Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[medwigel]

Without the proper criterion and guidance of the holy spirit a dogmatic infallible teaching is not made.

So if the inspiration or teaching is from the Holy Spirit, then you should be able to corroborate that teaching or dogma with the scripture, there by making the Bible the ultimate and final authority.

The reason why the Bible must be the ultimate authority is because men are ALL fallible. Our leaders can make the wrong decisions or spread the wrong teaching, thinking that they are advancing to cause of Christ. Shoot, when I was growing up it was widely accepted, believed and taught for centuries that Mary Magdalene was a repentant prostitute and she was to be revered for how she was able to change her life around; so if she could change they there was hope for the rest of us. But come to find out, there is NO WHERE in the Bible where it ever said that she was a prostitute!! I felt so lied too when I learned this and became very disillusioned. Why would the church inculcate and teach such a blatant lie? This lie was part of the Catholic tradition! She was viewed as the patroness of wayward women, yet she was never a wayward woman herself.
So how can you tell when the teaching is wrong, or how can you stop the wrong teaching in the first place? - you go to the Bible, not man, as the source of God’s will. If you rely on mans word as some point you will be mislead.

 

[medwigel]

I’m not sure what you meant by “It was the Church who looked down on these women because they sinned and stripped them of their parental rights”. Can you be a little more specific?

the Church did not respect their rights as mothers because they were “fallen” women. So their babies were sold without their permission or though coercion (what were they supposed to do when the Church, who is viewed as having supreme authority over you, tells you to sign a paper to relinquish the rights to your child).
These women were vulnerable mothers, but they were not deemed worthy to be mothers by the Church and had their rights terminated.
Another example of how their humanity was taken away was the practice of burying the women and their babies in unmarked graves. These women were people, with loved ones, and they deserved a proper burial that acknowledged their life. Why were they not worthy enough for a marked grave? Wouldn’t you want to know where your daughter or sister or mother was buried? Aren’t we all “worthy” of that, because apparently these women were not.

 

[Gab123]

Sometimes some non-Catholics attempt to see Matthew 4:4 as teaching sola Scriptura.

Well the fact that the devil himself was quoting Scriptures to Jesus just shows how Sola Scriptura is behind the division, chaos and contradiction in Protestant an aevangelical Christianity. There’s a reason why Jesus founded a Church to teach with authority in His name throughout the ages. The Church was teaching with authority before the New a Testament was even written.

 

[medwigel]

Well the fact that the devil himself was quoting Scrioture to Jesus just shows how Sola Scriptura is behind the division,

Huh? How does satan quoting scripture lead to division?

 

[Gab123]

Huh? How does satan quoting scripture lead to division?

It shows that the devil knows the Scriptures inside ourt, and he will use the Scriptures to mislead. So thank God that Jesus established a Church with authority to teach in His name and promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church throughout the ages. When individuals come along and use the Scriptures against the teachings of the Church it means that they are not being guided by the Holy Spirit, but a different spirit; a spirit of division and contradiction. Thus the dangers of listening to self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters, especially when they claim they are wiser than the Church.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Are you so certain? Isn’t it described, in places in Scripture, as “the breaking of the bread”? If so – that is, if it’s described in a way that doesn’t include the explicit mention of the wine – then how can you assert that it explicitly calls for consumption of both elements?

Please show me where it speaks of breaking the bread without then mentioning the wine.

No problems:
Acts 2:42:

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Luke 24:30-31:

And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight.

You’re welcome.

 

[jlhargus]

Med: 1 Timothy 3:16 refers to all SCRIPTURE, not man’s words, is given to us by God for “teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living”
2 Peter 1:19-21 confirms that the words given to us by the prophets comes from inspiration from the Holy Sprit and he tell us we would do well to pay attention to those words.

In both verses God is pointing us to the scripture to know His will for our life NOT to man.
[/quote]

[2Tm3:10 but thou has fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.]

2Tm4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Who decides doctrine? Who reproves? Who corrects? Who instructs in righteousness that the man of God may be furnished unto all good works. Answer, Scripture, which is profitable, but not scripture alone.

We see scripture alone is profitable, for Satan, in scattering people of faith into thousands of contentious denominations. Christ SENT and gave us a teaching authority to teach the whole world till the end, Mt28-16-20. The Church the pillar and ground of the Truth, 1Tm3:15. Paul is instructing Timothy to use his (magisterial) teaching authority along with both oral Tradition learned, as well as scripture.

 

[medwigel]

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Luke 24:30-31:

And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight.

Now why are you trying to bamboozle the people? You know good and well that the bread must be consecrated as His body and the wine must be consecrated a His blood in order for it to be communion. In these 2 verses they are just having dinner together and in Luke Jesus is saying grace before He eats (this can be used as the basis for saying grace before a meal perhaps). People will even use the term of “let’s break bread together” to signify sharing a meal together, no for receiving communion. Anytime communion is demonstrated or taught it involves the body and the blood of Christ.

Now you’re welcome

 

[medwigel]

We see scripture alone is profitable, for Satan, in scattering people of faith into thousands of contentious denominations.

You still fail to prove this point. How has satan used scripture to scatter people? I say it borders on hearsay when you say using God’s Word is profitable for satan!! I daresay satan has gotten into the heart of many leaders over the years and they then preached false doctrine that was not supported by the Bible, as in what I pointed out before of the Church branding Mary Magdalene as a prostitute and creating a whole “tradition” based on this lie. It is the Church without scripture that misleads people, no the other way around.
It is man without the sole reliance on scripture that leads to divisions in Christ. Christ is the head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23-24) and the Church is subject to the Word (John 1:1 tell us that the Word is God)
Does satan know the Word? Absolutely he knows the Word, how else could he go against it. But even though satan is the father of lies he is forced to quote the truth of the scripture; all creation (including satan who was created by God) must acknowledge the truth that is Christ Jesus (Romans 14:11) whether they want to accept it or not.

 

[Gorgias]

Now why are you trying to bamboozle the people?

Not at all. You wanted to see where the ‘bread’ was mentioned without any mention of the ‘wine’.

You know good and well that the bread must be consecrated as His body and the wine must be consecrated a His blood in order for it to be communion.

Agreed. However, that’s not the topic of discussion. What’s in play is your (mistaken) notion that both species must be consumed by (all?) those taking part in the Eucharist.

In these 2 verses they are just having dinner together and in Luke Jesus is saying grace before He eats (this can be used as the basis for saying grace before a meal perhaps).

So… you’re saying that the Emmaus story is about two guys who didn’t recognize Jesus all day long, but finally understood who He was by the way He said grace?!?


No… after all, the reference to “saying the blessing” that we find in the Mass is the Jewish blessing – which we pray earlier in the Mass, as the species are brought to the altar: “Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation…”. It wasn’t this that got their attention – it was the fact that He consecrated the species and confected the Eucharist!

People will even use the term of “let’s break bread together” to signify sharing a meal together, no for receiving communion.

Gee… do you think, just maybe, that this is because they found that expression in the Bible, and not the other way around?

Anytime communion is demonstrated or taught it involves the body and the blood of Christ.

Agreed… but again, you’re moving the goalposts. You weren’t making an assertion about consecration, but rather, about consumption.

 

[medwigel]

Not at all. You wanted to see where the ‘bread’ was mentioned without any mention of the ‘wine’.

No, I want you to show me were COMMUNION is done or taught in the Bible with just bread and not wine.
Jesus praying over bread DOES NOT constitute communion. If praying over bread = communion, then Jesus had communion when He prayed over the 5 loaves and 2 fishes.

So to clarify, I assert that there is no where in the Bible where you find COMMUNION done with just the bread; it is always done with the consumption of the body and blood. Therefore taking the bread by itself does not count according to the Bible.

 

[PJM]

‘Man shall not live by bread alone,

but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Sometimes some non-Catholics attempt to see Matthew 4:4 as teaching sola Scriptura.

Are there are any non-Catholics here that think this, that would like to posit WHY?

I think discussing that issue might be a good thing.

God bless.

Cathoholic

If everyone rightly understand that this is literal {yes I know that is the premise for the incorrect understanding girding many christian beliefs}, but they miss the significance of the word “ALL”.

IF thy were to grasp its FULL meaning there would be only Catholics

Patrick

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Not at all. You wanted to see where the ‘bread’ was mentioned without any mention of the ‘wine’.

No, I want you to show me were COMMUNION is done or taught in the Bible with just bread and not wine.

And that’s precisely what I demonstrated to you.

Jesus praying over bread DOES NOT constitute communion.

Aah… we’re back to that, again? So… they didn’t recognize Him as He walked and talked with Him… but the minute He “prayed over bread”, they recognized Him? Nice eisegesis. Keep telling yourself that.

If that’s the best you’ve got, then you’ve reduced the Emmaus story to something less than the “miraculous Easter day appearance” that it was.

So to clarify, I assert that there is no where in the Bible where you find COMMUNION done with just the bread; it is always done with the consumption of the body and blood.

So… our disagreement is rooted in what ‘communion’ is? Not surprising. So… what the apostles did – as I demonstrated in Acts – wasn’t ‘communion’? It was just ‘dinner’? Are you really certain that you want to hang your hat on the interpretation that says that Acts is merely saying that the early Church “dedicated themselves to dinner”?

 

[medwigel]

Are you really certain that you want to hang your hat on the interpretation that says that Acts is merely saying that the early Church “dedicated themselves to dinner”?

Yup. You need to pay attention to the punctuation in the text. Breaking of bread is a form of fellowship.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Are you really certain that you want to hang your hat on the interpretation that says that Acts is merely saying that the early Church “dedicated themselves to dinner”?

Yup. You need to pay attention to the punctuation in the text. Breaking of bread is a form of fellowship.

With all due respect, that’s the advice I would give you:

They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.

See where the translators found fit to place a comma? “The breaking of the bread” – if it were, as you say, simply fellowship – would be part of “the communal life”. But, with the comma in place, we see that “the breaking of the bread” fits more with prayers than communal life. Hmm… is the confection of the Eucharist more like prayer, or more like community life…? Hmm…

 

[jlhargus]

You still fail to prove this point. How has satan used scripture to scatter people? I say it borders on hearsay when you say using God’s Word is profitable for satan!!

So you agree I did prove my other point scripture does not teach “scripture alone”?

If not Satan scattering, who then has brought about that scattering of people of faith into thousands of contradicting denominations, claiming scripture alone? There are thousands of denominations, which claim to hold scripture alone. Yet they can’t agree but contradict one another and the scriptures too.

Scripture alone is used to justify every wind of doctrine the mind of man can conceive. Shouldn’t scripture alone settle contradictions, instead of being the source for the justification of a tower of babel and disunity? So how can scripture alone be the only authority, if thousands disagree on what it teaches? Isn’t that a contradiction? How many faith groups have been divided by the scripture alone? Thousands, it’s Satan’s playground to scatter people of faith. How many have been united using scripture alone? None.

 

[jlhargus]

Christ is the head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23-24) and the Church is subject to the Word (John 1:1 tell us that the Word is God)

Yes Christ is head of the Church. He appointed a first minister giving that first minister the keys to the kingdom. The Word said you are Rock and upon this rock I will build my church, I will give you (singular) the keys of the kingdom and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Word also said to St Rock I have prayed for you (singular) that your faith (singular) fail not, when converted strengthen the brethren, feed my sheep, feed my lambs.

 

[medwigel]

If not Satan scattering, who then has brought about that scattering of people of faith into thousands of contradicting denominations, claiming scripture alone? There are thousands of denominations, which claim to hold scripture alone. Yet they can’t agree but contradict one another and the scriptures too.

My friend, the scripture will always be true, and since it’s immutable and infallible it is the final authority. The division you speak of comes from people, including those in the Catholic church, trying to claim authority above scripture. There is another who tried to exert his authority over God as well…
The contradictions come when the teachings of the church don’t match what the Word says. God’s Word never divides us. How can following God’s Word, which is love, be used and result in bad? If you believe in that kind of god then you do not serve a just god and we are certainly NOT talking about the same person.
God has nothing to do with how the devil perverts the Word, and certainly the following of God’s Word does NOT lead the satan perverting His Word!
As long as people rely on human doctrine and tradition they then take God out of the equation and without God, satan can get a foothold.

 

[medwigel]

I will give you (singular) the keys of the kingdom and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And then in Matthew 18:18-20 Jesus tell everyone that they too have the power to bind and loose things in heaven and on earth.
This power was not just given to Peter, it’s given to all believers.

 

[medwigel]

He appointed a first minister giving that first minister the keys to the kingdom

The desired structure of the church can be found in Ephesians 4:11-16
These are gifts given to the church from Christ: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
He didn’t appoint just one position, Jesus gifted us with a 5 fold ministry to keep us on the right path.