Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[medwigel]

I daresay satan has gotten into the heart of many leaders over the years and they then preached false doctrine that was not supported by the Bible, as in what I pointed out before of the Church branding Mary Magdalene as a prostitute and creating a whole “tradition” based on this lie. It is the Church without scripture that misleads people, no the other way around.

You have yet to address this point.

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel. You said . . . .

As long as people rely on human doctrine and tradition they then take God out of the equation and without God, satan can get a foothold.

Actually I agree with this statement (looks like we have MORE in common).

I agree with this concerning “relying” on mere human traditions (“human doctrine and tradition”).

Then they take God out of the equation (“then take God out of the equation”).

We also talked here on this thread about how St. Paul mentioned . . .

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whoever, therefore, eats the bread in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body AND blood of the Lord

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This is NOT profaning a mere SYMBOL of the body AND blood of the Lord.

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This being said, and keeping all this in mind, I want to look at Matthew 4:4 and the impossibility of this passage asserting sola Scriptura.

But before we go to Matthew 4:4, I also want us to keep in mind St. John’s admonition about how the mere printed page could never contain wholly Jesus’ workings.

(And if that is true, how much less can the printed page contain Jesus HIMSELF as True God and true man?)

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JOHN 21:24-25 24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

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Now let’s look at Matthew 4:4 again . . . .

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MATTHEW 4:3-4 3 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

(emphasis mine)

Notice what Jesus tells us we ARE to live by.

Jesus tells us through Sacred Scripture we are to live by EVERY WORD that proceeds forth from the mouth of God!

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EVERY WORD is to make up our “diet”.

HOW can we possibly get “EVERY WORD” from the printed page?

the world itself could not contain the books that would be written

We can’t!

Well HOW can we POSSIBLY RECEIVE EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God . . . . without . . . . RECEIVING GOD Himself?

We can’t.

The ONLY WAY we can receive EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God . . . . is IF we RECEIVE GOD HIMSELF!

And Jesus warns us about this in the context of . . . . “BREAD” in a natural sense (command these stones to become loaves of bread).

And tells us we cannot live by “bread” alone in this natural sense.

But we ARE to receive EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God (The Eucharist profaned is profaning . . . the body AND blood of the Lord!)

Matthew 4:4 does not teach sola Scriptura.

It warns against it.

And it ALSO teaches us implicitly to wait in joyful expectation for the Holy Eucharist, which Jesus gave to us at the Last Supper through His Apostles where we DO receive EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God because He is God Himself that we receive.

 

[Cathoholic]

1st CORINTHIANS 11:27 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread OR drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body AND blood of the Lord.

Medwigel . . .

Also, consider if we use your assumption that you can take one to cover both because it says “or” . . .

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I am just reasserting what the verse explicitly says (above).

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If it’s an “or” statement it means either one can be used to satisfy the requirement.

(emphasis mine)

No. Not “IF”.

It IS an either/or statement.

And WITH “EITHER/OR” you profane “YES/AND”.

If you unworthily receive the consecrated host OR receive of the cup unworthily, . . . . You profane . . .
. . . The body AND blood of the Lord.

THAT is what Scripture explicitly says.

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1st CORINTHIANS 11:27 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread OR drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body AND blood of the Lord.

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel. You around?

Painting the Eucharist with Precious Blood Liturgy and Sacraments

medwigel. I would like to have the discussion with you concerning St. Peter, Matthew 4:4, and WHY when you “just” receive the consecrated host (in the Catholic Church), you ARE receiving Jesus’ blood too. But too often I have seen people come on here new (I see you are new–welcome to Catholic Answers Forums), make a few points superficially, then proverbially disappear. I am not saying this is what YOU plan to do. I am just saying IF, that is what is going on, it’s not worth me attempting to…

I know things get busy (that happens for everybody).

Just checking as it has been three or four days now since you have replied.

 

[medwigel]

Hey Catholic, still here
It’s end of the month at work and just trying to get some things done.
Will be back soon

 

[Cathoholic]

It’s end of the month at work and just trying to get some things done.
Will be back soon

Fair enough.

Thanks for the quick response.

 

[jlhargus]

You only know scripture is scripture because it has been Traditioned or handed on to you.

2Thes3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

[2Thes2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,]

 

[jlhargus]

The church can't be an infallible source because the church is made of people, and as someone pointed out earlier, all men/women who walk the face of this earth have sinned Romans 3:23; the only exception is Jesus.  So if all men sin then the possibility of error exists.

We can all agree, “if all men sin then the possibility of error exists.” The exception would be those Christ sent as a teaching authority (Magisterium) promising to be with them till the end of the age, Mt28:16-20. He further promised to send the Spirit of Truth to lead that Magisterium into all truth, Jn13:16. Paul writes to Timothy saying the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15. It can’t be a pillar and ground of truth if it can teach as dogma something false on faith and morals. Christ sent the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth as a guarantor that even sinful men will not cause the Church to teach error on faith and morals.

Christ is building One Visible Infallible Church on St Rock, to whom he gave the keys, Mt:16:13-19. Christ prayed for Peter alone that Peter’s faith fail not and to strengthen his brethren, Lk22:32. Christ charged Peter to feed his sheep & lambs, Jn21:15-17, that includes all Christ’s people the great and little. The bishops of the world in union with Peter when gathered together in an Ecumenical Council can also define dogma.

[Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.]

[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8-16 …. 17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.] If the bishops must give an account, before God, for their teaching then in justice they must be given the ability to infallibly define a truth.

 

[jlhargus]

jlhargus:

I will give you (singular) the keys of the kingdom and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And then in Matthew 18:18-20 Jesus tell everyone that they too have the power to bind and loose things in heaven and on earth.
This power was not just given to Peter, it’s given to all believers.

Christ didn’t tell everyone but the other apostles. They can bind and loose but only in union with the holder of the keys. Christ gave the keys to Peter singularly.

 

[jlhargus]

jlhargus:

He appointed a first minister giving that first minister the keys to the kingdom

The desired structure of the church can be found in Ephesians 4:11-16
These are gifts given to the church from Christ: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
He didn’t appoint just one position, Jesus gifted us with a 5 fold ministry to keep us on the right path.

Please demonstrate that with the scripture.

 

[jlhargus]

we can all agree that God is perfect and in Him there is no error. So if in Him there is no error then His word, the Bible, must be considered perfect as well.

We can all agree again God’s Word is perfect and without error but interpretations certainly are not. We can clearly see this in thousands of denomination’s contradicting interpretations of the same scripture.

 

[Pathway2]

Trouble is that this may refer to the temptation of no longer focusing on God. him referring to the commandment may reference him maintaining in fasting regardless of his hunger. which is getting him closer to God, resisting the devils temptation of no longer fasting and focusing on trying to survive. Jesus may be saying that we must live with the LORD. we shouldn’t separate yourself just because the trial is hard. This is an interpretation I thought of.

Also, it may not for the infallibility of the pope especially defended with Mathew 16, and Act on the first christian council which declared that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised. The priesthood is also chosen by God from Adam and Eve to priest today. who focus on Tradition as well as scripture and declared by the pope as the prime minster for God himself. The church was given. Judaism had the law and oral tradition. The Christians have the church. What must we declare as sacred scripture . The church sorted it out in the fourth century and Protestants removed the books. Likely case scenario it could have been that Jesus was talking about the Torah more. Though the new testaments is divinely inspire,… that was a few thoughs

 

[medwigel]

Well HOW can we POSSIBLY RECEIVE EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God . . . . without . . . . RECEIVING GOD Himself?

I am back.
To the above statement, you are putting the cart before the horse. How can you “receive” Christ if you first have not accepted Him as your Lord and Savior? How can you agree to receive Christ if you have never heard of Him? And how can you hear and learn about Him except through the Word, and the Word is Christ (John 1:1)
Only those who have accepted Christ can partake in communion; if you haven’t accepted what Jesus has done for you then communion has no meaning for that person.
So it all starts with the Word.

 

[medwigel]

The exception would be those Christ sent as a teaching authority (Magisterium) promising to be with them till the end of the age, Mt28:16-20

NO, there is no exception!! ALL men sin and fall short of God’s glory.
Show me where this exception exists.
While God calls some to serve in preaching and teaching He never said that they could not be wrong or interpret incorrectly, and as I have mentioned before there are many instances where the Magisterium has gotten things wrong. Just because you have authority doesn’t alway make what you do and say right or truth.

 

[twf]

Wow. That’s idolatry and perhaps even blasphemy… to equate a collection of man written books, even if inspired and sacred, with the eternal Word.

 

[Cathoholic]

JOHN 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

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medwigel. Do you affirm you must receive “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”?

 

[medwigel]

Christ is building One Visible Infallible Church on St Rock, to whom he gave the keys, Mt:16:13-19. Christ prayed for Peter alone that Peter’s faith fail not and to strengthen his brethren, Lk22:32. Christ charged Peter to feed his sheep & lambs, Jn21:15-17, that includes all Christ’s people the great and little. The bishops of the world in union with Peter when gathered together in an Ecumenical Council can also define dogma.

You need to read on to Matthew 18:15-20 where Jesus is telling us all how to deal with those who sin against us. This lesson is not just meant for the disciples and in it He gives us all the same authority He gave Peter earlier to bind and loose.

Yes, Peter was a leader in the early church, but he wasn’t always right. Paul confronted Peter on his hypocrisy and stated that his, Peter’s example, lead followers astray Galatians 2:11-13.

The Bible is a book of promises to ALL believers, not just church leaders. Christ gave authority to the church and the church=believers. If you believe in Christ you have the power to bind and loose, you can perform miracles and you are meant to go out and proclaim the Gospel to all men- this was not given to just the apostles. Paul tells us that we are all ambassadors for Christ- which means we ALL represent Christ and have the power to act on His behalf 2 Corinthians 5:20-21.

 

[medwigel]

medwigel. Do you affirm you must receive “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”?

I first affirm Romans 10: 9-10
You must first confess that Jesus is Lord (not just a teacher or leader or some other important historical figure) and accept and believe in your heart what He saved you from eternal death so that you can have eternal life through Him.
So it’s more than just the fact that He became flesh and dwelt among us, the key is that He choose to die AND He rose again. Without the death and resurrection Jesus’ life on this earth would not have been enough to pay for our sins.

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . .

I first affirm Romans 10: 9-10
You must first confess that Jesus is Lord . . .

OK. You are throwing WORKS into the need to be saved (“confessing with your lips”). Fine.

But that’s not what I asked you about.

I specifically asked if “you affirm you must receive the Word became flesh and dwelt among us?” (“Every WORD that comes forth from the mouth of God”)

So I’ll wait for your answer and proceed as indicated.

 

[medwigel]

OK. You are throwing WORKS into the need to be saved (“confessing with your lips”). Fine.

But that’s not what I asked you about.

I specifically asked if “you affirm you must receive the Word became flesh and dwelt among us?” (“Every WORD that comes forth from the mouth of God”)

So I’ll wait for your answer and proceed as indicated.

Whether you’re “confessing” or “affirming” you still must be an active participant, I wouldn’t call in “works”. We have a relationship with Christ, and in a relationship it’s a give and take, so we have to do something; He sacrificed and we acknowledge and honor that sacrifice.

I would say you must believe the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (somehow receive doesn’t quite fit).