Some good stuff here!

[promethius95945]

Let’s slow down. Baptism gives us a share in divine life, that’s straight out of any catechism… Baptism makes us children of God, and brothers in Christ. God comes into our souls and lives there. In this sense we literally and really share in God’s very life. No, we do not become “gods”; but we do share in God’s divinity in the way stated–we have in us divinity, so we are divine “in a sense”–but NOT “absolutely”, OK?

Baptism DOES give us a share in divine life… but not in the sense that we “have in us divinity, so we are divine “in a sense””… What the catechism refers to is that we gain a share in divine life by having our HUMAN soul washed clean of the stain which is original sin so that we can be open to recieve the graces of the Divine God. Period. End sentence. There is nothing catholic which states we have divinity as a part of us, and only divinity IN us as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from whom our graces come. WE are not divine in any sense of the word.

From Dictionary.com:
di·vine
–adjective

1. of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
6. Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7. being a god; being God: a divine person.
8. of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.
9. Obsolete. of or pertaining to divinity or theology.

None of these fit the bill for humans.

 

[water]

where Jesus is, there is His Mother…?

Yes, and you can say that again.
My girlfriend happened to know Mother first, before she knew Jesus. How did this happen? She got a pamphlet on how to pray the Rosary, and that’s how her journey started.

 

[Ghosty]

Baptism DOES give us a share in divine life… but not in the sense that we “have in us divinity, so we are divine “in a sense””… What the catechism refers to is that we gain a share in divine life by having our HUMAN soul washed clean of the stain which is original sin so that we can be open to recieve the graces of the Divine God. Period. End sentence. There is nothing catholic which states we have divinity as a part of us, and only divinity IN us as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from whom our graces come. WE are not divine in any sense of the word.

From Dictionary.com:
di·vine
–adjective

1. of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
6. Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7. being a god; being God: a divine person.
8. of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.
9. Obsolete. of or pertaining to divinity or theology.

None of these fit the bill for humans.

First off, the common English dictionary is not the place to go for theological definitions. It’s not written with that in mind.

Secondly, I recommend you do some reading of solid Catholic theology on the matter. We most certainly do become Divine, but Divine by participation, meaning we share directly in God’s Life without losing ourselves and our own nature. For example, here is what the Catechism of Trent says on the matter:

Now according to the definition of the Council of Trent, which under pain of anathema we are bound to believe, grace not only remits sin, but is also a divine quality inherent in the soul, and, as it were, a brilliant light that effaces all those stains which obscure the lustre of the soul, investing it with increased brightness and beauty.

It is not simply the presence of the Holy Spirit that is Divinity within us, but Grace itself is actually a divine quality inherent in the soul, and we are bound to believe this or be heretics. The Holy Spirit, after all, is not a quality, so the Catechism of Trent isn’t speaking about that indwelling. The modern Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

This view is utterly Scriptural as well, for example 1 John 3:1-2

1: See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2: Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

And 2 Peter 1:

3: His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
4: by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

Here is how one of the Doctors of the Church describes it, St. John of the Cross (from Ascent of Mt. Carmel):

In thus allowing God to work in it, the soul (having rid itself of every mist and stain of the creatures, which consists in having its will perfectly united with that of God, for to love is to labour to detach and strip itself for God’s sake of all that is not God) is at once illumined and transformed in God, and God communicates to it His supernatural Being, in such wise that it appears to be God Himself, and has all that God Himself has. And this union comes to pass when God grants the soul this supernatural favour, that all the things of God and the soul are one in participant transformation; and the soul seems to be God rather than a soul, and is indeed God by participation; although it is true that its natural being, though thus transformed, is as distinct from the Being of God as it was before, even as the window has likewise a nature distinct from that of the ray, though the ray gives it brightness.

continued…

 

[storm807]

Baptism DOES give us a share in divine life… but not in the sense that we “have in us divinity, so we are divine “in a sense””… What the catechism refers to is that we gain a share in divine life by having our HUMAN soul washed clean of the stain which is original sin so that we can be open to recieve the graces of the Divine God. Period. End sentence. There is nothing catholic which states we have divinity as a part of us, and only divinity IN us as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from whom our graces come. WE are not divine in any sense of the word.

From Dictionary.com:
di·vine
–adjective

1. of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
6. Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7. being a god; being God: a divine person.
8. of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.
9. Obsolete. of or pertaining to divinity or theology.

None of these fit the bill for humans.

Dictionary does not count, man based.

 

[Ghosty]

Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, leading Catholic theologian of the first half of the last century, and theology teacher at the Angelicum in the Vatican, said this about Grace (ewtn.com/library/Theology/grace3.htm):

Therefore Deity as such cannot be partaken of except by some essentially supernatural gift. And, conversely, grace cannot be essentially supernatural unless it is a formal and physical participation in the divine nature as divine, that is, in the intimate life of God, or Deity as Deity, ordaining us to the knowledge of God as He Himself knows Himself immediately and to the love of God as He loves Himself.

Furthermore, sanctifying grace is a participation in Deity as it is in itself and not merely as it is known to us. For it is produced in our soul by an immediate infusion altogether independently of our knowledge of the Deity; and just as Deity as such is communicated to the Son by eternal generation, so Deity as such is partaken of by the just, especially by the blessed, through divine adoption.

St. Thomas Aquinas says in the Summa Theologica (newadvent.org/summa/2113.htm#9):

A work may be called great in two ways: first, on the part of the mode of action, and thus the work of creation is the greatest work, wherein something is made from nothing; secondly, a work may be called great on account of what is made, and thus the justification of the ungodly, which terminates at the eternal good of a share in the Godhead, is greater than the creation of heaven and earth, which terminates at the good of mutable nature.

Some theologians have tried to reduce Grace to being something less than this, but as you can see by the official, Magisterial Catechisms (and the writings of Doctors of the Church) such a reduction is not the view of the Church.

We must of course draw the line between how we are Divine, and how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are Divine. We are Divine like metal heated by fire is hot, and aquires other aspects of fire such as brightness, and the ability to share these qualities with others (hence blessings and Sacraments), as compared to the Divine Persons being the fire themselves. We never become the absolute source of Divinity the way they are, nor do we become “Divine Persons” like the Trinity, but we do participate in it in a very literal way.

If we didn’t, how could we even have the Holy Spirit within us at all? How could we “see God face to face”, eye to eye and personally, as the Apostle says? Unless we have “Divine eyes”, so to speak, how could we ever see God face to face? Much of our Faith hinges on the reality of this Divine participation.

Peace and God bless!

 

[storm807]

Can someone tell me what is your spirit? The flesh is garbage as we all kno wbut whatis your spirit? Are you not a spirit directly from GOD? Is GOD not Divine?
GOD only gives life and you have life, your spirit is pure life,pure GOD spirit, you are a part of him! Why is it so hard to believe that?!
Your flesh is not who you are, we are the light of the world, it never changed. the human mind did.The world told you that you unworthy, told you that your sickness is forever, told you that your death is normal.
The world told us everything opposite what Jesus did for us. he took death, both! sickness, disease. he cast out Palsy but we accept it today but we accept it.
I guess its how we translate it in the bible, we all see it differently.
i see it that way but you may see it another and thats all fine. we are all here together.

Sorry, melt down,
Please someone tell me where did your spirit come from and did it change?

 

[promethius95945]

First off, the common English dictionary is not the place to go for theological definitions. It’s not written with that in mind.

It is, however, written with the common usage included, which is why the dictionary is used by theologians in their writing…

We most certainly do become Divine, but Divine by participation, meaning we share directly in God’s Life without losing ourselves and our own nature.

Except for the portion before the first comma, you just stated exactly what I already said.

It is not simply the presence of the Holy Spirit that is Divinity within us, but Grace itself is actually a divine quality inherent in the soul, and we are bound to believe this or be heretics.

True, but grace, which is a divine quality, flows forth from God. Otherwise you are insinuating that we ourselves are the source of grace and therefore capable of our OWN salvation. THAT, my friend, is heresy.

As to your references, you have either not understood what I have been getting at, or you have misinterpreted what you quoted. I will go through them, item by item, now in order to hopefully clear up any misunderstandings.

grace not only remits sin, but is also a divine quality inherent in the soul

I already covered how grace, though a divine quality, does not stem from humans. It is part and parcel WITH the soul, but not from or of the soul.

From the Catechism: The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”

This proves my point: we partake of the divine nature. We are not the source of the divine nature, nor ARE we the divine nature.

your first scriptural reference:

but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Exactly… when we go before final judgement and enter into heaven our soul will be made pure and all sinful nature will be removed. Our heavenly bodies will be made perfect. Thus we will be LIKE God. We will still not BE God (hence, not divine). This is the exact place where mormons stumbled into their heresy.

Your second biblical quote was already addressed with the CCC quote.

Your quote from the doctor of the church, though it agrees with my position that the soul maintains a distinct nature different from God’s nature, is not authoritative and therefore doesn’t require response.

 

[Ghosty]

Can someone tell me what is your spirit? The flesh is garbage as we all kno wbut whatis your spirit? Are you not a spirit directly from GOD? Is GOD not Divine?
GOD only gives life and you have life, your spirit is pure life,pure GOD spirit, you are a part of him! Why is it so hard to believe that?!
Your flesh is not who you are, we are the light of the world, it never changed. the human mind did.The world told you that you unworthy, told you that your sickness is forever, told you that your death is normal.
The world told us everything opposite what Jesus did for us. he took death, both! sickness, disease. he cast out Palsy but we accept it today but we accept it.
I guess its how we translate it in the bible, we all see it differently.
i see it that way but you may see it another and thats all fine. we are all here together.

Sorry, melt down,
Please someone tell me where did your spirit come from and did it change?

The flesh isn’t garbage by any stretch of the imagination. Our soul is made for flesh, and our flesh for the soul; why else would we hope for the Resurrection of the Dead? The soul in itself is not Divine the way Grace is, but it becomes that way by Grace. Without Grace, the soul is little more than the flesh, albeit permanent and immortal. Without the body we’re imperfect, incomplete, not even people. There’s a reason why our soul learns things by eyes and ears, as well as internal revelation: the body is part of the operation of the soul, not some extra garbage loaded on top of it.

As to where our soul comes from, it comes from God directly. Again, though, that doesn’t mean it’s of the same nature as God, only that God by His power creates the soul, a lesser thing, out of nothing, just like He made the universe “in the beginning”.

Hope that helps!

Peace and God bless!

 

[Hellisreal]

The Cathars really hated the flesh and thought it was evil. THat is another interesting heresy.

 

[Ghosty]

True, but grace, which is a divine quality, flows forth from God. Otherwise you are insinuating that we ourselves are the source of grace and therefore capable of our OWN salvation. THAT, my friend, is heresy.

Nobody here has said that we become the source of Divinity, and certainly not me. In fact I explicitely emphasized otherwise.

One doesn’t have to become the source of something to share in its nature, just like iron isn’t the source of heat and light, and all other qualities of fire, yet it shares in them fully. We don’t need to make such hard and fast distinctions as saying “we are not Divine”, we only need to say that we are not the source of it, and like iron we need the constant presence of fire to maintain the quality of fire. That’s all anyone is saying, and that IS Divinity (and the Fathers, and the Councils, and the Catechisms, and the Doctors all agree on this).

Again, saying that we are not at all Divine by Grace is ultimately reductionist, because it removes the import and meaning from “participation”. The very notion of participation includes a distinction between the participator and the participated, so no further emphasis is needed. By stressing that we do not really have Divinity, you run the risk of denying that Grace literally makes us deiform.

Incidently, the mistake of the Mormons is quite different. They believe that we, as humans, share the same nature as God but imperfectly, like a baby compared to an adult. That is not anything like what I’m saying. Nor am I advocating any kind of pantheism, in which our own natures are utterly absorbed into God and dissolve. Again, the very notion of participation includes both real distinction, and real sharing of nature.

I encourage you to not draw such a hard and fast linguistic distinction that is quite simply not present in any of the official teachings of the Church. I think it’s much better to work with the language and theology the Church endorses, rather than trying to argue from non-religious dictionaries and theological positions not found among the Doctors and Magisterium.

Peace and God bless!

 

[promethius95945]

…just like iron isn’t the source of heat and light, and all other qualities of fire, yet it shares in them fully…

No, it does not share in heat and light fully. Your analogy is perfect… heat and light can be contained in the iron, but the iron does not BECOME heat and light. In the same way, we can contain the Divine (which is God) but we do not ever change natures and become divine.

and the Fathers, and the Councils, and the Catechisms, and the Doctors all agree on this

obviously they DON’T agree with this. None of what you posted as a source ever backed up the heretical concept that humans become divine. ALL of it backed up the idea that we PARTICIPATE in the Divine, that we can contain the divine, and that we have a distinct nature which does not BECOME divine. Your position is disturbingly far from anything the church has ever taught.

I think it’s much better to work with the language and theology the Church endorses, rather than trying to argue from non-religious dictionaries and theological positions not found among the Doctors and Magisterium.

if you’re looking for a strictly catholic discussion, maybe this post shouldn’t be in APPOLOGETICS. However, even so, it is YOUR misunderstanding of the quotes you posted which leads you to (incorrectly) believe that the church has some alternate definition of “divine” which would allow a human to be so. again, none of what you posted backs that position.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ghosty]

In the same way, we can contain the Divine (which is God) but we do not ever change natures and become divine.

Again, I have never, ever said that we change natures. I have explicitely excluded such an idea. I think you’re reading far too much into what I’ve said, and not taking it in the full context.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ghosty]

In the same way, we can contain the Divine (which is God) but we do not ever change natures and become divine.

Again, I have never, ever said that we change natures. I have explicitely excluded such an idea. I think you’re reading far too much into what I’ve said, and not taking it in the full context. I said we become Divine, not Divinity.

Peace and God bless!

 

[storm807]

Yes, and you can say that again.
My girlfriend happened to know Mother first, before she knew Jesus. How did this happen? She got a pamphlet on how to pray the Rosary, and that’s how her journey started.

Hi,. Im not a Catholic but very interested on how to pray the Rosary as you mentioned? Im not being disrespectful but that was a topic of mine here. Could you explain to me if you do not mind?

Blessings!
Charlie

 

[promethius95945]

I said we become Divine, not Divinity.

But to say we become divine (even though not divinity) IS to say we become God. That IS a change in nature which does not occur. Why do you think the bible, the catechism, and the church doctors are all so careful to say we become pure LIKE the Divine, that we participate in the divine, that we pass the divine through us… But they avoid EVER saying we “become” divine. That is simply a statement the church will NOT make.

 

[Ghosty]

But to say we become divine (even though not divinity) IS to say we become God. That IS a change in nature which does not occur. Why do you think the bible, the catechism, and the church doctors are all so careful to say we become pure LIKE the Divine, that we participate in the divine, that we pass the divine through us… But they avoid EVER saying we “become” divine. That is simply a statement the church will NOT make.

To say that we become Divine isn’t the same as saying that we become God as God is God. Divine is an adjective; I’ll say it one last time that I absolutely do not believe in, nor do I condone, the idea of a change in natures.

Peace and God bless!

 

[tdgesq]

To say that we become Divine isn’t the same as saying that we become God as God is God. Divine is an adjective; I’ll say it one last time that I absolutely do not believe in, nor do I condone, the idea of a change in natures.

x2. We share (participate) in the divine nature. We do not become God.

 

[Hellisreal]

Hi,. Im not a Catholic but very interested on how to pray the Rosary as you mentioned? Im not being disrespectful but that was a topic of mine here. Could you explain to me if you do not mind?

Blessings!
Charlie

Check out this link: familyrosary.org/main/rosary-daily.php

 

[promethius95945]

To say that we become Divine isn’t the same as saying that we become God as God is God. Divine is an adjective; I’ll say it one last time that I absolutely do not believe in, nor do I condone, the idea of a change in natures.

Peace and God bless!

But again, you are using the word divine in a sense that the common english usage AS WELL AS the church does not recognize. Divine is an adjective… an adjective which applies to God and God alone. Now again, I will challenge you to provide any authoritative documentation of the church which says we BECOME divine rather than (accurately) stating that we become PARTAKERS of the Divine. until then, i ask again that you stop promulgating what the church strictly does NOT endorse.

 

[Ghosty]

But again, you are using the word divine in a sense that the common english usage AS WELL AS the church does not recognize. Divine is an adjective… an adjective which applies to God and God alone. Now again, I will challenge you to provide any authoritative documentation of the church which says we BECOME divine rather than (accurately) stating that we become PARTAKERS of the Divine. until then, i ask again that you stop promulgating what the church strictly does NOT endorse.

How about I do you one better and provide an official Church Document that says “we become God”?

I already have. It’s the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Now of course the Catechism isn’t talking about a change in natures either. My point is simply that such strong language IS used by the Church. You keep insisting that I’ve said something that I haven’t, and I can’t help you with that any more than I have already. I’ll just say that my use of terms is consistant with the Church’s, and in fact less bold since I’m not saying we “become God” the way the Catechism does.

Peace and God bless!