Some questions about Catholic teaching

[noobio]

Note: You must not bow down to them or worship them. Catholics don’t worship statues, but they do bow down to statues. A sin according to scripture.

The point of Exodus 20:4 is just state that worship of anything or anyone but GOD is not allowed. It seems you are focusing too much on a little word or phrase which is “bow”. The act of bowing does not always break this commandment, unless it is done with the intention of worshiping the item or structure itself or whatever is one can bow down to. Psalm 5:7 says " But I, by your great mercy will come into your house: in reverence will I bow down toward your temple". This is a good example of bowing which is not sinful, it is done out of reverence and respect to God, just as Christians do when they bow toward the Alter.

As I mentioned before, you are focusing on a word too much causing incorrect interpretation (I am not trying to insult you). If we read Ex 34:14 and focus completely on
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God", should we conclude it to be as an confirmation of the existence of other gods who are not to be worshiped ? Or simply see it as a way of God saying only he is worthy of worship ?

If God commanded me to make a statue of a biblical figure and bow down to it, I would. Unfortunately for the Church, He never commanded the Church to do such a thing.

God never said, the Church can not do such things. And doesn’t Moses set up 12 stones representing the tribes of Isreal ? I do not recall God asking him to do that.

It needs to because Catholics teach that we must confess to a priest to have our sins forgiven. If it’s not in the Bible, why should it be doctrine?

I think its best to make another thread for this.

Sorry if I repeated anything, I haven’t read the thread since Monday.

 

[jmcrae]

Will do, like I said, at this point I am simply replying. I understand the rule now.

Luke 1:34 does not indicate a vow of virginity. If she had said, “I will know not a man”, that is a vow of virginity.

She said, “I do not know man” - it’s in the present tense. but referring to a permanent situation, much as one might say, “I do not eat meat,” or “I do not swim.”

As others have mentioned, surely she would have realized that in a few days or so, she could get pregnant with a child from Joseph, but no - she didn’ t think she could get pregnant at all.

 

[jmcrae]

I am not critiquing confession in general, only the idea that confession must be to a priest.

I would rather confess to a priest, since a priest is bound to the seal of the confessional, rather than to a congregation that might include people who gossip.

 

[jmcrae]

I pray for people without praying “to” them. Praying for someone still involves praying solely to God.

Yes, but in order for you to know what to pray for, for that person, he must have had to “pray to” you - which simply means, he asked you to pray for him. We ask the Saints to pray for us to God, the same way we ask any of our friends to pray for us.

It’s funny that you should reference Matthew 23, beacuse Matthew 23:1-12, and specifically Matthew 23:8, tells us not to call anyone Rabbi because our only spiritual Father is God. Jesus is saying in Matthew 23 that Christians should continue to observe the commandments of Moses, but should no longer have positions as spiritual masters. This is why, I believe, the early Christian Church regarded elders, rather than calling priests “father”.

St. Paul refers to himself as a spiritual father several times - he called Timothy “my son” for example, although elsewhere he makes it clear that he is celibate.

 

[seekerofanswers]

Tell you what…if you are really interested, I will be willing to loan you either of those books, at my own expense (postage). Feel free to PM me if you are interested.

Thank you for being so considerate. I might end up purchasing it, but you needn’t take it upon yourself.

 

[seekerofanswers]

“I do not eat meat,” or “I do not swim.”

These are not necessarily permanent. Vegetarians can discontinue their vegetarianism and people can learn to swim.

As others have mentioned, surely she would have realized that in a few days or so, she could get pregnant with a child from Joseph, but no - she didn’ t think she could get pregnant at all.

So Mary was barren? I don’t think that’s what you are trying to say. I agree with you that she is clearly saying that she does not have relations with Joseph, but she is speaking about the present, not necessarily the future.

 

[seekerofanswers]

I would rather confess to a priest, since a priest is bound to the seal of the confessional, rather than to a congregation that might include people who gossip.

Not to sound harsh, but this is completely irrelevant. Confession in the Bible was done to many witnesses and to “each other”. A body of true believers in Christ would not gossip, as we know that we are all sinners.

 

[seekerofanswers]

Yes, but in order for you to know what to pray for, for that person, he must have had to “pray to” you - which simply means, he asked you to pray for him.

This is not true at all. I can pray for someone without them asking for it.

We ask the Saints to pray for us to God, the same way we ask any of our friends to pray for us.

Scripture says that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. We can’t “ask” the Saints to pray for us to God because they are no longer alive in the flesh. Asking your friend or family member to pray for you is not mediating between you and God because their prayer involves a prayerful connection to God through Christ alone. Praying to a Saint is different, because you are claiming to make a prayerful connection to God through a Saint and then Christ. Two mediators.

 

[seekerofanswers]

St. Paul refers to himself as a spiritual father several times - he called Timothy “my son” for example, although elsewhere he makes it clear that he is celibate.

Oops, forgot to respond to this. Would appreciate Scriptural support.

 

[jmcrae]

These are not necessarily permanent. Vegetarians can discontinue their vegetarianism and people can learn to swim.

So Mary was barren? I don’t think that’s what you are trying to say. I agree with you that she is clearly saying that she does not have relations with Joseph, but she is speaking about the present, not necessarily the future.

We’re not talking about “the distant future” - she was already betrothed to Joseph (ie: the wedding ceremony had already taken place - the vows were said already); she would have been moving in with him to begin their married life within a short time. Does a typical bride on her wedding day think she will remain a virgin into the foreseeable future?

 

[guanophore]

This is an insulting comment…the Catholic Church IS the Christian Church…In fact it is the most biblical of the Christian Churches.

The above may have been made without thinking…but I find it to be a most disturbing development in what has become an increasingly disturbing thread.

Peace
James

Yes, it seems the OP is really not any effort to really seek Catholic Answers. the OP clearly seems to have already (if ever having had possession) left the Catholic faith and the use of “Catholic” is actually quite disingenuous.

The OP claims to be reading the Bible from Genesis, and has ''questions", but the canned list includes issues far beyond the boundaries of Genesis.

The OP seems to enjoy sending everyone here on goose chases to collect “proofs”, none of which are satisfactory to quell the preconcieved anti-Catholic positions.

Methinks there is a bridge nearby with a vacancy under it…:ehh:

 

[seekerofanswers]

Yes, it seems the OP is really not any effort to really seek Catholic Answers. the OP clearly seems to have already (if ever having had possession) left the Catholic faith and the use of “Catholic” is actually quite disingenuous.

I find this rather offensive. I was born and raised Catholic. I originally came on this website to see what the Church’s take on my political views was. At that time, I was not questioning the Church on doctrine. It never fails to baffle me why some people on this site are so arrogant and assuming towards people that question Church teaching and whose faith is still developing. If you are trying to turn people away from the Church, continue to be this way.

The OP claims to be reading the Bible from Genesis, and has ''questions", but the canned list includes issues far beyond the boundaries of Genesis.

In one of the posts I made I stated that I am reading the NT and OT side-by-side.

The OP seems to enjoy sending everyone here on goose chases to collect “proofs”, none of which are satisfactory to quell the preconcieved anti-Catholic positions.

I have already stated that I realize sending everyone on goose chases was a poor idea. Saying that I have preconcieved anti-Catholic positions only hurts the Catholic position, because the “positions” that I stated are what I drew from reading Scripture.

Methinks there is a bridge nearby with a vacancy under it…:ehh:

I don’t understand this.

 

[seekerofanswers]

We’re not talking about “the distant future” - she was already betrothed to Joseph (ie: the wedding ceremony had already taken place - the vows were said already); she would have been moving in with him to begin their married life within a short time. Does a typical bride on her wedding day think she will remain a virgin into the foreseeable future?

No, but this still does not prove that it was a vow of virginity. Plus, if “she would have been moving in with him to begin their married life within a short time”, that means that they were not currently living together, which is a perfect explanation of why Mary would say what she did.

 

[jmcrae]

No, but this still does not prove that it was a vow of virginity. Plus, if “she would have been moving in with him to begin their married life within a short time”, that means that they were not currently living together, which is a perfect explanation of why Mary would say what she did.

Okay - let me put it this way. You walk up to a young woman with a ring on her right hand and tell her, “My dear, you will be pregnant within a year,” and she will say, “Why yes, how did you know? I’m getting married in (x) weeks.”

She will not say, “How can this be, since I do not know man?”

But, unlike most girls with a ring on their finger, Mary did, in fact, reply as if she had not thought of the connection between getting married and having children.

The choices are:

A. She was very stupid. (Which is contradicted by her responses to Elizabeth a few verses further on, which show us a very well educated, thoughtful, and intelligent young woman.)

B. She had a vow of virginity.

 

[seekerofanswers]

Okay - let me put it this way. You walk up to a young woman with a ring on her right hand and tell her, “My dear, you will be pregnant within a year,” and she will say, “Why yes, how did you know? I’m getting married in (x) weeks.”

She will not say, “How can this be, since I do not know man?”

But, unlike most girls with a ring on their finger, Mary did, in fact, reply as if she had not thought of the connection between getting married and having children.

The choices are:

A. She was very stupid. (Which is contradicted by her responses to Elizabeth a few verses further on, which show us a very well educated, thoughtful, and intelligent young woman.)

B. She had a vow of virginity.

Could you please explain to me why she would spontaneously take a vow of virginity? This also still doesn’t prove that she wouldn’t come to “know man” in the future.

 

[jmcrae]

Could you please explain to me why she would spontaneously take a vow of virginity?

It was not “spontaneous.” She was offered to the Temple when she was three years old, because already it was understood that she was an extraordinary child, since she had never been disobedient in any way - when all the other two year olds were stamping their feet and yelling “NO” little Mary was saying, “Yes Mother, and when I’ve finished that, what shall I do for you next? Daddy, how can I show that I love you more and more every day?”

When she could no longer live at the Temple, due to her womanhood coming upon her, she was given to Joseph, an elderly widower, to take as his wife - not for sex, but to protect her and shield her from the things of the world. We read about this in the Protoevangelium of James.

 

[JRKH]

These are not necessarily permanent. Vegetarians can discontinue their vegetarianism and people can learn to swim.

So Mary was barren? I don’t think that’s what you are trying to say. I agree with you that she is clearly saying that she does not have relations with Joseph, but she is speaking about the present, not necessarily the future.

Seeker…I know that this is in response to someone else…but it reminds me of the point I made at least twice earlier in the thread and which has never received a reply. So allow me to ask you directly:
If you were Joseph…being who Joseph was (a righteous man)… knew what Joseph knew (That Mary carried a child conceived directly by God)…had the experiences that Joseph had (angel visits in the night, wise men bringing gifts, kings trying to kill the child)…
Do you believe that you would have sought to have sexual relations with Mary?

Forget about dissecting this or that word in the Bible…Just place yourself in Joseph’s sandals, as it were, and answer that question…Would you, a just and righteous man before God, seek to have sexual relations with one who is obviously consecrated to God through this miracle?

Not to sound harsh, but this is completely irrelevant. Confession in the Bible was done to many witnesses and to “each other”. A body of true believers in Christ would not gossip, as we know that we are all sinners.

Well consider this. Perhaps the reason we DO have private confession now is BECAUSE the congregation is full of sinners and so…despite their trying to be true believers…they gossip and act uncharitably anyway.

Scripture says that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. We can’t “ask” the Saints to pray for us to God because they are no longer alive in the flesh.

Not being “alive in the flesh” has no bearing on the ability of the saints to pray for us.
Moses and Elijah were not “alive in the flesh” yet they are seen conversing with Jesus at the transfiguration. Further, Jesus declares that God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

Asking your friend or family member to pray for you is not mediating between you and God because their prayer involves a prayerful connection to God through Christ alone. Praying to a Saint is different, because you are claiming to make a prayerful connection to God through a Saint and then Christ. Two mediators.

Now - I will ask you to substantiate from the Catechism that this is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Yes, it seems the OP is really not any effort to really seek Catholic Answers. the OP clearly seems to have already (if ever having had possession) left the Catholic faith and the use of “Catholic” is actually quite disingenuous.

The OP claims to be reading the Bible from Genesis, and has ''questions", but the canned list includes issues far beyond the boundaries of Genesis.

The OP seems to enjoy sending everyone here on goose chases to collect “proofs”, none of which are satisfactory to quell the preconcieved anti-Catholic positions.

Methinks there is a bridge nearby with a vacancy under it…:ehh:

I find this rather offensive. I was born and raised Catholic. I originally came on this website to see what the Church’s take on my political views was. At that time, I was not questioning the Church on doctrine. It never fails to baffle me why some people on this site are so arrogant and assuming towards people that question Church teaching and whose faith is still developing. If you are trying to turn people away from the Church, continue to be this way.

In one of the posts I made I stated that I am reading the NT and OT side-by-side.

I have already stated that I realize sending everyone on goose chases was a poor idea. Saying that I have preconcieved anti-Catholic positions only hurts the Catholic position, because the “positions” that I stated are what I drew from reading Scripture.

I don’t understand this.

Seeker…
While I choose not to make the kind of statements that guanaphore has made, I have to admit that I too have had concerns about some of the approaches you have taken and arguments you have put forth. I do not say this as an attack either on your personally or on your sincere desire for truth. Rather, I say this because they are very much Protestant arguments both in substance AND in style. Especially the dogmatic way in which you strictly insist on bible references for support.

Having been raised Catholic, you should be aware that the Church has never taught “Bible Alone”. You should be aware that the Church teaches that when we read Scripture we need to do so “with the mind of the Church” as it were. The Catechism states it thus:
113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture.
To read more on this, go HERE
So - as a Catholic, not only should you read Scripture, but you should do so - side by side - with the catechism which will, I promise you - provide you with a great many additional and ancient sources for your understanding. In this I refer to the ECF’s and the Councils.

At present there appears in your posts and in your style a very strong protestant influence, possibly evangelical in nature. Perhaps a good friend or friends who you have been discussing these matters with??

In any event, I hope you will forgive us for our suspicions but it would not be the first time that someone came on CAF, flying under false colors. It’s hard sometimes not to become jaded and suspicious.

Peace
James

 

[adrift]

Scripture says that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. ** We can’t “ask” the Saints to pray for us to God because they are no longer alive in the flesh.** Asking your friend or family member to pray for you is not mediating between you and God because their prayer involves a prayerful connection to God through Christ alone. Praying to a Saint is different, because you are claiming to make a prayerful connection to God through a Saint and then Christ. Two mediators.

Really what scripture do you have for the bolded part? Praying to a saint is no different than you asking a friend. It is asking them to ask Jesus not two mediators but one. Mary asked Jesus and her intersession was so powerful that even though it was not His time He did as she asked. All saints are alive for Jesus said that God was the God of the living not the dead.

 

[adrift]

Could you please explain to me why she would spontaneously take a vow of virginity? This also still doesn’t prove that she wouldn’t come to “know man” in the future.

You have not explained why a married woman would make such a statement.