Some Questions on Purgatory

[GEddie]

The souls in Purgatory undergo change. Change denotes the succession of time. If they aren’t experiencing physical time, then what kind of time are they experiencing?

I think the closest we can imagine would be the kind of “time” that transpires in dreaming. While a dream may be only a few seconds in duration as measured in relation to the sleeping body, the images in the mind may appear to pertain to a much longer time.

ICXC NIKA

 

[cornbread_r2]

I think the closest we can imagine would be the kind of “time” that transpires in dreaming. While a dream may be only a few seconds in duration as measured in relation to the sleeping body, the images in the mind may appear to pertain to a much longer time.

ICXC NIKA

That doesn’t seem to be a difference in kind.

In any case, as I understand it, when people choose to go to Hell, their choice is irrevocable because, after death, they’re outside time and space and the choice is, in essence, frozen for eternity with no chance of being changed. However, based on what you seem to be proposing, a position outside of time and space – as with those in Purgatory who do experience a change in state – does not necessarily mean that time (of some kind) stands still. As I see it, either Purgatory isn’t outside time and space, or it’s possible that the souls in Hell are able to change their choice after all.

 

[Gorgias]

That doesn’t seem to be a difference in kind.

I think that’s because it’s an analogy rather than a precise definition. Remember, it’s only “the closest we can imagine”. (For much the same reasons, I suspect, the Church used to describe Purgatory as a ‘place’ and our ‘stay’ there as a ‘duration in time’. It makes it easier for us to conceive of it.

In any case, as I understand it, when people choose to go to Hell, their choice is irrevocable because, after death, they’re outside time and space and the choice is, in essence, frozen for eternity with no chance of being changed.

I think I would phrase it a bit differently: it’s not that their choice is permanent because of ‘where’ they are, but because their life is over and they’ve already been judged. Perhaps you’re thinking of another way to think through it – that is, by asking the question “why do people in Hell not repent”? That one’s only (slightly) different.

As I see it, either Purgatory isn’t outside time and space, or it’s possible that the souls in Hell are able to change their choice after all.

Interesting dichotomy! It seems you’re asking “why can souls change by undergoing purgation, but not by breaking free from damnation?”. One approach is simple: because it’s God who’s effecting the purification of those destined for Heaven. That might lead to a predictable retort: “if He’s willing to do it for the heaven-bound, why doesn’t He do it for the damned?”, which has an equally predictable reply: “because the heaven-bound chose Him and the hell-bound chose to reject Him, and He honors those choices.”

Another approach uses the language of Aquinas, and his discussion on angels: having left temporal life, we encounter Christ and see Him without mediation. In that moment, we know – we know those things we doubted and those we failed to believe. In that moment of judgment, there’s no longer any opportunity to ‘change our mind’, because our mind is already made up and there’s no going back. Souls ‘in Purgatory’ aren’t changing their minds, either: God is simply purifying them of their imperfections.

One last thought: perhaps things ‘work’ differently in Purgatory and in Hell because the former isn’t a final destination and the latter is…

 

[Memaw]

Nah… I just don’t think it’s helpful to throw out a bunch of citations and expect that to be sufficient.

“Shut up and read your Bible”?

No… apparently, I’m not the only one that didn’t get it.

More than that.

The Matthew 5 reference is problematic, for a few reasons, not the least being that it talks about ‘punishment’ – which purgatory is not.

2 Maccabees talks about prayer for the dead, not purgatory per se.

My guess would be that you got them in places that explained them, rather than just throwing out the citations.

By golly your guess is wrong! I got them on a Catholic Verse Finder, ( listed under Purgatory!!) From San Juan Catholic Seminars. PO Box 5253 Farmington, NM 87499. I got it at my local Catholic Book store. There were more listed but I just chose a few.
Also I have heard these verses used by other good apologists. Also if you want to quote me, please do so correctly, I DID NOT say SHUT UP and I NEVER would. What do you think “Prayer for the dead” is all about?? If there were NO purgatory there would be NO need for " prayer for the dead." As far as punishment in purgatory, take that up with the Church. It’s NOT Heaven YET. so can’t be all fun and games. If you disagree with Mt 5, then ask a priest. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Gorgias]

By golly your guess is wrong! I got them on a Catholic Verse Finder

Fair enough. However, “finding verses” isn’t the same as engaging in a conversation about theology.

Also I have heard these verses used by other good apologists.

I bet that these ‘good apologists’ explained why the verses were relevant.

Also if you want to quote me, please do so correctly, I DID NOT say SHUT UP

I wasn’t quoting you, I was telling you what my impression of the effect of your simply throwing verses out there felt like. I hope – if I should ever have an apologetics question – that my friends wouldn’t just throw Scripture citations at me, as if that sufficed.

What do you think “Prayer for the dead” is all about?? If there were NO purgatory there would be NO need for " prayer for the dead."

Actually, that’s not what’s going on in 2 Maccabees. ‘Prayer for the dead’ is relevant because it implies that, first of all, there is a heaven (and not just Sheol), and second, that our prayers are efficacious for the dead. Judas certainly wasn’t praying that his friends might be released from Purgatory – he was praying that God might have mercy on them and forgive them their transgressions.

If you disagree with Mt 5, then ask a priest.

I don’t “disagree with Mt 5”… just [the implication of] your take on it.

Blessings,
G.

 

[Memaw]

Fair enough. However, “finding verses” isn’t the same as engaging in a conversation about theology.

(Read posts 6 and 17) Memaw

I bet that these ‘good apologists’ explained why the verses were relevant.

(Guess I’m not a “good” apologist), Memaw

I wasn’t quoting you, I was telling you what my impression of the effect of your simply throwing verses out there felt like. I hope – if I should ever have an apologetics question – that my friends wouldn’t just throw Scripture citations at me, as if that sufficed.

(When you put quotes around it, it feels like a quote!), Memaw

Actually, that’s not what’s going on in 2 Maccabees. ‘Prayer for the dead’ is relevant because it implies that, first of all, there is a heaven (and not just Sheol), and second, that our prayers are efficacious for the dead. Judas certainly wasn’t praying that his friends might be released from Purgatory – he was praying that God might have mercy on them and forgive them their transgressions.

(same difference, the name purgatory was applied to it later, like the name Trinity was applied to Father, Son and Holy Spirit"), Memaw

I don’t “disagree with Mt 5”… just [the implication of] your take on it. Whatever was wrong with MY take on it.

(That’s what it says for goodness sake!) Your good at implications), Memaw

Blessings,
G.

I put my remarks in parentheses because I don’t know how to put them in boxes. Like I said, Purgatory is not fun and games and the Church refers to the Church “Suffering” when speaking of the Holy Souls. Like I said, talk to a priest. I am not the expert you are. God Bless, Memaw

 

[chimo]

I wanted to bring this idea to a “group discussion” here on CAF, as I’ve been discussing with another person the beliefs I hold, and those of the Catholic Church.

What I understand about Purgatory is that it is before Heaven. We are “paying for” the temporal effects of sin; i.e. the analogy of the broken window, in that one is FORGIVEN, but the broken window still remains.

The person I spoke with suggested (An Anglican) suggested that Jesus had already payed the price for our sins, and that belief in this idea could negate from His work: Both in our “forgiveness” and being “saved.”

What I want to ask is a couple of things. Please forgive my ideas here, as they perhaps still lean slightly Protestant.

• Did Jesus’ sacrifice also ‘cover’ this temporal effect of sin?
• Are we being “cleansed” of temporal sin, or being punished for it?
  • To extend from above, could Purgatory be the place where Jesus’ sacrifice for us is made ultimately clear? Could it be that the blood He shed for the forgiveness of our sins “cause suffering” as we are purified?*

*This is analogy I thought of, which convinced me to post.

I don’t know about this broken window business when it concerns about Purgatory. The Good Thief had broken the window many times in his life and there was no Purgatory imputed to his life. He was promised Heaven right away. Perhaps we have to look at Purgatory with a different lens to see why Purgatory is there. If you think about it the Good Thief had he lived on and did things that were contrary to what mercy was given to him would have this Purgatory to deal with. Perhaps Purgatory is dealing more with your own injustices and lack of mercy because you were called to reveal mercy when you had received mercy. It is like this. You receive great mercy at every Mass and Divine Liturgy. But what are you doing in response to that mercy? Are you merciful between your Holy Communions or are you not? If you are not merciful between your visits of Holy Communion than I believe this Purgatory is for you. Perhaps the ill effects of our sins are not a problem if we make a good confession as did the Good Thief. The problem as I see it is those who do make a good confession but do not at times after this confession show this mercy when they are called to do so. Purgatory than is a disciplinarian action that God offers because mercy was not taken seriously for you to change.

 

[JerryZ]

I find the Catholic Church’s doctrine of Purgatory comforting.

Beyond that, my ideas about purgatory are simply the thoughts of a blind person trying to imagine and understand what the color of blue may be like.

I don’t know if Purgatory is a door we pass through, or time, or space.

I have often imagined that Purgatory is the recognizing and facing the harm that we have done to others, either by a lack of action or action itself. I have imagined that Purgatory will not end for me until the ripples of my actions or inactions have come to an end with the saving grace and love of Christ.

:clapping:
I so love your explanation, I had a similar way of explaining it in another thread, however yours is brilliant, “ripples of our actions and or inactions” I am going to steal it from you. :tiphat:

…

 

[HelenRose]

The souls in Purgatory undergo change. Change denotes the succession of time. If they aren’t experiencing physical time, then what kind of time are they experiencing?

God’s time. We have no concept of what that means. We live in the here and now and can not understand. We can only trust that God’s time is just.

 

[fred_conty]

:clapping:
I so love your explanation, I had a similar way of explaining it in another thread, however yours is brilliant, “ripples of our actions and or inactions” I am going to steal it from you. :tiphat:

…

If you do that then your purgatory will be longer.

 

[fred_conty]

I think cornbread has an interesting point. Those in purgatory do not have to be there until the end of time, which Mary said about a 16 year old in her Fatima appearance.

I believe there is nothing contrary to accepting some kind of time in purgatory. For the more people pray for someone in purgatory, it seems the shorter their duration.
And in addition, once they pay in suffering for their sins, then they are released into heaven.

In hell it is quite different…the story has ended for them permanently.

Another interesting related thought is that devils possess people…in time, even tho they may be pure spirits in hell outside of time, and carry out a succession of events inside of time.

There is also a theological opinion that purgatory will end with the end of the world. But there is also another theological opinion that purgatory may go on after the end of the world. Both of these opinions seem to indicate a time element about purgatory.

For all this to happen, there must be some kind of time in purgatory. And maybe it might be that this time corresponds in some similar fashion to that of creation.

 

[Crusaderbear]

I find the Catholic Church’s doctrine of Purgatory comforting.

Beyond that, my ideas about purgatory are simply the thoughts of a blind person trying to imagine and understand what the color of blue may be like.

I don’t know if Purgatory is a door we pass through, or time, or space.

I have often imagined that Purgatory is the recognizing and facing the harm that we have done to others, either by a lack of action or action itself. I have imagined that Purgatory will not end for me until the ripples of my actions or inactions have come to an end with the saving grace and love of Christ.

THAT is an elegant explanation! I like it! God Bless!

 

[Memaw]

THAT is an elegant explanation! I like it! God Bless!

Amen, another of God’s beautiful Mysteries!! God Bless, Memaw