Some Christians Still Denounce Harry Potter as Dangerous

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Much of the anti-Potter posting here is really anti-literature in general.

I wonder how the anti-P posters treat something like the Odyssey. Would you read it to your kids? My father read it to me when I was very small (in English translation, obviously). He believed (and I agree) that it contains moral messages. (It is Odysseus’ failure to acknowledge the help of the gods, for example, that precipitates the story). To the anti-P posters, I would add that the story also contains pagan gods (!), monsters (!), witchcraft (!), divination (!), prophesy (!), war (!), adultery (!) and it ends with a massacre (killing!) - AND it clearly suggests that said massacre was actually a just act (yikes!). That last bit was very clear. When Odysseus locks the doors and slays all the “suitors”, there is a part of everyone that says “They got what they deserved!” - and anyone thinking that is not wrong.

Here are some morals that can be found:
  • Give thanks to the gods (and a Christian would say THE God) for their (His) help, without divine assistance, human struggle is vain
  • A husband’s proper place if by his wife’s side (not necessarily seeking fame and glory at work (or, Troy, if you will)
  • A father’s duty is raise his children (not leave Mentor to pick up the slack)
  • A child will react with anger and frustration absent a father’s instruction
  • Bad or weak leadership endangers everybody on the ship
  • Marriage is an exclusive relationship, it is a violation to stray outside a marriage and there are consequences to doing so
  • Marriage is an exclusive relationship, it is a violation for outsiders to try and come between a married couple and there are consequences for doing so
Part of the reason the pro-P side keeps harping on “Read the Books!” is that much of the anti-P criticism reveals a very superficial level of reading: “Oh look it deals with ‘witchcraft’, and witchcraft is bad!” But I don’t assume that children are moral idiots, and certainly not by the time they can begin to read the HP stories (unless you left your children while you went to fight at Troy). Catholic teaching tells us that through natural revelation man can know God (see Catechism 35, 50), and (Cat. 28) “men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth.” We are free to recognize what is true in a work like the Odyssey (e.g., “do NOT interfere in someone else’s marriage”) and what is not true (e.g., there is no such person as Poseidon the Sea-God). We are free to draw the moral lessons, such as they are, when we learn about other faith traditions (like we do on this site), and examine those places where truth and a particular tradition intersect and where they depart. This principle of discernment helps inform our interpretation of literature as Catholics. It is why we can and should read and study ancient works and works from other cultures, because we recognize the things that are common to all humanity. If we can do this with religious thought and writing, how much more so can we do this with works of imagination (where nothing is “real” in any concrete sense - there never was a real “Harry Potter”)? If you do read the books in this way, looking for what truth there is, acknowledging where the books might depart from it, I think you will find that, on balance, Harry falls closer to the side of the angels than otherwise. For instance:
  • Harry’s love interest (Ginny) is always portrayed as leading to marriage and children. The epilogue gives proof enough of this.
  • The beginning of resistance to evil is to recognize it and name it as such. Harry is the one character who will say the name “Voldemort”, for example.
  • Recognize that the “dark” label applied to the later books is not because of “dark” magic, but that because the theme has shifted to a meditation on death, as evidenced by the deaths of several major characters in the story, and of course the Tale of the Three Brothers pseudo-folktale that prompts the action of “Deathly Hallows”. The search for a meaningful life and a proper understanding of death is not the same thing as a “fascination” with death and dying.
By the way, my early immersion in the Odyssey, and a related interest in reading Greek mythology, did not push me into pantheism. Although when my brother and I saved our money and bought a canoe, it was named the “Sea Nymph”.
 
DawnInTexas said:
Is that particular Harry Potter book one of them?

Show us the proof.

If so, even Amazon.com (along with any other book seller) would be liable.

God Bless you.
+Jesus, I Trust In You!
Love, Dawn
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You guys are missing the point on this - the referenced book with all the “offensive” material is not a book by Rowling. It is not a “Harry Potter” book, as the disclaimer shows.
 
JHow said:
Much of the anti-Potter posting here is really anti-literature in general.

I wonder how the anti-P posters treat something like the Odyssey. Would you read it to your kids? My father read it to me when I was very small (in English translation, obviously). He believed (and I agree) that it contains moral messages. (It is Odysseus’ failure to acknowledge the help of the gods, for example, that precipitates the story). To the anti-P posters, I would add that the story also contains pagan gods (!), monsters (!), witchcraft (!), divination (!), prophesy (!), war (!), adultery (!) and it ends with a massacre (killing!) - AND it clearly suggests that said massacre was actually a just act (yikes!). That last bit was very clear. When Odysseus locks the doors and slays all the “suitors”, there is a part of everyone that says “They got what they deserved!” - and anyone thinking that is not wrong.

Here are some morals that can be found:
  • Give thanks to the gods (and a Christian would say THE God) for their (His) help, without divine assistance, human struggle is vain
  • A husband’s proper place if by his wife’s side (not necessarily seeking fame and glory at work (or, Troy, if you will)
  • A father’s duty is raise his children (not leave Mentor to pick up the slack)
  • A child will react with anger and frustration absent a father’s instruction
  • Bad or weak leadership endangers everybody on the ship
  • Marriage is an exclusive relationship, it is a violation to stray outside a marriage and there are consequences to doing so
  • Marriage is an exclusive relationship, it is a violation for outsiders to try and come between a married couple and there are consequences for doing so
Part of the reason the pro-P side keeps harping on “Read the Books!” is that much of the anti-P criticism reveals a very superficial level of reading: “Oh look it deals with ‘witchcraft’, and witchcraft is bad!” But I don’t assume that children are moral idiots, and certainly not by the time they can begin to read the HP stories (unless you left your children while you went to fight at Troy). Catholic teaching tells us that through natural revelation man can know God (see Catechism 35, 50), and (Cat. 28) “men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth.” We are free to recognize what is true in a work like the Odyssey (e.g., “do NOT interfere in someone else’s marriage”) and what is not true (e.g., there is no such person as Poseidon the Sea-God). We are free to draw the moral lessons, such as they are, when we learn about other faith traditions (like we do on this site), and examine those places where truth and a particular tradition intersect and where they depart. This principle of discernment helps inform our interpretation of literature as Catholics. It is why we can and should read and study ancient works and works from other cultures, because we recognize the things that are common to all humanity. If we can do this with religious thought and writing, how much more so can we do this with works of imagination (where nothing is “real” in any concrete sense - there never was a real “Harry Potter”)? If you do read the books in this way, looking for what truth there is, acknowledging where the books might depart from it, I think you will find that, on balance, Harry falls closer to the side of the angels than otherwise. For instance:
  • Harry’s love interest (Ginny) is always portrayed as leading to marriage and children. The epilogue gives proof enough of this.
  • The beginning of resistance to evil is to recognize it and name it as such. Harry is the one character who will say the name “Voldemort”, for example.
  • Recognize that the “dark” label applied to the later books is not because of “dark” magic, but that because the theme has shifted to a meditation on death, as evidenced by the deaths of several major characters in the story, and of course the Tale of the Three Brothers pseudo-folktale that prompts the action of “Deathly Hallows”. The search for a meaningful life and a proper understanding of death is not the same thing as a “fascination” with death and dying.
By the way, my early immersion in the Odyssey, and a related interest in reading Greek mythology, did not push me into pantheism. Although when my brother and I saved our money and bought a canoe, it was named the “Sea Nymph”.
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Hip, hip, hooray!
 
This is laughable!

I want to just ask the authors of that website one question:

Really?
 
JHow said:
You guys are missing the point on this - the referenced book with all the “offensive” material is not a book by Rowling. It is not a “Harry Potter” book, as the disclaimer shows.
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No doubt Rowling and Scholastic lawyers have taken a good look at it and concluded that the material is fair use.
 
Re: Lewis website

The best line in there is: "Thinking is not God’s way of salvation. "
 
PRmerger said:
So…is this really a criterion we’re using to determine what’s appropriate to wear to Mass?

Edit: if the argument to the above is that the criterion of “what would Our Lady wear” is applicable only to “young women”, I ask why? And, if young women do indeed tweeze their eyebrows and Mary wouldn’t, is that sinful?
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Young women struggle with modesty more so than older women.

I think this question is a great guideline for ladies.
Obviously when we think of our Blessed Mother we think of someone modest in dress, and naturally beautiful. But that doesn’t mean we take out the long garb and headdress! No, the key word when we think of her is: modesty. Modesty in manner and dress. Subtle beauty. Humble. Put that into clothing and you’ll be good to go! 👍

We are temples of the Holy Spirit, are we not? We can look our best and still remain honorable daughters of the King.
JHow said:
Much of the anti-Potter posting here is really anti-literature in general.
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Not so. 🙂
 
If someone told me one day I’d be a bad Catholic if I continued to read Mary Higgins Clark, I would get rather defensive, especially since, hey, I’ve been reading her fantastic suspense novels all these years! It took me a while, but I finally stepped into your shoes, pro-HPers! I think most of you are great Catholic/Christian people…and it all comes down to YOUR conscience. Not mine. Not anybody else’s.

I could go on “yadda” “yadda”… about how you should be reading something better, something holier, something with more depth. But you could say the same thing to me about the NY Times queen of suspense! No matter how many spiritual books I’ve read!

So, thank you for a pretty civil discussion (it could have been worse), and God bless. 🙂

I solemnly swear never to go on to another Harry Potter or Twilight thread again…😃
 
lil_flower_luv said:
If someone told me one day I’d be a bad Catholic if I continued to read Mary Higgins Clark, I would get rather defensive, especially since, hey, I’ve been reading her fantastic suspense novels all these years! It took me a while, but I finally stepped into your shoes, pro-HPers! I think most of you are great Catholic/Christian people…and it all comes down to YOUR conscience. Not mine. Not anybody else’s.
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:bowdown::tiphat:
I could go on “yadda” “yadda”… about how you should be reading something better, something holier, something with more depth.
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Exactly.

I’ve read threads about how Charlotte Church’s music is better than Jimi Hendrix. What? They’re two different genres. To say that one ought to be listening to Charlotte rather than Jimi because Charlotte’s singing is angelic is not a matter of one’s Catholic faith.

It is simply a matter of taste.
 
lil_flower_luv said:
No, I don’t think good Christian people will go to Hell for endorsing HP the same I don’t think you’ll go to Hell for endorsing a crime TV show. (And I don’t care who you are) but there is danger for those who get caught up in these books and are not grounded enough in their faith - that is undeniable, I am sorry to say. If we become too absorbed in anything of this world, for that matter, there’s danger. But I would like to make the point that even faithful Catholics who don’t listen to what the hierarchy of the Church has said (namely Fr. Euteneuer and our own pope, at the time-Cardinal), may have some things to work out in their Catholic lifestyle.
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Grounded in faith? Nay. That’s for when you’re dealing with material pumped with explicit propaganda like Chick Tracts, The Da Vinci Code, and His Dark Materials. As far as Harry Potter is concerned, all you need to be grounded in is in reality.

You probably already know by now just how much I am a die-hard fan of fantasy. But guess what? The reason why I love it so much is because I know I could never do anything of that in real life. I want to fly around, become a powerful spellcaster, battle monsters and rival wizards, and go on amazing adventures. Why? Because in real life, I have nothing special save my gift with fiction (be it writing or reading it), the only monsters in my life are ones you can’t deal by blasting them to bits, and most hours of my days are spent grinding and fretting over my studies. (The education is enlightening I’ll gladly admit, but studying all the time is obviously exhausting.)

Now when you look up actual witchcraft, real occultism, it is nothing like everything I love about fantasy. Tarot cards? Ouija boards? Nonsense! New Age hippie stuff? Laaaame!

All I’ve seen from ‘real’ occultism is empty ritualism. Real witches and satanists couldn’t shoot shadow bolts outta their hands any more than a priest can cast Heal. If anything else, it just supports my cynical attitude towards reality. :rolleyes:

Summing it up, I see the line between fantasy and reality so clearly that I actually despise reality sometimes and willingly embrace fantasy as my ultimate escape whenever I have to do the necessary evil of dealing with it. :cool:
lil_flower_luv said:
I ask my Sunday school class when they want to know what kind of music is morally right to listen to, “Would you listen to this with the pope in the room?” Or for young women who don’t know what to wear to Mass, “What would our Lady wear?”

Even if certain things are just for our entertainment, perhaps we should consider giving them up. How can we challenge ourselves to be a better Catholic still? Ah, yes, the tough question. 😉
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What people indulge in for entertainment can actually bear little to no relevance as how they act in real life. I mean I for one take great pleasure in imagining myself standing in a battlefield, surrounded by the corpses of fools who think me evil for defying a tyrant ruler (be they a zealous monarch or a Marxist democrat). I am also amused at the idea of seeing my sister as a vampire-style witch who I’d go have a witty sparring session with as a dragon-style warlock. However, is my conduct in such obviously fictitious scenarios the same conduct I have when engaging in real life? This may surprise you but the answer is a big, flat no. Why? Simple. I can’t behave like that in real life because I can’t do any of the stuff I imagine anyway. See how wonderful it is when people actually use logic?
lil_flower_luv said:
I don’t want to prove that HP is evil, I just want to prove that it is not reading material faithful Catholic adults should be engaging in.

C’mon! If you could read all the great books out there would you start with HP? No! There are spiritual books galore out there - and they feed your soul too! Have you read, “The Way of Perfection” by St. Teresa of Avila? “Story of a Soul” by St. Therese the Little Flower? “The Confessions of Saint Augustine”? “The Fulfillment of All Desire”? I can keep going. 🙂
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No offense, really but you sound like a geek from The Big Bang Theory recommending a book on advanced, theoretical physics to people who are in simply in search of a fun read. I mean as much as I get tired from studying, I actually experience a bit of pleasure reading the philosophical articles assigned in my Philo classes. Does that mean I’m going to recommend them to those who want to be entertained? Absolutely not because obviously different people appreciate different things differently.
 
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