C
Crusader
Guest
Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three Persons, one God. Defining the Heavenly Father as “she” is heresey, and likely the work of sexist/feminists.
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J
jordan
Guest
Iguana:
We can certainly speak to the sexuality of the Messiah, and in following his lead, we’ve got a pretty good example of how to pray to the Most High…“Our Father.” Lest we, as people, get into endless squabbles about gender usage, let’s not forget that we, as a church, have had norms established for just such purposes.
Liturgiam Authenticam (May 7, 2001) states:
Now, no reason for division.
I
iguana27
Guest
Holy Scripture has some examples of female imagery of God. I will say again. We need to be careful not to anththropomorphize, or give human characteristics, to God. He transcends gender.
Psalms 91:4 uses the image of a mothering bird -
“He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.”
and Jesus indicates his fondness of this same mothering image for himself
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (Matthew 23:37).
And this is an echo of Isaiah 66:13
“As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem.”
In the same way that I do not think it is appropriate to replace the words “Our Father” with “Our Mother” in the Lord’s prayer, I do not think it is appropriate to deny the female attributes which God the Father and Christ ascribe to themselves in Holy Scripture.
I am not advocating so called “inclusive language,” but I do feel that it is appropriate to recognize our rich history in Scripture and acknowledge that God is not male, but has aspects of masculinity as well as feminity and transcends them both.
Peace.
Psalms 91:4 uses the image of a mothering bird -
“He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.”
and Jesus indicates his fondness of this same mothering image for himself
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (Matthew 23:37).
And this is an echo of Isaiah 66:13
“As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem.”
In the same way that I do not think it is appropriate to replace the words “Our Father” with “Our Mother” in the Lord’s prayer, I do not think it is appropriate to deny the female attributes which God the Father and Christ ascribe to themselves in Holy Scripture.
I am not advocating so called “inclusive language,” but I do feel that it is appropriate to recognize our rich history in Scripture and acknowledge that God is not male, but has aspects of masculinity as well as feminity and transcends them both.
Peace.
C
Crusader
Guest
First, did you even review the saliant parts of Liturgiam Authenticam listed for your edification in a previous post? It looks like it might help you a great deal.Holy Scripture has some examples of female imagery of God. I will say again. We need to be careful not to anththropomorphize, or give human characteristics, to God. He transcends gender.
Psalms 91:4 uses the image of a mothering bird -
“He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.”
and Jesus indicates his fondness of this same mothering image for himself
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (Matthew 23:37).
And this is an echo of Isaiah 66:13
“As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem.”
In the same way that I do not think it is appropriate to replace the words “Our Father” with “Our Mother” in the Lord’s prayer, I do not think it is appropriate to deny the female attributes which God the Father and Christ ascribe to themselves in Holy Scripture.
I am not advocating so called “inclusive language,” but I do feel that it is appropriate to recognize our rich history in Scripture and acknowledge that God is not male, but has aspects of masculinity as well as feminity and transcends them both.
Peace.
Second, your personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture means absolutely nothing – nor does my own. Nada. Catholics rely on guidance from God through the Church to understand the Bible. It’s simply not open to our own interpretation, and that’s what you are trying to sell here.
Many would suggest the Bible contains absolutely no “female imagery of God.” Unless you rely on God through His Church, how can you suggest that your own interpretation is accurate, and their interpretations are inaccurate?
I
iguana27
Guest
Yes I did read the salient parts of your post, and I would like you to show me where in the discourse on inclusive language does it address the perspective of Mother Church on the scriptures I mentioned. You appear to be reading something into the Liturgiam Authenticam that is not there.
What you have quoted is not a declaration that God is male!
I am not trying to sell anything, and I think that characterization is unkind.
Here is a reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Edition
**239 **By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.
I do consider the Church when viewing scripture, and I believe that my understanding of the Scriptures I indicated in previous posts are in line with Church teaching.
What you have quoted is not a declaration that God is male!
I am not trying to sell anything, and I think that characterization is unkind.
Here is a reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Edition
**239 **By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.
I do consider the Church when viewing scripture, and I believe that my understanding of the Scriptures I indicated in previous posts are in line with Church teaching.
J
jordan
Guest
Hey, Iguana, Crusader didn’t quote LA, I did. I buy the part you quote from the CCC. There are plenty of folks around who would like have their way with gender pronouns. There are Catholic Bibles (with imprimaturs) that boast inclusive language. LA sets the record straight on what proper translations should reflect in terms of gender usage (Rome has spoken). What’s the point of debating masculine and feminine attributes of the divine? As far as the church’s “norm” goes:
God bless!
K
kmmd
Guest
In our parish, in which we do not have Pastor or a full time priest, we are asked to pray during the prayers of the Faithful for “An increase of vocations to the lay ministries”. I always respond, “Lord, Send us priests”
M
MarLee
Guest
Nonsense. Absolutely absurd.
Clergy and laity placing their own desires and agendas ahead of God and His Church.
Poor (or nonexistant) priestly/diaconate formation and catechesis of the laity.
Effete leadership from some bishops who obviously have no business being bishops.
Can we blame our politicans when even our priests don’t faithfully follow the teaching of the Church giving us the example that what GIRM states can be ignored? :banghead:
T
tcaseyrochester
Guest
Karl Keating:
RIGHT ON Karl! You hit the nail right on the head! BINGO, Yatzee, Rummy and Jackpot!!
Prediction: If we do not act to fix this cancer on the Amercian church in 100 years (or less) Jesus Christ will appear on the crosses above our altars as neither a man nor a woman, but some kind of android or something.
RIGHT ON Karl! You hit the nail right on the head! BINGO, Yatzee, Rummy and Jackpot!!Prediction: If we do not act to fix this cancer on the Amercian church in 100 years (or less) Jesus Christ will appear on the crosses above our altars as neither a man nor a woman, but some kind of android or something.
R
Ray_Marshall
Guest
When the Church is engaged in various places in a great Civil Liturgy War, perhaps not unlike that of the 16th Century, what is a Bishop to do? Assuming that the Bishop himself is orthodox and wants his diocese to be orthodox.
What if he tells the pastor to change his practices and the pastor refuses? If Bishops are reluctant to remove pastors accused or convicted of crimes, I suspect that they aren’t going to be too quick to remove one for having 12 rather than 8 Eucharistic Ministers on the Altar at a Mass.
*.
Liturgical abuse is a major problem of the Church today, rooted in Pride and Sloth, two of the Seven Deadly Sins that are often at the root of much of what is wrong in the world.
But I don’t know that an escalation of the Civil War is the answer.
First of all, when we are at Mass, we are there to adore Our Lord and participate in the Sacrifice of the Mass. We are not there as auditors with checklists representing the authors of the GIRM.
If you see an abuse. Pray! If you see another one, pray harder! And when it is appropriate, take action later. But don’t let your Mass turn into an experience of quiet rage.
Perhaps the solution is rooted in more prayer on our part, by being a good example to the others in the congregation (in my parish where we stand at the Consecration, I make sure to assume a very reverent, hands-folded-properly pose, when receiving the Eucharist, I am sure to bow reverently. I try to dress properly, etc.).
I suspect that every priest knows when he is deviating from the norm. And I doubt that a parishioner is very much appreciated when that is pointed out.
But if we regularly and quietly pointed out the abuses of the laity to our friends and neighbors and avoid them ourselves, perhaps a grass roots organization will spring up which will gradually solve this problem.
Incidently the lay abuse which aggravates me the most is teenage couples who think they are in a movie theater and can’t keep their hads off of each other. Being behind them is not conducive to reverence.*
What if he tells the pastor to change his practices and the pastor refuses? If Bishops are reluctant to remove pastors accused or convicted of crimes, I suspect that they aren’t going to be too quick to remove one for having 12 rather than 8 Eucharistic Ministers on the Altar at a Mass.
*.
Liturgical abuse is a major problem of the Church today, rooted in Pride and Sloth, two of the Seven Deadly Sins that are often at the root of much of what is wrong in the world.
But I don’t know that an escalation of the Civil War is the answer.
First of all, when we are at Mass, we are there to adore Our Lord and participate in the Sacrifice of the Mass. We are not there as auditors with checklists representing the authors of the GIRM.
If you see an abuse. Pray! If you see another one, pray harder! And when it is appropriate, take action later. But don’t let your Mass turn into an experience of quiet rage.
Perhaps the solution is rooted in more prayer on our part, by being a good example to the others in the congregation (in my parish where we stand at the Consecration, I make sure to assume a very reverent, hands-folded-properly pose, when receiving the Eucharist, I am sure to bow reverently. I try to dress properly, etc.).
I suspect that every priest knows when he is deviating from the norm. And I doubt that a parishioner is very much appreciated when that is pointed out.
But if we regularly and quietly pointed out the abuses of the laity to our friends and neighbors and avoid them ourselves, perhaps a grass roots organization will spring up which will gradually solve this problem.
Incidently the lay abuse which aggravates me the most is teenage couples who think they are in a movie theater and can’t keep their hads off of each other. Being behind them is not conducive to reverence.*
M
misericordie
Guest
I would totally have to disagree that the real issuse is that people are behind and have not caught up, especially when the liturgical abuse is perpetuated by those who should know better, namely some priests and higher ups. I think they just refuse to WANT to accept what the rules are, in favor of their own personal whims, and different forms of Mass as, entertainment.:dancing: Besides, the Holy See herself has pointed out specific and other not so specific “liturgical abuses”, and more recently the document by the Vatican’s own highest authority on the issue: Cardinal Arinze’. To deny there is any problem at all, is to put it lightly, naive.
C
catholiclady
Guest
I simply disagree. I think we are not hard enough on liturgical abuse.
D
darcee
Guest
I think there is a tendency to be overly critical in some cases about the music, the liturgy, the dress, the manners, or what not in a parish to the wrong people. I have seen time and time again when someone will endlessly complain about some abuse to friends, either online or IRL and NEVER have said anything to the priest because “they won’t listen”. I think this changes nothing and can only serve to undermine the general respect for the preisthood.
If there is something bothering you and you haven’t complained to the priest what business do you have bemoaning the issue to those you are relatively certain will agree with you… isn’t that just gossip?
-D
If there is something bothering you and you haven’t complained to the priest what business do you have bemoaning the issue to those you are relatively certain will agree with you… isn’t that just gossip?
-D
U
UnknownCloud
Guest
Maybe so darcee, but gossip is particularly aimed at defaming other people or spreading ‘false whitness’ - that’s what makes that kind of communication bad. And you make a good point - we shouldn’t be ‘just complaining’ but also acting - like writing our bishops. However, I’d like to think that we are learning from each other by exchanging ideas. I’ve only been on these forums a few days, and already I find myself identifying with many problems (and victories) of my fellow brothers and sisters and that alone gives me a sense of confidence to act rightly, no matter the consequence to myself. Liturgical abuse is a BIG problem in the US, and it’s got to stop. Laymen shouldn’t be questioning or undermining their priests, but the priests shouldn’t be undermining the magisterium and using their authority to force their own agenda by use of what properly belongs to the Universal Chruch. Many priests in my state alone need to be told to take a vacation - it really is that serious. They are taking advantage of the fact that there is a shortage in vocations at the present time, and that is just plain sick - it’s just sick. My pastor is not only a professed heretic, he’s hardly christian at all (if you don’t believe in the divinity of Christ, I’d say that you’re not ‘christian’). Nice huh? And I don’t say this to spread gossip - it’s a sad, sad truth from his own mouth. So I get to listen to his garbage every week during his homily and wonder wether I’m receiving the sacrement, all the while praying that our bishop, and my parish family will DO SOMETHING. Going to mass should not be a guessing game, nor should it be frustrating - it should be beautiful and sincere - that’s really all the rubrics ask for. And these priests that add their own little stamps to the liturgy is ludicrous - it eventually leads to all out heresy and something that isn’t worship at all. God is doing something about it, and personally, I want to be on the winning side.
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system
Guest
I must be one blessed individual because in my 15 years since ordination I haven’t experienced the abuses you describe. I have served with many different priest and bishops and they have all been very much in line with the GIRM in Word and Sacrament. Could it just be the Diocese I am in as a whole are faithful to the Church’s teaching.
Some of the things I read that you describe are very much against the GRIM. How can they not have the Penitential Rite? Substituting the Lord’s Prayer. This needs to be made known to your Bishop.
Some of the things I read that you describe are very much against the GRIM. How can they not have the Penitential Rite? Substituting the Lord’s Prayer. This needs to be made known to your Bishop.
T
tcaseyrochester
Guest
Ray Marshall:
It goes so much deeper than that. We are to pray what we believe and believe what we pray! The liturgy MUST reflect orthodox, authentic Church teaching or we distance ourselves (or worse are led away from) the Truth of one of Christ’s great gifts to us, i.e. His teaching. Yes we still benefit from His other great gift, the redemption of our sins as I think you are suggesting, but what good will it be when through the loss of His teaching we allow our world to sink further into darkness (sinfullness)?
S
S_Corda
Guest
Karl Keating:
Another example, in our diocese we have Acolytes, as described in GIRM, Canon Law, etc., not a crowd of eucharistic ministers. Outside of our diocese people don’t seem to know what an acolyte is.
True to some extent. For example, I am in a pretty orthodox diocese and parish. People pride themselves on knowing the faith, but it seems nobody has even heard of GIRM.
Another example, in our diocese we have Acolytes, as described in GIRM, Canon Law, etc., not a crowd of eucharistic ministers. Outside of our diocese people don’t seem to know what an acolyte is.
P
penitentman22
Guest
Karl Keating:
You are the man! Right on!
Karl,
You are the man! Right on!
S
S_Corda
Guest
So have you talked to your priest about this? Have you written the bishop? See zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=52462 (“Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum on certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist”) and scroll down to the section called “Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters” - maybe that will help.
M
Minimus
Guest
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Vulgate says, of course: “Et ait [Deus]: Faciamus hominem ad imaginem et similitudinem nostram et praesit piscibus maris et volatilibus caeli et bestiis universaeque terrae omnique reptili quod movetur in terra. Et creavit Deus hominem ad imaginem suam; ad imaginem Dei creavit illum; masculum et feminam creavit eos.” Gen. 1, 26-27.
It is clear, by the use of “homo” that God’s sex was not an issue from the very beginning. He made His “hominem” both “masculum” and “feminam.”
- Status