He had sex with a non-consenting “slave”. The fact that it doesn’t bother you that he owned slaves is twisted enough; the fact that you don’t realize that having sex with a person who has no say in the matter is rape is sad given the fact that you are a woman yourself.http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif
Salaam/ Peace
lol . where i said he raped anyone ? Jesus (p) taught slept with wife is a sin ?
There is no record of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) opposing polygamy. If he did so, it would have meant that the condemned the practice of the prophets before him. There are a number of examples of polygamous marriages among the prophets recorded in the Torah. Prophet Abraham had two wives, according to Genesis 16:13:** “So after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.”** So Prophet David, according to the first book of Samuel 27:3, “And David dwelt with Achish at Gat, he and his men, every man with his household, and David with his two wives, Ahin’o-am of Jezreel, and Abigail of Carmel, Nabal’s widow.”What is the biblical teaching on polygamy? I do know that it was practiced in the Old Testament (solomon- 700 wives and 300 concubines). Is there anything about that in the New Testament or in Church documents?
Surely you are smart enough to know this is not what the Christian faith nor the Catholic Church teaches? Its abit like asking Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to interpret the Qu’ran.According to Father Eugene Hillman, “Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy.” He further stressed the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to Graeco-Roman culture which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution.
I have called a Muslim a liar for saying Jesus allowed polygamy in the Bible. She cannot plead ignorant as it has been told to her that Jesus never did.There is no record of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) opposing polygamy. If he did so, it would have meant that the condemned the practice of the prophets before him. There are a number of examples of polygamous marriages among the prophets recorded in the Torah. Prophet Abraham had two wives, according to Genesis 16:13:** “So after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.”** So Prophet David, according to the first book of Samuel 27:3, “And David dwelt with Achish at Gat, he and his men, every man with his household, and David with his two wives, Ahin’o-am of Jezreel, and Abigail of Carmel, Nabal’s widow.”
In 1st Kings 11:3, Solomon is said to have “…had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.” Solomon’s son, Rehobo’am, also had a number of wives, according to 2nd Chronicles 11:21,** “Rehobo’am loved Ma’acah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and concubines (he took eighteen wives and sixty concubines, and had twenty-eight sons and sixty daughters).”**
In fact, the Torah even specified laws regarding the division of inheritance in polygamous circumstances. In Deuteronomy 21:15-16, the law states: “15 If a man has two wives, the one loved and the other disliked, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the disliked, and if the first-born son is hers that is disliked, 16then on the day when he assigns his possessions as an inheritance to his sons, he may not treat the son of the loved as the first-born in preference to the son of the disliked, who is the first-born.”
The only restriction on polygamy was the ban on taking a wife’s sister as a rival wife in Leviticus 18:18, “And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is yet alive.” The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives as was the practice of Prophet Jacob.
According to Father Eugene Hillman, “Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy.” He further stressed the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to Graeco-Roman culture which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution.
Islam limited polygamy to a maximum of four wives at one time and stipulated the maintenance of justice as a basic condition for polygamy. In Chapter an-Nisaa (4):3, God states:
} فَانْكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُمْ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً … {
“Marry of the women that please you two, three or four. But if you fear that you will not be able to deal justly, then [marry only] one …”
And so, Muslims follow Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in not opposing polygamy.
Ishmael is not cursed by God. He is blessed by him. By using your logic, I can say that Adam & Eve – a monogamous couple, caused the downfall of the entire human race.I have called a Muslim a liar for saying Jesus allowed polygamy in the Bible. She cannot plead ignorant as it has been told to her that Jesus never did.
I don’t call you a liar yet because you have not explicitly said Jesus allowed polygamy.
The fact of the matter there is nowhere where Jesus / God allowed polygamy marriages. The examples you quoted about Bibles characters having multiple wives were their own doings. These were not sanctioned, instructed or commanded by God, like how Allah commanded Mohammad to marry another wives. In fact to the opposite. All products of marriages with multiple wives were not blessed.
Examples of those you quoted:
Abraham having sex with slave Hagar. Consequence –
Enmity between Sarai and Hagar.
16:4 He went to Hagar and she conceived. And once she knew she had conceived, her mistress counted for nothing in her eyes.
Ishmael, the cursed son.
16;12 A wild donkey of a man he will be, his hand against every man, and every man’s hand against him, living his life in defiance of all his kinsmen.
Mosaic Law in Deut 12:15-16 can hardly be a divine law. In any case common sense tells us how unjust this law was that an inheritance is based on whom you like or dislike; very much contradicting the law of love and justice as taught by Jesus.
David and Solomon – the curse was the fracture that led to the demise of the Kingdom of David’s dynasty all caused by sons / daughters from their many wives.
The reason why polygamy was not blessed because it was not the plan of God for a man to marry more than one wife, period. Jesus came and confirmed that.
As for you quoting a heretic priest is simply rude. We are being reprimanded regularly for quoting heretic Muslims. It’s hard to understand what happen in a forum where obviously we cannot stoop to your level to counter your argument.
no . I answered about that earlier . Some non-Muslims attack Islam as if there were no war , killing ,slavery , concubines , polygamy before Muhammed (p). They forgot that their own holy books allowed all these. Islam did not introduce any of these.Your defense of Islam seems to be, “but your people are evil too”.
yap . I can understand non-Muslims dont respect Muhammed (p) as a Prophet . What I can’t understand is why it’s so difficult for some of them to write his full name ? Sometimes I am afraid I may fall in to devil’s trap & may start hating people of the holy book .… muslims have not heared such an attempt to write a balanced post on islam for ages on this forum. .
http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif
Salaam/ Peace
no . I answered about that earlier . Some non-Muslims attack Islam as if there were no war , killing ,slavery , concubines , polygamy before Muhammed (p). They forgot that their own holy books allowed all these. Islam did not introduce any of these.
QUOTE]
Of course all Christians understand that the Old T figures did in fact commit sins and were far from perfect. Not only did Muhammed, (a man who **claims ** to have been Allah’s prophet) not condemn the sins you listed, he participated in all of them. Were he truely a man of God he would have condemned them harshly and of course not actually routinely do them. To defend Muhammed by saying that other people did it to is not a defnese of Muhammed but rather a condemnation of the others. A proper defense would be “Muhammed had no sex slaves” not “Sure he had them, but so did other people”. Of course, there’s too much evidence to prove that he did in fact own slaves and rape them (all sex with a person who has no right to refuse is rape) to deny this fact.
of course, there are a lots of “if” but is it God who planned them? it is like talking of complete predestination. Is it God who told Sarah to give hagar to Abraham? or was it Sarah’s deed because she didn’t have trust or patience?If Jacob didn’t marry 4 wives, we wouldn’t have had the 12 tribes of Israel. Clearly something that was in God’s plan.
I agree with you inJESUS. The fruit of Sarai (at that time her name was Sarai) asking Abram to have intercourse with the slave girl – causing Hagar to look at Sarai with disdained. This in turn caused argument between Sarai and Abram. In other word, a broken relationship. Thus hardly a blessing.of course, there are a lots of “if” but is it God who planned them? it is like talking of complete predestination. Is it God who told Sarah to give hagar to Abraham? or was it Sarah’s deed because she didn’t have trust or patience?
it is like the Genesis verse talking about Hebrew slave men selling their daughters . Can one say that this verse means sellling daughters is ok ? There were realities back then and God dealt with them with laws to better the situations and regulate them but we do not believe that God’s plan was what was happening. The only difference is that God deals with situations and improves them, we call it the history of God with His people.Devirm 21:15 If a man have two wives, the one beloved, and the other hated, and they have borne him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the first-born son be hers that was hated;
I agree with your view on how one interprets the BIble. But unlike slavery, polygamy is not a clear violation of human rights, although it may become so in practice. There is an instance in the talmud (one) of a rabbi marrying 300 wives. By today’s standards, that may seem immoral (insane?). However, we learn that he did so because there was a famine in the land and he had plenty of food (thanks to Temple Tithes). wives of the Kohane were entiteld to this food as well. Jerusalem Talmud, Yevamot 4:12.it is like the Genesis verse talking about Hebrew slave men selling their daughters . Can one say that this verse means sellling daughters is ok ? There were realities back then and God dealt with them with laws to better the situations and regulate them but we do not believe that God’s plan was what was happening. The only difference is that God deals with situations and improves them, we call it the history of God with His people.
of course no one is denying what happened and polygamy happened howver we do not believe it was the original plan of God just because it is in the Bible which exposes its problems as well. Of course we interpret it in light of Jesus’ teachings, but our response has to do with Muslims’ erroneous interpretation of the Bible.I agree with your view on how one interprets the BIble. But unlike slavery, polygamy is not a clear violation of human rights, although it may become so in practice. There is an instance in the talmud (one) of a rabbi marrying 300 wives. By today’s standards, that may seem immoral (insane?). However, we learn that he did so because there was a famine in the land and he had plenty of food (thanks to Temple Tithes). wives of the Kohane were entiteld to this food as well. Jerusalem Talmud, Yevamot 4:12.
I agree with you, when Jesus said:howver we do not believe it was the original plan of God just because it is in the Bible which exposes its problems as well.
Exactly, Sam_777. And you know what Jesus said about lust in our hearts!I agree with you, when Jesus said:
" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." (Matthew 19:8).
He didn’t say God permitted, which to me it means a lot, therefore, I would assume that all those polygamies in the world were/are because of our lusty hearts.
So what you are saying here is to disregard all Christian beliefs which teaches us that the God of Salvation is loving, kind and selfless in ways that He gave His Son to give us life in exchange for a god you say is really a terrorist who wants everybody to rot in hell?This then would be my suggestion to you → Think of God as being the Greatest Terrorist there is in the entire Universe.
There are 99 names belonging to Allah which refers to His many attributes and of them, here are a few which adequately describes God as being the Greatest Terrorist there is.
**AL-JABBÂR – the Compeller
AL-MUDHILL – The Humiliator
AL-MUMÎT – The Causer of death
AL- MUNTAQIM – The Lord of Retribution, The Avenger**
Once you have put this picture of God in your mind, then it becomes very easy for you to accept all of the other attributes that He has and if you wish to learn a bit more about the other attributes of God, kindly go here.
After you have removed these “blinkers” that you are wearing and have fairly understood the attributes of Allah, then God-willing, you might begin to see the moral character of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in a very different light i.e. the way Muslims see him.
If this is the case, can muslims actually do that? Are their any muslim martyrs that died trying to help a weak person by not necessarily killing another individual who is other than the oppressed.Salaam/ Peace
http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif
Jihad does not mean killing any innocent non-Muslims . But Islam also does not teach us to turn other cheek . It will encourage the sinner to do more crimes. We must help those who are oppressed.
God says in holy Quran : And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is:
“Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help.”
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #75)