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mackbrislawn
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So, in either case, it seems that absence of good works = absence of justification.
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Some Catholics accept justification(initial ) by faith alone per
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It can, certainly, because an absence of works means a dead faith.So, in either case, it seems that absence of good works = absence of justification.
It is also true the all of us, regardless of how strong a faith we have, neglect to do what we are called to do. And for that there is confession.
L
LatinRight
Guest
God bless Mackbrislawn,So, in either case, it seems that absence of good works = absence of justification.
I agree, it seems that absence of good works = absence of justification.
Fortunately (it seems ONLY) **good works are neither condition of
justification nor a condition for us/elect to enter heaven.**
A dead faith is an intellectual faith (merely be a mental assent to a fact
without doing anything about it) [can do nothing (John 15:5; 1 Cor.2:14;
etc.)] – It is not a God’s gift of formed faith.
God’s gift of faith given to His children/elect is FORMED FAITH, **always alive and always
saves,** even if some of the recipients [because deceived (Matt.24:24)] fail to do good works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly
encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed
faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasis mine.
Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH:
**a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)
b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)
c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**
**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**
Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has
been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it
were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that
one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been
MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful
figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which
contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.
(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,
follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the
predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be
UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to
CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of
certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.
End quote Emphasize added.
**In fact, good works are condition to receive God’s rewards in heaven. **
Our salvation is God’s free gift received by God’s gift of faith, this is nothing to do with our good works. – Eph.2:8-9.
We have been created in Christ Jesus for good works. – Eph.2:10.
Every Christian/elect will do good works in heaven, unfortunately many Christians/elect
[because they deceived (works salvation, etc.)] fail to do good works here on earth.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
**Imprimatur: ** Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”
End quote. Emphasize mine.
**JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church **
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts
as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in
Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is **
NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.**
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For
without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a
human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying
grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s
unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love -
FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. Emphasise mine.
Continue
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
**Imprimatur: ** Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”
End quote. Emphasize mine.
**JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church **
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts
as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in
Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is **
NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.**
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For
without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a
human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying
grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s
unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love -
FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. Emphasise mine.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING
Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its
object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL
GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the
Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582). – Please see also John 15:5, etc.
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something **NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW**, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings
out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY
KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
**In the light of the above teachings, the way I do supernatural work: **
God gives me reward in heaven** if my work is up to the standard of supernatural merit.**
But if I do my work to get my salvation or to keep my salvation **I do my work for my
own interest and that work is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God. **– 1 Cor.3:12-15.
work or not to work without the fear of hell.** – **This is a condition to do supernatural merit. **
There are other conditions as well. – It is not so simple to do supernatural merit. The standard is VERY HIGH.
want to do it out of SHEER for the Glory of God and for the love of others.
If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.
If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.
We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,
WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we
MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**
MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.
God bless
LatinRight
Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its
object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL
GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the
Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582). – Please see also John 15:5, etc.
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something **NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW**, but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings
out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY
KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
**In the light of the above teachings, the way I do supernatural work: **
- I always keep in mind Eph.2:10.
- I believe Rom.4:5-6; Eph.2:8-9; Rom.3:24; Rom.5:18; Rom.11:6; that I don’t have to
God gives me reward in heaven** if my work is up to the standard of supernatural merit.**
But if I do my work to get my salvation or to keep my salvation **I do my work for my
own interest and that work is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God. **– 1 Cor.3:12-15.
- I believe, according to Rom.4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:12-15 **even if I do nothing or all my work
work or not to work without the fear of hell.** – **This is a condition to do supernatural merit. **
There are other conditions as well. – It is not so simple to do supernatural merit. The standard is VERY HIGH.
- I work as much as I possibly can, FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or
want to do it out of SHEER for the Glory of God and for the love of others.
If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.
If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.
We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,
WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we
MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**
MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.
God bless
LatinRight
B
Bookcat
Guest
Not to get “all in” here on this thread -for I have not read (nor the time to do so) all the post here back and forth. Nor have I read necessarily the various other works mentioned. Nor do I have an exhaustive knowledge of “the reformed view”.So it seems to me that Benedict XVI view is even more nuanced toward the Reformed view than what you and Dave are saying.
Let me note just a few things.
- Often times Catholics and Protestants can “talk” past each other on this subject and miss where they agree.
- Much work has been done over the decades by Catholic and Protestant Scholars in understanding each other and showing where there is yes agreement (or at times not). This has been a very long process and not something that can really be repeated in a limited forum…(where often times people try to reinvent the wheel…)
- Pope Benedict is Teaching there in a Weds’ Audience as Pope. Teaching the Catholic Faith. Not an exhaustive treatment of course but Teaching it - especially in terms there of the meaning of the Sacred Scriptures written by Saint Paul.
- That text by him ought to be read and re-read a number of times…for it is quite rich. Often re-readings will answer questions that come to mind.
- Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
The story of the woman who was bleeding comes to mind. Doctors and human effort had not healed her, but she had faith in Jesus, “If I can only touch the tassel on his cloak, I’ll be healed.” So she elbowed her way through the crowd, got up the nerve to touch the tassel on his cloak, power flowed from Jesus, and she was healed. Jesus said to her, “Your faith has saved you.”
Now, from her point of view, touching Jesus’ cloak healed her, although scripture says it was the power of Jesus, and Jesus himself said it was her faith. Which was it?
Now, from her point of view, touching Jesus’ cloak healed her, although scripture says it was the power of Jesus, and Jesus himself said it was her faith. Which was it?
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
Yes, that maybe true. But believing works is a cause of justification vs an evidence of justification are to remarkably different things.So, in either case, it seems that absence of good works = absence of justification.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Suppose an outside observer observes two people going around doing good works. They look the same to the observer. However, the mind of one is thinking, “I am doing good works because I am justified,” and the mind of the other is thinking, “I am doing good works to cause me to be justified.” But they look the same to the outside observer! He can’t tell the difference!Yes, that maybe true. But believing works is a cause of justification vs an evidence of justification are to remarkably different things.
Hmm…maybe there is no difference.
In either case, good works are part of justification.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
All of the above was true. What you have to do is distinguish between the type of causes. In theology we talk about instrumental, efficient, material, and final causes. So in this case the touching with faith would be the instrumental cause, the material cause would be the sacrifice of Christ, the efficient cause would be the mercy of God, and final cause would be God’s glory.The story of the woman who was bleeding comes to mind. Doctors and human effort had not healed her, but she had faith in Jesus, “If I can only touch the tassel on his cloak, I’ll be healed.” So she elbowed her way through the crowd, got up the nerve to touch the tassel on his cloak, power flowed from Jesus, and she was healed. Jesus said to her, “Your faith has saved you.”
Now, from her point of view, touching Jesus’ cloak healed her, although scripture says it was the power of Jesus, and Jesus himself said it was her faith. Which was it?
But if you think about it this is true in everyday life. If you had to be rush to the hospital because of a sudden illness and you were eventually saved by the doctors. What is the cause of your being saved? The person driving the car that rush you to the hospital? The doctor that performed the diagnosis? The medicine that cured the illness? The person that discovered the medicine? So each of those were a cause in your being saved.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
On the contrary there is a world of difference, because God judges by the intent and desires of the heart. We can’t always tell, but of course God is the one that justifies, not our fellow humans. This is why Jesus could say I never knew you to some that did good works and the Apostle Paul could say his adherence to the law was worthless.Suppose an outside observer observes two people going around doing good works. They look the same to the observer. However, the mind of one is thinking, “I am doing good works because I am justified,” and the mind of the other is thinking, “I am doing good works to cause me to be justified.” But they look the same to the outside observer! He can’t tell the difference!
Hmm…maybe there is no difference.
In either case, good works are part of justification.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Exactly. This explanation clarifies a lot of what our argumentation is about, or caused by–the use of language and manner of speaking, and the particular perspective or cause one is assumed to be looking at. We see that a lot of what we are arguing about is empty, not to the point.All of the above was true. What you have to do is distinguish between the type of causes. In theology we talk about instrumental, efficient, material, and final causes. So in this case the touching with faith would be the instrumental cause, the material cause would be the sacrifice of Christ, the efficient cause would be the mercy of God, and final cause would be God’s glory.
But if you think about it this is true in everyday life. If you had to be rush to the hospital because of a sudden illness and you were eventually saved by the doctors. What is the cause of your being saved? The person driving the car that rush you to the hospital? The doctor that performed the diagnosis? The medicine that cured the illness? The person that discovered the medicine? So each of those were a cause in your being saved.
The hospital and doctor example is good. What if one doesn’t have faith in doctors? Well, he won’t go to the doctor. But if one does have faith in doctors, he’ll go to the doctor and do what the doctor says in order to be healed. Likewise, if one doesn’t have faith in Jesus, he’ll not go to Jesus. But if he does have faith in Jesus, he’ll go to Jesus and do what Jesus says in order to be saved.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
True. Of course, it seems that the intent and desires of the heart are similar in either case. And since God justifies, we should not do good works to show off our justification to others (including God) (and including ourselves). We should not boast of it, as Paul warns against.On the contrary there is a world of difference, because God judges by the intent and desires of the heart. We can’t always tell, but of course God is the one that justifies, not our fellow humans. This is why Jesus could say I never knew you to some that did good works and the Apostle Paul could say his adherence to the law was worthless.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
No, the intent and desires of the heart are not the same for the justified and unjustified. The unjustified cannot please God with their actions and instead seek to please the world, the flesh, and the devil.True. Of course, it seems that the intent and desires of the heart are similar in either case. And since God justifies, we should not do good works to show off our justification to others (including God) (and including ourselves). We should not boast of it, as Paul warns against.
D
Duane1966
Guest
Really? So if an atheist saves a Christian from drowning, God would condemn the action?No, the intent and desires of the heart are not the same for the justified and unjustified. The unjustified cannot please God with their actions and instead seek to please the world, the flesh, and the devil.
D
Duane1966
Guest
From this website, which was the forerunner of calledtocommunion.com. principiumunitatis.blogspot.com/search/label/Justification?updated-max=2009-02-02T05:02:00-06:00&max-results=20&start=10&by-date=false
This is consistent with Trent, and the Early Church Fathers.Are we initially justified by faith alone? If we are speaking about a faith that is sacramental and ecclesial in nature, and as such includes within itself works of all sort, i.e. believing the gospel, repenting, obeying the Commandments and precepts of the Church in the Catechumenate period, willing to be baptized, and in fact receiving baptism, then the answer is yes. Such a conception of faith includes within itself the sacrament of baptism by which we are regenerated and given the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. So in that broad sense of the term ‘faith’, we could be said to be initially justified by “faith alone”. But we are not initially justified by “faith alone” if by ‘faith’ is meant something entirely individual, private and separate from the sacrament of baptism (and the preparation necessary for its reception) and from incorporation into the life of the Church, a life which includes the other sacraments and prayer and obeying the Commandments. So the debate hinges in part on our conception of ‘faith’, whether it is individualistic, non-sacramental, and private, or ecclesial, sacramental, and corporate. The more we recognize the connection between baptism and justification, the closer we will be to the Catholic Church’s doctrine on the relation of faith and our initial justification.
P
pablope
Guest
You can read William Marshner’s thoughts on this issue in this journal…chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdfWell
I will have to check my copy of the debate where Patrick Madrid, Robert Sungenis, and William Marshner presented the Catholic position to see if they affirmed it. I don’t think they did, but it has been a while since I listened to it.
And you will find the answer to your question:
To be honest I did not find any disagreement with Pope Benedict’s articles, but if I start a discussion on this site the disagreements start immediately. So that is why I was curious as to where do you guys see the differences.
From the Article:
Catholic and Protestant views on the respective roles of grace, faith and works
cannot be compared meaningfully, unless one specifies what stage of the justificational
process one is talking about. In the preparatory stage, for instance, in which prevenient graces first stir a person towards an interest in religious truth, towards repentance,
and towards faith, Catholics, Lutherans and Calvinists are at one in saying “sola
gratia.”
2
A second stage is the very transition from death to life, which is the first stage of justification proper. Here the parties are at one in saying “sola fide,” though
they seem to mean different things byit. Protestants tend to mean that, at thisstage, by the grace of God, man’s act of faith is the sole act required of him; Catholics mean that faith is the beginning,foundation and root of all justification, since only faith makes possible the acts of hope and charity (i.e. love-for-God) which are also required.
3
However, since most Protestants have a broad notion of the act of faith, whereby it includes elements of hope and love, it is often hard to tell how far the difference on this point is real and how far it is a matter of words. Finally, however, there comes a third
stage, that of actual Christian life, with its problems of growth and perseverance. The
man justified by faith is called to “walk” with God, to progress in holiness. It is at
this stage that the parties sharply diverge. Catholics affirm, and Protestants strenuously
deny, that the born-again Christian’sgood works merit for him the increase of grace and of the Christian virtues. As a result, Protestant piety has no obvious place for the self-sacrifices, fasts, and states of perfection which are prominent features of Catholic piety.
At each stage, neither the apparent agreements nor the apparent disagreements
can be understood without looking at certain metaphysical quarrels, the chief
of which is over the very existence of what Catholics call “grace.”
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
Well, there are two ways our actions are viewed. One way is horizontal, which is in regard to our fellow man. In that sense it is a pleasing and good thing and is a testimony of the law of God written on their heart, even though they deny there is a God. But there is another aspect to our actions, and that is the vertical or in relation to God. It is in this sense that the action is not pleasing to God and what the Scripture means when it says the following:Really? So if an atheist saves a Christian from drowning, God would condemn the action?
Hebrews 11: 6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Romans 8:6-7
6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
So if the atheist is not acting out of faith in God or is governed by the flesh instead of the Spirit do you think his action is pleasing to God?
B
Bookcat
Guest
No God does not “condemn the action”.Really? So if an atheist saves a Christian from drowning, God would condemn the action?
Note that the action “in itself” is pleasing - for all good is of God and by God…etcWell, there are two ways our actions are viewed. One way is horizontal, which is in regard to our fellow man. In that sense it is a pleasing and good thing and is a testimony of the law of God written on their heart, even though they deny there is a God. But there is another aspect to our actions, and that is the vertical or in relation to God. It is in this sense that the action is not pleasing to God and what the Scripture means when it says the following:
Hebrews 11: 6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Romans 8:6-7
6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
So if the atheist is not acting out of faith in God or is governed by the flesh instead of the Spirit do you think his action is pleasing to God?
And God too knows if the person is in some way “of good will” a well.
That does not mean the good action justifies the person or something.
One is does not enter into a state of justification by “doing good works” or by “doing works of the Law”.
But it is though possible that God in a way known to God (and not to us) can save even a person who has never heard the name of Jesus - but who responds to the graces in his life and seeks good etc.
It will not be his “good work” that saves him - but Christ (and via his death and resurrection). But that good work points to his seeking God…even if he does not know Revelation etc…
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Of course what you say is right, but it’s not to the point. We’re talking about the desires and intents of those who have faith, and who want to please God, are in the pew, but are nevertheless unjustified, unsaved, those who think they are saved, but not. They believe in God, and believe they have saving faith, but in fact do not. They do works to show to themselves they are among the saved (and perhaps to boast) because by definition the saved do good works.No, the intent and desires of the heart are not the same for the justified and unjustified. The unjustified cannot please God with their actions and instead seek to please the world, the flesh, and the devil.
It would seem that the desires and intents of these people do not please God either.
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