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Teflon93
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What was the Didache protesting?
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Brian_Millar
Guest
Just to clarifiy the quote that appeared from me, it was actually from MIZER and he was quoting me in the process, so that last quote you did was not my words.
I don’t think there is much debate here in regards to faith and works at all, there is some definout misconceptions between both sides as to what each of them think, they are in fact in agreement on the matter, yet I guess people want to argue over what they “agree” with here?
I hope to end this debate, take note of the thread topic here, some help doesn’t mean some berrating for our protestant friends, nothing gets accomplished with that kind of a stance and adding insults on top of it only creates a wider division between the two sides.
Do you guys agree, faith “and” works are necessary, that only having one is insufficient, that both are necessary? It’s a yes or no answer here, mine is yes, what about the rest of you?
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Teflon93
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Faith and works are necessary for salvation, as is God’s justifying and sanctifying grace. Faith and works are necessary but not sufficient for salvation, as even the saint can’t save himself—he needs God’s grace.
One cannot honestly read Scripture and come to any other conclusion. It is simply too prevalent, especially within Christ’s teaching.
One cannot honestly read Scripture and come to any other conclusion. It is simply too prevalent, especially within Christ’s teaching.
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Brian_Millar
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Grace is a given, it’s offered to all man, every single one, that’s God’s gift, that’s his part he has already done for us, our’s is to follow up on our end of the bargain with faith and works. Does this clarify it for you better?
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Teflon93
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I didn’t require clarification.
The “already done for us” I would quibble with. My son has not been baptized yet; he has yet to receive God’s justifying grace. Once he does, he will begin to receive His sanctifying grace, in proportion to how he uses the gift he’s been given at baptism.
I myself receive, and will continue to receive, God’s sanctifying grace to resist sin and to perform works commensurate with His will.
One does not receive grace one time, but throughout one’s life. Moses’ life provides a good example of this.
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Atemi
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Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
The Holy Spirit says we are saved by grace through our faith, and explicitly removes works from the equation.
We must believe Him.
Rom 11:6 “And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.”
You can have God’s grace in the equation OR you can have your works. What no one can ever have is both.
If it is by grace, then it is not by any works. All men must pick and choose if they seek to be saved by God’s grace OR by their works. They cannot fall on both.
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Teflon93
Guest
Did Luther steal your James?
Or your Matthew?
If you don’t believe James, you’d better believe Jesus.
Funny how fundamentalists quote St Paul so much more frequently than Christ. You’d think the Bible was limited to the Epistles, ripped from context.
Brian,
You are right. Sorry about the misapplication of the quote.
I agree with what you say, along with Teflon’s statements about grace, baptism, etc.
Jon
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Teflon93
Guest
And I agree with your earlier observation regarding how Catholics and Lutherans are coming to realize that the way we view salvation is more similar than not. Since that is far and away the most important aspect of Christian theology from the point of view of those yearning to be saved, that’s no small thing!Brian,
You are right. Sorry about the misapplication of the quote.
I agree with what you say, along with Teflon’s statements about grace, baptism, etc.
Jon
And it may be the biggest stumbling block to unity, as many of our other differences stem from this one. You are right! Finding convergence on this issue is no small thing, not only for those yearning for salvation, but also for the future of the faith, and how and when we reach Christ’s command of unity.And I agree with your earlier observation regarding how Catholics and Lutherans are coming to realize that the way we view salvation is more similar than not. Since that is far and away the most important aspect of Christian theology from the point of view of those yearning to be saved, that’s no small thing!
Jon
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Atemi
Guest
I quote the Holy Spirit, who is the Author of all.
Unlike some, I do not pit the Holy Spirit against Himself and I see a beautiful harmony in everything He teaches.
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Teflon93
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So why don’t you quote Him when He speaks through James?
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Atemi
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Teflon93
Guest
Except when you don’t.
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Teflon93
Guest
And while I’m at it, I’m sick of people cherrypicking St Paul as though he was an ur-fundamentalist.
Wonder why I rarely see the 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians quoted by such people:
Wonder why I rarely see the 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians quoted by such people:
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Brian_Millar
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We have made some progress, still need to get us all as a united force to get some constructive dialog to continue here.
With the guy that thinks his son is not under God’s grace because he has not gotten his son baptized, that’s a legalistic approach towards your faith. Your son if he were to pass away today would not be held accountable due to his parents inaction in this regard, he’s justified through grace alone in spite of the parents lack of following through on this matter. Reccomendation here, get him baptized and clear your concience.
With the guy that has thrown out works, works cannot be done by someone with no faith, they are worthless without them. Sure, it’s good to do good things, anybody can do that including athiests, it’s not enough though, faith is required, and again, as I stated from the beginning, the works are the fruit, not the meathod or “system” to follow to earn your way to salvation. Clearly I must elaborate on this one further if you don’t see my point here. Along the HS, I am very much guided by him in a deep way, you are not, you must know this fact, and you must never take this lightly, it’s not to berrate you, it’s to get you to know, there is more, much more you do not experience, and if you did, you would know what I’m saying here without disagreement.
Back to the guy that thinks his son does not fall under God’s grace, and back on this tangent in regards to the Holy Spirit, I felt his presence well before I was formally baptized, the holy spirit does not reveal himself, much less to the intimate degree to one that is not under his Grace, your son can also experience the HS in this manner, and in fact, he has a better chance at it then you because he is a child, thinks as a child, and does not know condemnation the world will soon try to get him to accept stance wise towards his fellow man.
I’m trying to create unity and clarity here for both sides, it’s not to say I’m going to stand by while others clearly are trying to keep this dialog left wing, or right wing, or what ever personal perspective they choose to absorb, it’s about the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Empasis being on the “whole” for a partial truth is a lie and this is where many have problems with interpretating the teachings from the bible, and out of this, mainly based upon things quoted out of context.
With the guy that thinks his son is not under God’s grace because he has not gotten his son baptized, that’s a legalistic approach towards your faith. Your son if he were to pass away today would not be held accountable due to his parents inaction in this regard, he’s justified through grace alone in spite of the parents lack of following through on this matter. Reccomendation here, get him baptized and clear your concience.
With the guy that has thrown out works, works cannot be done by someone with no faith, they are worthless without them. Sure, it’s good to do good things, anybody can do that including athiests, it’s not enough though, faith is required, and again, as I stated from the beginning, the works are the fruit, not the meathod or “system” to follow to earn your way to salvation. Clearly I must elaborate on this one further if you don’t see my point here. Along the HS, I am very much guided by him in a deep way, you are not, you must know this fact, and you must never take this lightly, it’s not to berrate you, it’s to get you to know, there is more, much more you do not experience, and if you did, you would know what I’m saying here without disagreement.
Back to the guy that thinks his son does not fall under God’s grace, and back on this tangent in regards to the Holy Spirit, I felt his presence well before I was formally baptized, the holy spirit does not reveal himself, much less to the intimate degree to one that is not under his Grace, your son can also experience the HS in this manner, and in fact, he has a better chance at it then you because he is a child, thinks as a child, and does not know condemnation the world will soon try to get him to accept stance wise towards his fellow man.
I’m trying to create unity and clarity here for both sides, it’s not to say I’m going to stand by while others clearly are trying to keep this dialog left wing, or right wing, or what ever personal perspective they choose to absorb, it’s about the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Empasis being on the “whole” for a partial truth is a lie and this is where many have problems with interpretating the teachings from the bible, and out of this, mainly based upon things quoted out of context.
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Teflon93
Guest
It’s better form to identify which “guys” you’re referring to, preferably by quoting their posts. This is a long thread; there’s too much scrolling to do for lack of specificity.
For my part, I certainly agree with you that one must consider all of the evidence (particularly Scriptural evidence) and avoid pulling quotes from context. I am given to quoting whole chapters and highlighting portions of particular relevance so as to facilitate discussion.
I imagine some folks do get sick of the scrolling they have to do, but omelettes require breaking eggs…
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Brian_Millar
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It may be benificial for you to re-read your own posts then, you should have remembered what was dialoged about and know what I’m discussing along these matters, I guess I’ll pull up quotes in the future here just to referesh your memory without forcing you to scroll back. I’m spending the entire day on the computer at work programming and designing as their in house webmaster, so I’d rather be a little lazy being yet back on the box afterwards, of which now, I’m kind of avoiding it to take it easy on my eyes which happens when you are having to intensly stare into the screen fixing and creating code, not like our causual reads and posts here.
I’m trying to convey a message here along unity, we are after all Catholics and this core belief in our religion is about unity, thankfully now due to the www, we can finally dialog with the protestants in a large way, hopefully bringing them into the fold and joining the Catholic church so we speak entirely as one voice together rather then fight among ourselves. This is going to take compromize on both sides here, simple dialog alone, if we cannot even compromize here, how is it possible to do so as fellow bretheren of the same faith and religion?
So, back to the original topic, “Some help for our Protestant friends”, let us be just that, help…
I’m trying to convey a message here along unity, we are after all Catholics and this core belief in our religion is about unity, thankfully now due to the www, we can finally dialog with the protestants in a large way, hopefully bringing them into the fold and joining the Catholic church so we speak entirely as one voice together rather then fight among ourselves. This is going to take compromize on both sides here, simple dialog alone, if we cannot even compromize here, how is it possible to do so as fellow bretheren of the same faith and religion?
So, back to the original topic, “Some help for our Protestant friends”, let us be just that, help…
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Atemi
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Sorry, Teflon.
I was not aware that every non-Catholic post must include citations from the book of James.
Is that a rule here?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
How to use the Catholic Answers Forum Quote Function
If you want to insert your comments into the middle of something you are quoting, you have to manually insert square brackets. Here is the original passage I want to comment on:
You don’t even need two brain cells to see how idiotic the teaching of the eucharist really is. It was so important that Peter, who wrote two epistles, overwhelms the reader with the topic of the eucharist.
In order to show you what you need to do, I have to use a different set of brackets for illustrative purposes only. I’ll use { and } instead of and ] so that you can see where the brackets should be located, and I’ll insert my comments in red text.
{quote}You don’t even need two brain cells to see how idiotic the teaching of the eucharist really is.{/quote} I’m inserting my comments here in red. {quote}It was so important that Peter, who wrote two epistles, overwhelms the reader with the topic of the eucharist.{/quote}Hope this helps.
Now, wherever you see the { or } you have to actually use a square bracket or ]. So the paragraph above comes out like this:
I’m inserting my comments here in red.
Hope this helps.
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