Some questions about Mary

[rom323]

jimmy:

My statement in that post does not deny the humanity of Jesus, it only affirms the divinity of Jesus. If I want to say that Mary is not the mother of humanity, I would have to say “Mary is not the mother of a man.”. Then you would be correct, but I have never made that claim.

The fact that we call Mary the “mother of God” actually affirms the humanity of Jesus. The fact that we are calling her his mother assumes that he is a man. A woman can not give birth to a mouse or a rat or a squid or anything like that. She can only give birth to a man. That man she gave birth to was God. So, the word mother in the title affirms that Jesus is a man, and the word God affirms that he is God.

That person she gave birth to was both God and man!
The problem is with the title given to Mary, “Mother of God.” This title suggests that Mary is the mother of divinity which is not the case. God has no mother!

I enjoy these discussions, thankyou for the great dialogue.

The problem with calling Mary “the mother of God” is that this title implies that Jesus is only God and not man. It also implies that God did not exist before the birth of Jesus. The fact is that Mary did not give birth to the pre-incarnate form of the Logos who, as we know, existed from all eternity.

Interestingly, the title used by the framers of both councils (Chalcedon and Ephesus) was Theotokos, which means literally, “God bearer,” and not “Mother of God.” They could have used meter theou, which is literally “Mother of God,” and which was in use at that time by Cyril; but, significantly, they chose not to!

I also enjoy these discussions. Thank you and may God bless you with wisdom and knowledge.

 

[rom323]

john doran:

when catholics call mary “the mother of god”, they do NOT mean that mary is the creator of god. they mean simply that** mary is the mother of an individual who is both fully human and fully divine.**

do you honestly believe that catholics think that mary is the cause of god’s existence? seriously - do you?

I understand that you do not believe that Mary is the cause of God’s existence, but in using the title “mother of God,” that’s exactly what is being promoted.

If you truly believe that mary is the mother of an individual who is both fully human and fully divine, then the term “mother” should not be used. I agree with the framers of both councils (Chalcedon and Ephesus) who used the term Theotokos, which means literally, “God bearer,” and not “Mother of God.” They could have used meter theou, which is literally “Mother of God,” and which was in use at that time by Cyril; but, significantly, they chose not to!

 

[rom323]

reggie:

rom323

What do you hope to gain here? I have read every post and you have not stated anything that is new. Many of the objections and “Scriptural” evidence you give have been debated by theologians of the Catholic Church for centuries. I put Scriptural in quotations because you espouse the translations that you accept, while dismissing out of hand those used by Catholics.
Now I understand that what I am saying is basically falling on deaf ears, because you are operating from the position that the Church teaches error and therefore cannot possibly be the Church Jesus founded. It is the positions of most protestants that the NT is the be all and end all of Jesus’s teachings but that is not the position of the Church. John in his Gospel says that he is writing so that we might know Jesus, believe in Him and in believing, be saved. John also writes that the world could not contain the books that would be written, if the many other things that Jesus did were written down.

We are told in the NT to hold fast to all we hear, either by spoken word or letter. We are also told that Scriptures are not for personal interpretation. You must accept these things to understand the Church. You must trust Jesus when He said that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church and that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to all truth. He says explicitly that He has other things to tell the Apostles but that they were not yet ready to hear it. But all of this requires faith. Not just faith that through Jesus you are saved, but faith in all the words of Jesus.

Now it was put forth to you that if Jesus had in fact proclaimed the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary, would you risk hell denying it? Well, through the infallibility of the Church, Jesus has proclaimed this. We know it’s true because we know that the Holy Spirit does not allow the Church to teach error.

Of course, I expect you will have apoplectic fits when reading this as you deny all claims made by the Church. I would just have you consider this. Whether you wish it to be so or not, the core beliefs of Christianity were formulated and formally defined by councils of the Catholic Church. Even the Canon of the Bible is due to Catholic Councils.

Now, I invite you to read John 21:20-23 when Peter questioned Jesus about John. I will not recount the entire text here but find Jesus’ response edifying, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

So I say to you, if Jesus has proclaimed through His Church the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary and her title as “Mother of God”, what is that to you? We are not illiterates of our faith here. We know your objections but we firmly reject them. You cannot accept this. So be it. Many of Jesus’ disciples could not accept other hard sayings of His and left Him. I, like Jesus, will not call you back. But, the Church is there for you if you ever want to let go of your prejudice and approach Her with a humble heart seeking truth.

Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto thine.

The problem is I do not believe that Jesus Christ founded the Roman Catholic Church. I do not accept it’s authority nor do I accept any of it’s teachings that conflict with the Word of God!

You bring up the point of bible translations so I would like you to give me the Douay Rheims version of Genesis 3:15!

If you believe that we have exhausted this topic, maybe we should move on to another question about Mary?

 

[rom323]

hlgomez:

ROM323,

YOU DON’T HAVE TO REPEAT IT, NESTORIUS.

Pio

Do you think that Jesus is only God? If so you are guilty of heresy!

 

[rom323]

hlgomez:

This is what Rom323 thinks, really–but Catholics don’t think it this way. Rom323, whether he is aware or not, bought the view of Bishop Nestorius who was anathemized by the Catholic Church at the Council of Ephesus in the year 425. So in short, his views regarding Mother Mary are nothing new to the Catholic Church. It is a very old heresy.

Rom323, to tell you honestly–any attack against the Mother of God is an attack on the Second Person of the Trinity, whether done deliberately or not. It always leads to the diminshing the true message of the Gospel regarding our Lord–especially His incarnation.

The doctrine of the Church is always that, at the moment of conception of the Second Person of the Trinity at the womb of the Blessed Mother, it was an hypostatic union–a natural union of the Divine and Human natures–a complete union and inseparable union. You can never separate them ever. So if you just say that Mary is just the Mother of the Human Person of Christ–you are guilty of unbelief in the Incarnation. You deny that God really became Human. Jesus is God-Man. Not either or.

:banghead: Why then is Mary called ONLY the Mother of God???
Why didn’t the framers of the councils of Chalcedon and Ephesus use the term meter theou, which is literally “Mother of God”?

May you be enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

Pio

May the Holy Spirit enlighten your heart and mind to the truth of His Word.

 

[jimmy]

rom323:

:banghead: Why then is Mary called ONLY the Mother of God???
Why didn’t the framers of the councils of Chalcedon and Ephesus use the term meter theou, which is literally “Mother of God”?

May the Holy Spirit enlighten your heart and mind to the truth of His Word.

The reason why we only use that term is because that is the only one that has been disputed. No one disputed that she was "mother of man’.

Is there anywhere where I can see the latin online?

 

[jimmy]

rom323:

That person she gave birth to was both God and man!
The problem is with the title given to Mary, “Mother of God.” This title suggests that Mary is the mother of divinity which is not the case. God has no mother!

I also said this

My statement in that post does not deny the humanity of Jesus, it only affirms the divinity of Jesus.

Mother is a human term. The title does not suggest that she created God the Word. It only suggests that she was the mother of God the Word. Which means she concieved God the Word in her womb. There was no point where it was only a man in her womb. It was God the Son from the exact momment of conception. The two natures are inseperable. Since both natures are together and are not seperated. We speak of them together. Mary is the mother of Christ, which means she is the mother of God since Christ is God. She is also the mother of man, since Christ is a man.

The problem with calling Mary “the mother of God” is that this title implies that Jesus is only God and not man. It also implies that God did not exist before the birth of Jesus. The fact is that Mary did not give birth to the pre-incarnate form of the Logos who, as we know, existed from all eternity.

Interestingly, the title used by the framers of both councils (Chalcedon and Ephesus) was Theotokos, which means literally, “God bearer,” and not “Mother of God.” They could have used meter theou, which is literally “Mother of God,” and which was in use at that time by Cyril; but, significantly, they chose not to!

I also enjoy these discussions. Thank you and may God bless you with wisdom and knowledge.

No, it does not imply that Jesus is only God and it does not imply that God began at that time. You deny that she gave birth to God the Word? That statement is false. Jesus was the word at conception and he was the word at birth. This does not imply he originated at that time

We do not claim that Mary was the origin of the second person of the Trinity. He was begotten from the Father, as the creed says.

There are two translations of the council. What does the latin translation say? The latin is just as valid as the greek.

Can you give me a link to the latin or the greek versions of the council?

 

[Des]

rom323:

Please don’t change the Scriptures in a feble attempt to make a point! Elizabeth calls Mary “the mother of my Lord” not the mother of God!

You mean Elizabeth’s Lord was not God?

 

[Anne_Carmel]

This thread has digressed. It is now closed.