Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[medwigel]

So is this WORK necessary for salvation medwigel?

Work is not necessary to be saved. Salvation comes through faith.
There are people who have been saved by just reading the Bible on their own.
There is work involved in spreading the Word on the part of the believer, no the person being saved.

 

[medwigel]

So you MUST speak if you are to be saved or “confess with your lips” as well as “believe in your heart”?

Absolutely!
Proverbs 18:21a says “Death and life are in the power of the tongue”.

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . .

Work is not necessary to be saved.

So someone else’s WORK of “preaching” is NOT necessary (because St. Paul suggests they cannot get that “faith” unless somebody is doing the WORK of preaching)?

Cathoholic . . .

So you MUST speak if you are to be saved . . .?

medwigel . . .

Absolutely!

.

(I just want to get this straight because some of what you are saying sounds self-contradictory.)

 

[medwigel]

So someone else’s WORK of “preaching” is NOT necessary (because St. Paul suggests they cannot get that “faith” unless somebody is doing the WORK of preaching)?

There have been inmates in prison who have been saved by just reading the Bible. They did not have anyone to preach to them. So yes, it is possible to be saved without having someone else preach the Word to you.

I have been firm that salvation is something between the person and Christ alone.
You are the one who wants to add additional layers and complicate the issue of salvation.
I think you are confusing the road to salvation with the act of salvation.
Everyone’s path to salvation can be different, as I mentioned before, a prison inmate may come to Christ different than someone who was raised in the church and Christ was seen as a given, where someone else may actively seek out the Work and others may hear something that resonates with them, but the act of salvation is the same for all…you must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart.

 

[Cathoholic]

ROMANS 10:14-15, 17 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!” .
. . . 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

NOT ROMANS 10:14-15, 17 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!” .
. . . 17 So faith sometimes comes from what is heard, but it is possible to have faith and therefore be saved without having someone else preach the Word to you.

Why complicate the Scriptures medwigel?

Why not just believe what St. Paul explicitly said?

medwigel . . .

you must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart.

What other WORKS that you don’t want to call “works” (like the WORK of “confessing with your lips”) are necessary to be saved?

Do you need to feed the hungry and clothe the poor as Jesus said in Matthew 25?

Can we call these WORKS non-works too?

How about repenting AND being Baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Is that a WORK, or isn’t it?

How about as in Mattew 7:21 and people who call out “Lord! Lord!” to Jesus but had refused to DO the will of the Father?

How about people who have God as their “Father”, but refuse to “forgive their brother”? Presumably they have “faith” as God is their “Father”. Are they “saved”?

And how about people who are IN JESUS? They had to have faith to get IN Jesus. Are they necessarily “saved” even if they refuse to REMAIN in the Vine (if they REFUSE to REMAIN in Jesus)?

What if people HAVE FAITH to move mountains, but have not charity? St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 13, says they gain . . . NOTHING! Do YOU think they GAIN Heaven anyway?

What if we refuse to take up our crosses DAILY and follow Jesus? Is that optional. If we are heirs of Christ as St. Paul says in Romans 8:17, but now REFUSE to suffer with Jesus do we have salvation anyway because we are “heirs”? Can you be an “heir” without faith?

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . .

You are the one who wants to add additional layers and complicate the issue of salvation.

All I am doing medwigel is following after the Scriptures here.

It us YOU that seem to be adding in traditions that are not in Scripture.

traditions of men that make void the word of God like the tradition of justification by faith ALONE (which is taught NOWHERE in Scripture).

traditions of men like sola Scriptura.

Bible-only Christians can’t even define sola Scriptura because it’s not taught anywhere in the Bible (they frequently are arguing with each other over the “proper” definition of this tradition of sola Scriptura.) much less give evidence for it.

So they sometimes are awkwardly forced to pretend the term “word of God” always means “the Bible”, ignoring the fact that this is UNBIBLICAL to attempt to prop up this tradition.

 

[Cathoholic]

Trying to posit Matthew 4:4 teaches sola Scriptura does violence to the text.

Jesus says we’ve gotta live by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God. EVERY WORD!

And the Bible itself warns us that the Bible does NOT contain “EVERY” word as the WHOLE WORLD couldn’t fit the books about Jesus.

And if that isn’t enough, once somebody rationalizes through that, then they are stuck having to see “THE WORD” made FLESH. (But then they try to DIVORCE Jesus Spirit from His INCARNATE BODY and say they “get every word” when they “accept Jesus [Spirit ONLY] into my heart as personal Lord and Savior” ).

But the Bible doesn’t say that.

So they end up “spiritualizing away” the very words of Jesus in Matthew 4:4 where we are EXPLICITLY TOLD to live by EVERY WORD that comes forth from the mouth of God.

And that attitude is anti-incarnational. Yet they tout their . . . “Belief”.

 

[Pathway2]

Esdras.
Book of Tobit (the Vulgate, and Luther call it “Tobias”)
Book of Judith.
Book of Wisdom.
Sirach or Ecclesiasticus.
Baruch.
Susanna.
1st & 2nd Maccabees.

what I got online

 

[medwigel]

Esdras.

Book of Tobit (the Vulgate, and Luther call it “Tobias”)

Book of Judith.

Book of Wisdom.

Sirach or Ecclesiasticus.

Baruch.

Susanna.

1st & 2nd Maccabees.

what I got online

But even the Catholic church acknowledges that these books were not necessarily inspired by God as the rest of the Bible. It is seen as good for getting lessons but not for doctrine.

 

[medwigel]

Jesus says we’ve gotta live by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God. EVERY WORD!

And the Bible itself warns us that the Bible does NOT contain “EVERY” word as the WHOLE WORLD couldn’t fit the books about Jesus.

It is impossible to know every person’s words verbatim, so we do not know EVERYTHING that Jesus said. But just because you don’t know everything He ever said doesn’t mean you then ignore what He DID say. And we can all agree that the Bible is the Word of God, so why not start by following what we do have?
The Bible is His word that He has given us. He saw fit to use men, through Holy Sprit, to convey the important things we need to know and do. Why waste time and energy on what was not written?

 

[Pathway2]

thank you for explaining to me.

 

[jlhargus]

Christ is building One Visible Infallible Church on St Rock, to whom he gave the keys, Mt:16:13-19. Christ prayed for Peter alone that Peter’s faith fail not and to strengthen his brethren, Lk22:32. Christ charged Peter to feed his sheep & lambs, Jn21:15-17, that includes all Christ’s people the great and little. The bishops of the world in union with Peter when gathered together in an Ecumenical Council can also define dogma.

You need to read on to Matthew 18:15-20 where Jesus is telling us all how to deal with those who sin against us. This lesson is not just meant for the disciples and in it He gives us all the same authority He gave Peter earlier to bind and loose.

Yes, Peter was a leader in the early church, but he wasn’t always right. Paul confronted Peter on his hypocrisy and stated that his, Peter’s example, lead followers astray Galatians 2:11-13.

The Bible is a book of promises to ALL believers, not just church leaders. Christ gave authority to the church and the church=believers. If you believe in Christ you have the power to bind and loose,

When, what and who have you bond or loosed?

 

[AugustTherese]

There are people who have been saved by just reading the Bible on their own.

Name one Saint in Heaven to have done this.

 

[medwigel]

When, what and who have you bond or loosed?

I was on a mission trip in Mozambique last year, and as we were heading back to our final stop we experienced several delays that day, including a mechanical issue on the bus what was thankfully repaired on the road. Once we had that crisis handled we where then stopped at a checkpoint. Apparently we were on the road past curfew. The soldiers who stopped us wanted to detain everyone on the bus until the next morning (which would not have worked since our flight was leaving the next day). To those soldiers were were just a group of tourist; Mozambique is predominantly Muslim, so we could not to appeal to our common belief in Christ and the work that we were doing. The soldiers told the driver to cut the engine and get off the bus. What followed on that bus was the collective prayers of everyone, in both English and Portuguese. I saw this as the devil trying to ruin all the positive work we had accomplished on that trip. We all rebuked the devil’s efforts to discourage us and take away from the good that we had done. Together we sent up prayers to bind the spirit of oppression that we found ourselves under and loosed deliverance and freedom. After about an hour, our group leader was able to track down some local government officials and they were able to convince the soldiers to release us. We made it to our hotel unharmed, and the hotel even kept the restaurant open for us so that we would have something to eat. We were all then able to travel safely back home the next day.
Mind you, that was my first mission trip ever. If the devil had his way, he would have used this experience to discourage me from ministering to others abroad, but I have faith in the authority God has give to me. This summer I plan to go to Cuba to minister.

The power of the Word is alive and well in our everyday situations, whether they be big or small.

 

[medwigel]

Name one Saint in Heaven to have done this.

Unfortunately I can’t name a person specifically who was saved by reading the Bible (I’ll keep searching though and let you know who I find), but I can tell you of a person who was saved just by confessing what he believed, and that was the thief who died on the cross with Jesus. All he had was the Word, which was Jesus in the flesh, no once preached to him, and he was able to recognize Jesus as Lord, and for that confession of his belief Jesus said that he, despite the fact that he was a criminal who deserved to die under the Roman law, would be in paradise.

 

[AugustTherese]

Unfortunately I can’t name a person specifically who was saved by reading the Bible (I’ll keep searching though and let you know who I find)

Not to limit God on how He can save His elect, but I can assure you the usual way is not be merely reading the Bible; if so, many Christians were out of luck for the first four centuries. So, do not waste your time searching, you will not find anyone.

“You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them.” John 5:39

Reading the Bible is not eternal life, it is not being saved. Eternal life is participating and sharing in the Divine life through the Sacraments of which the Scriptures incite.

but I can tell you of a person who was saved just by confessing what he believed, and that was the thief who died on the cross with Jesus

He did quite more than ‘just by confessing what he believed’. He admonished the other thief, a spiritual work of mercy; he publicly made an act of contrition, true repentance; and he prayed for Our Lord to save him on his ‘deathbed’.

 

[medwigel]

“You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them.” John 5:39

Reading the Bible is not eternal life, it is not being saved. Eternal life is participating and sharing in the Divine life through the Sacraments of which the Scriptures incite.

You need to read the next verse John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life”
Eternal life comes through Christ, not through the acts of men or sacraments. If you read further up it says in John 5:38a “But you do not have His word abiding in you”
Then there is perhaps one of the most quoted scripture in the Bible John 3:16 “For God so loved the work that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
The scripture says you get eternal life by believing in Christ, not through sacraments.
Once you are saved you do share with Christ, we become joint heirs with Christ and are glorified together with Him Romans 8:17.

 

[medwigel]

He did quite more than ‘just by confessing what he believed’. He admonished the other thief, a spiritual work of mercy; he publicly made an act of contrition, true repentance; and he prayed for Our Lord to save him on his ‘deathbed’.

What mercy did the thief give out? or are you referring to the mercy Jesus had for him?

 

[AugustTherese]

Eternal life comes through Christ, not through the acts of men or sacraments. If you read further up it says in John 5:38a “But you do not have His word abiding in you”

Jesus Christ is not a collection of books. Jesus Christ is a Divine Person with flesh, blood, and a soul. Moreover, the Word is a Person, i.e. Jesus Christ. To have Him abide in us is to have His Spirit, Body, and Blood infused into our beings, which is done through the Sacraments, most notably through Holy Baptism and the Eucharist.

 

[medwigel]

To have Him abide in us is to have His Spirit, Body, and Blood infused into our beings, which is done through the Sacraments, most notably through Holy Baptism and the Eucharist.

These things do not save you. These things are an outward showing of what you believe once you have been saved.
Romans 10:9-10 tells you how you are saved so that you can have eternal life.

Yes the Word is a person and He left us a template of how to follow Him and how to live our lives. You don’t need to go outside the text to find this.
And while the words in the Bible stay true God is able to give different people different revelations about His word to serve the appointed time and situation.