Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Getting back to the point: the Ten Commandments – that is, the “ten words”, according to the Bible – are part of a covenant. This part is what Jesus was referencing in Matthew 4:4… not all of the Bible.

No, Jesus, in Matthew 4:4 is referencing Deuteronomy 8:3 not the 10 Commandments.

And, what is Deut 8:3 talking about? Following the commandments.

 

[Cathoholic]

1st CORINTHIANS 11:23-30 23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

.

Medwigel.

What if “THIS” bread that Jesus speaks of is . . . ACTUALLY Him?

AND what if in partaking of “THIS CUP” is “the Covenant in my (Jesus) blood”.

Yes there is “symbolism” here (but not MERE symbolism).

CCC 1149a The great religions of mankind witness, often impressively, to this cosmic and symbolic meaning of religious rites. . . .

Yes there is “symbolism” here in the Sacraments including the Eucharist but again . . . NEVER . . . MERE symbolism.

CCC 1152 Sacramental signs. Since Pentecost, it is through the sacramental signs of his Church that the Holy Spirit carries on the work of sanctification. The sacraments of the Church do not abolish but purify and integrate all the richness of the signs and symbols of the cosmos and of social life. Further, they fulfill the types and figures of the Old Covenant, signify and make actively present the salvation wrought by Christ, and prefigure and anticipate the glory of heaven.

.

I understand that as a Baptist you don’t affirm these things. I get that.

But can you for a moment understand that as a Catholic Christian . . . I DO affirm the REAL body AND blood of Jesus in the Eucharist?

(If you can get that, If you can understand what WE as Catholics affirm, I think you will be able to see WHY as a Catholic one can “just” receive Jesus under only “one” species.)

.

By the way medwigel, I would like you to go into MORE detail on WHY you alluded to Matthew 4:4 as teaching what I saw as an implication of sola Scriptura.

Painting the Eucharist with Precious Blood Liturgy and Sacraments

Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3) Jesus Himself said that we should not live by man’s word/bread but only from God’s Word which is…The BIBLE

(I think Matthew 4:4 REFUTES sola Scriptura and at least implicitly points to exactly what we are discussing regarding 1st Corinthians 11. But I will wait on unpacking that until we can go deeper in the above issues that I have raised).

 

[medwigel]

I understand that as a Baptist you don’t affirm these things. I get that.

I am not a Baptist actually

 

[Cathoholic]

I am not a Baptist actually

Apologies. My mistake.

From whatever your perspective, let’s go on though please.

 

[medwigel]

CCC 1152 Sacramental signs. Since Pentecost, it is through the sacramental signs of his Church that the Holy Spirit carries on the work of sanctification. The sacraments of the Church do not abolish but purify and integrate all the richness of the signs and symbols of the cosmos and of social life. Further, they fulfill the types and figures of the Old Covenant, signify and make actively present the salvation wrought by Christ, and prefigure and anticipate the glory of heaven.

This does not tell me why communion is not performed as it’s laid out in the Bible.

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . . .

This does not tell me why communion is not performed as it’s laid out in the Bible.

That’s right.

It does not (yet).

At this point, I am just trying to help you understand the Catholic perspective (not necessarily believe it, just “understand” it).

Later I will try to show you WHY Catholics may receive only one "specie"of the Eucharist.

But not yet.

 

[medwigel]

(I think Matthew 4:4 REFUTES sola Scriptura and at least implicitly points to exactly what we are discussing regarding 1st Corinthians 11. But I will wait on unpacking that until we can go deeper in the above issues that I have raised).

1 Timothy 3:16 refers to all SCRIPTURE, not man’s words, is given to us by God for “teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living”
2 Peter 1:19-21 confirms that the words given to us by the prophets comes from inspiration from the Holy Sprit and he tell us we would do well to pay attention to those words.

In both verses God is pointing us to the scripture to know His will for our life NOT to man.

 

[Cathoholic]

Just for Catholics here (who may be lurkers and not usual CAF participants) I just want to re-affirm the Sacraments are NOT MERELY symbolic.

As we are discussing the Eucharist here, I will post a CCC teaching to help clarify.

.

CCC 1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

.

(emphasis mine)

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . . .

1 Timothy 3:16 refers to all SCRIPTURE, not man’s words

I understand what you are trying to say here medwigel.

And I will go into more detail on these things too.

But for now, I just want to make sure you have (part of) the Catholic perspective down on WHY we may receive only “one species” of the Eucharist.

As per here . . . .

But can you for a moment understand that as a Catholic Christian . . . I DO affirm the REAL body AND blood of Jesus in the Eucharist?
.
(If you can get that, If you can understand what WE as Catholics affirm, I think you will be able to see WHY as a Catholic one can “just” receive Jesus under only “one” species.)

 

[medwigel]

But for now, I just want to make sure you have (part of) the Catholic perspective down on WHY we may receive only “one species” of the Eucharist.

Nope, I still don’t
What you have given me continues to talk about the “body and blood”- 2 separate things. I still don’t see where it says taking 1 can fulfill both.
And obviously this concept of taking 1 to represent both is not even practiced/agreed upon by everyone in the Catholic church because when I was younger we always received both at St Ignatius of Loyola church.
So why the variation amongst churches and/or parishes?

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . . .

What you have given me continues to talk about the “body and blood”- 2 separate things. I still don’t see where it says taking 1 can fulfill both.

You don’t need to for now.

All that I am saying is that IF a Catholic is (or at least THINKS he is) receiving the body AND the blood via x, y, or z. . . . .

. . . can you see that the Catholic (at least) THINKS he is receiving the body AND blood via x, y, or z?

(I will get to the Biblical ideas later. For now, I just want you to understand OUR perspective in PRINCIPLE. That’s all.)

 

[medwigel]

You don’t need to for now.

All that I am saying is that IF a Catholic is (or at least THINKS he is) receiving the body AND the blood via x, y, or z. . . . .

. . . can you see that the Catholic (at least) THINKS he is receiving the body AND blood via x, y, or z?

They may “think” that, but could it be they think that because they have been taught wrong?
And that’s my issue, teaching that the bread alone suffices as Christ Body and Blood is wrong teaching because the source from which the sacrament was created shows the consumption of bread AND wine.
I guess I also have a tough time with this concept because it was never taught to me in catechism class when I was young. I was taught and received the bread AND wine.

 

[Cathoholic]

1st CORINTHIANS 11:23-30 23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

medwigel . . . .

that’s my issue, teaching that the bread alone suffices as Christ Body and Blood is wrong teaching

OK.

Think of the Eucharist in terms of the verse you brought up—1st Corinthians 11.

First of all, this is not mere symbolism.

It IS Christ’s body.

This is my body

This is the same way it was for “the cup” . . .

In the same way also the cup

Then St. Paul talks about whoever eats and/or drinks “unworthily” . . . .

. . . will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

1st CORINTHIANS 11:27 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

And notice what St. Paul DOESN’T say . . . .

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 11:27 (but a phantom verse) 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning a mere symbol of the Lord.

St. Paul ALSO tells us we need to do what Catholics call “an examination of conscience” before approaching the Eucharist.

1st CORINTHIANS 11:28 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

Now in the context of the “body of the Lord”, St. Paul tells us . . . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 11:27, 29a 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. . . . . 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body . . . .

So St. Paul is about to tell us we do not approach the Eucharist in a state of unbelief. We must DISCERN the body and this “BODY” is in the context of the “BODY” of the Lord Jesus.

1st CORINTHIANS 11:29a 29a For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body . . . .

What?

What is St. Paul going to warn us of here?

1st CORINTHIANS 11:29 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

 

[Cathoholic]

If you approach the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin or “unworthily”, or if you approach the Eucharist in a state of unbelief or “without discerning the body” what happens?

Well if this was mere symbolism probably nothing. But this is NOT mere symbolism.

It is serious business.

1st CORINTHIANS 11:29 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

If this guy approaches the Eucharist in a state of “unworthiness” or unbelief he . . .

. . . . he eats and drinks . . . . “judgment” or as the King James versions says . . . “DAMNATION” upon himself!

This is not the language of mere symbolism.

St. Paul CONTINUES . . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 11:30 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Does St. Paul REALLY THINK that if you approach the Eucharist in a state of “unworthiness” or if you have problems with “discerning the body of the Lord” people can risk weakness, illness, and even death!??

That’s EXACTLY what St. Paul is warning us of.

1st CORINTHIANS 11:30 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

1st CORINTHIANS 11:23-30 23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Considering all this, I want you to go back to verse 27 for a moment.

 

[Cathoholic]

1st CORINTHIANS 11:27 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread OR drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body AND blood of the Lord.

Now notice what St. Paul DOESN’T say . . . .

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 11:27 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread AND drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

What did St. Paul teach in 1st Corinthians 11:27?

That whoever, therefore, eats the bread in an unworthy manner will be guilty of
profaning the body AND blood of the Lord.

OR whoever, therefore, drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of
profaning the body AND blood of the Lord.

The ONLY way you could be guilty of profaning the body AND blood of the Lord by unworthily partaking of the bread (that is ONE species), is if when partaking of the bread, you received the body AND blood of the Lord!

The same is just as true for the blood.

When we receive the “bread” (of Life), we receive the body AND BLOOD (soul and Divinity as well) of Jesus.

Likewise if we “just” receive of “the cup”.

Why?

Because St. Paul says so.

 

[medwigel]

1st CORINTHIANS 11:27 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread OR drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body AND blood of the Lord.

I take this to mean if you take either one of this in an unworthy way, meaning you take the bread because you are hungry but reverence the wine, or you reverence the bread and just take the wine to get drunk. If you look at the verses that prelude the text, this is what the Corinthian church was doing- they were coming to the communion feast with the wrong motive. They would eat before everyone had gathered because they were hungry, or there were some who would come to get drunk off the wine. So that is why he made the “OR” distinction. If you come to satisfy your physical hunger (bread) or to satisfy your lust for drink (wine) then you will be guilty of profaning both body and blood.

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . .

they were coming to the communion feast with the wrong motive

You are ignoring what the “communion feast” is.

And you are ignoring that if you profane “the bread” you ARE profaning the body AND blood of the Lord.

(Notice if you receive ONLY one species, the “bread” you profane the body AND blood of the Lord.
Which means if you receive ONLY “the bread”, you ARE receiving BOTH the body AND blood of the Lord).

 

[medwigel]

Does St. Paul REALLY THINK that if you approach the Eucharist in a state of “unworthiness” or if you have problems with “discerning the body of the Lord” people can risk weakness, illness, and even death!??

That’s EXACTLY what St. Paul is warning us of.

Yay, something we agree on
We read and emphasize this scripture whenever we take communion together at my church.

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . . .

Yay, something we agree on

Well there you go medwigel!

I’ll try to post more tomorrow.

I may “hang around” on my android longer, but I will not be at my computer so I may not post for a day or so.

We will continue our discussion though (and I may add a small addition before then too).

 

[medwigel]

1st CORINTHIANS 11:27 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread OR drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body AND blood of the Lord.

Also, consider if we use your assumption that you can take one to cover both because it says “or”, then why not just take the cup in place of the bread? If it’s an “or” statement it means either one can be used to satisfy the requirement.

Ok…until next time.