here can give. You may need a professional who has more to give than mere words. As heartfelt and sincere as words can be, sometimes they alone are not enough. I say this only because I care, and I want that no one should suffer.

I’m sure that I speak for everyone here when I say that I will pray for you.

:grouphug: :hug3:

 

[tonyrey]

Can anyone offer suggestions for how one ever overcome solipsism. As I mentioned in this post and a few of my own posts I have struggled with this. I’ve certainly accepted it as a possibility because I seem to lack the thinking skills to know with 100% certainty that solipsism is false? For Those of you who have never been bothered by this ~ what advice can you offer? Why doesnt it bother you? I’m just curious so I can overcome this fear?

1. Not surprisingly, logical or mathematical certainty is only possible in the realm of logic and mathematics.
2. All scientific propositions are provisional yet the success of science is a sufficient guarantee of practical certainty.
3. The proposition that persons exist is practically certain because science wouldn’t exist without persons!
4. Jesus said “By their fruits you shall know them…”
5. The onus is on the solipsist to prove that he or she is the only person that exists because all the evidence is to the contrary.
6. The very fact that you are communicating and asking for suggestions implies that you are far more certain that other persons exist rather that that they are illusions.
7. Solipsism virtually implies that the solipsist is God because no one else is thought to be necessary but himself or herself.
8. It is therefore a form of unwitting idolatry!
9. The best cure for solipsism is love because it takes us out of ourselves and enables us to identify with others.
10. That is why sanity and happiness are found only in the first two Commandments…

 

[katesmom]

Thank you for responding Partinobodycula

When I initially learned of solipsism I was reading Descartes. I’m in my mid 30s & never heard of solipsism, I never considered it, in fact I didn’t even read philosophy. So my initial reaction was one of fear, anxiety!!

I wont go into too much detail but after learning about solipsism, I was prescribed medication (antidepressants and anti anxiety) because I couldn’t let the fear go. Like I said before I’m better on medications but still struggle with solipsism & wish very much that I didn’t react to it in such a fearful way.

To escape solipsism, I considered Descartes Third Meditation for the existence of God .
Even thought I believe in God & trust he would not deceive us - I now am struggling with my faith/trust as well!

 

[katesmom]

1. Not surprisingly, logical or mathematical certainty is only possible in the realm of logic and mathematics.
2. All scientific propositions are provisional yet the success of science is a sufficient guarantee of practical certainty.
3. The proposition that persons exist is practically certain because science wouldn’t exist without persons!
4. Jesus said “By their fruits you shall know them…”
5. The onus is on the solipsist to prove that he or she is the only person that exists because all the evidence is to the contrary.
6. The very fact that you are communicating and asking for suggestions implies that you are far more certain that other persons exist rather that that they are illusions.
7. Solipsism virtually implies that the solipsist is God because no one else is thought to be necessary but himself or herself.
8. It is therefore a form of unwitting idolatry!
9. The best cure for solipsism is love because it takes us out of ourselves and enables us to identify with others.
10. That is why sanity and happiness are found only in the first two Commandments…

Thank you Tonyrey for replying!! I agree with all your points listed above.
I think the most important thing for me at this point is to move past the fear!!