Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[Cathoholic]

The Biblical Greek (“Koine Greek”) word for “all” can have different definitions/meanings.

“All” may mean “All” in a collective, approximative, or distributive sense.

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• Collective sense of “all” = Every group or every category.
• Approximative sense of “all” = “Most” or even “many”.
• Distributive sense of “all” = Every single solitary individual one.

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“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” CANNOT mean every single solitary human!

“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” CANNOT be in the distributive sense.

Why?

Because we know there are exceptions.

Romans 3 is talking about “all” in a “collective sense”.

Romans 3 is referring to two groups of people–Jews AND Gentiles (“Greeks”). And BOTH Jews and Gentiles (“Greeks”) are sinners.

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ROMANS 3:9, 22b-23 9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin . . .
. . . 22 For there is no distinction;
23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God . . .

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Medwigel jumping to this “no exception” invention in an absolute or “distributive” sense is exactly the type of issues you run into when you follow sola scriptura.

Medwiegel ILLUSTRATES some of the PROBLEMS with sola scriptura here.

We are not “Lone Rangers” with just us and our Bibles.

And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, Matthew 4:4 teaches AGAINST sola Scriptura (if you use more related Scripture).

 

[medwigel]

You seem so enamored by your claim of revisionist history, next think we know you’ll be kneeling at football games in protest!

Until Black people stop getting shot for walking in residential neighborhoods after dark, getting shoot at routine traffic stops, getting shot in the back while running away, getting shot and having medical care withheld, dying mysteriously while in police custody, and the government stops the system of mass incarceration of black people were you get 10 years for selling crack but only probation for selling cocaine, and they stop spending money on building new jails but withhold funding to fix aging schools and buy updated educational materials and supplies, then you better believe I will be taking a knee at a football game or wherever, until this country can live up to it creed of FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL AMERICANS.

So please don’t try to trivialize the problems and struggles of others, because your are ignorant to the facts, to try to prove your point.

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel to bobperk . . . .

Until Black people stop getting shot for walking in residential neighborhoods after dark, getting shoot at routine traffic stops, getting shot in the back while running away, getting shot and having medical care withheld, dying mysteriously while in police custody, and the government stops the system of mass incarceration of black people were you get 10 years for selling crack but only probation for selling cocaine, and they stop spending money on building new jails but withhold funding to fix aging schools and buy updated educational materials and supplies, then you better believe I will be taking a knee at a football game or wherever, until this country can live up to it creed of FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL AMERICANS.

So please don’t try to trivialize the problems and struggles of others, because your are ignorant to the facts, to try to prove your point.

medwigel. I want to urge you to get back on the thread issue.

That is the issue of sola Scriptura (and how sola Scriptura cannot be defended Biblically).

 

[medwigel]

medwigel. I want to urge you to get back on the thread issue.

That is the issue of sola Scriptura (and how sola Scriptura cannot be defended Biblically).

Until Black people stop getting shot for walking in residential neighborhoods after dark, getting shoot at routine traffic stops, getting shot in the back while running away, getting shot and having medical care withheld, dying mysteriously while in police custody, and the government stops the system of mass incarceration of black people were you get 10 years for selling crack but only probation for selling cocaine, and they stop spending money on building new jails but withhold funding to fix aging schools and buy updated educational materials and supplies, then you better believe I will be taking a knee at a football game or wherever, until this country can live up to it creed of FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL AMERICANS.

So please don’t try to trivialize the problems and struggles of others, because your are ignorant to the facts, to try to prove your point.

 

[Chris4]

Read 2 Peter 2:1-3 and Matthew 7:15
Christ is not misleading the Church, its the devil.
Christ is giving us a warning against false teachers because sin is still in the world and the devil is alive and well and is always looking for ways to destroy the Church by any means.

Sorry for having attributed the above to you. See whoever wrote was very careful to say “Christ is not misleading the Church, its the devil”. We Catholics believe in the perpetual presence and guidance of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Church. The devil whom the writer of the above quote mentioned is not part of the leadership.Period. But it is not surprising if someone tries to push him in from the outside. Even Christ had warned when somewhere in scripture some unknowingly tried to attribute his work to that of Beelzebub. At times even now when we do do not understand what Christ does we do the same as the above writer shows. I am sorry that it was not you. Whichever faith the writer is, is not part of the Catholic concern. The Catholic concern is the Truth.

 

[Cathoholic]

This is a “Bible” and “sola Scriptura” thread.

Sola Scriptura has been shown to be false.

Now this . . .

Medwigel . . .

. . . So please don’t try to trivialize the problems and struggles of others, because your are ignorant to the facts, to try to prove your point.

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As Charlie Brown would say . . . . “Good grief!”

 

[medwigel]

We Catholics believe in the perpetual presence and guidance of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Church. The devil whom the writer of the above quote mentioned is not part of the leadership.Period.

Soooo, who was present and guiding the leadership of the church when policies were made and put into place to transfer pedophile priests from parish to another?
This problem was known by the leadership of the church and they allowed the problem to fester, and they enabled these priests to ruin the lives of thousands of young souls in multiple countries.
So again I ask, was it Christ or Holy Spirit guiding the leadership in these actions?
Of course it wasn’t Christ or Holy Spirit, it was the devil who had infiltrated the church and the hearts of those leaders who turned a blind eye to horrendous abuses!
Oh yes, the devil has influenced church leadership!

 

[medwigel]

This is a “Bible” and “sola Scriptura” thread.

Sola Scriptura has been shown to be false.

Now this . . .

Medwigel . . .

> . . . So please don’t try to trivialize the problems and struggles of others, because your are ignorant to the facts, to try to prove your point.

.

As Charlie Brown would say . . . . “Good grief!”

Until Black people stop getting shot for walking in residential neighborhoods after dark, getting shoot at routine traffic stops, getting shot in the back while running away, getting shot and having medical care withheld, dying mysteriously while in police custody, and the government stops the system of mass incarceration of black people were you get 10 years for selling crack but only probation for selling cocaine, and they stop spending money on building new jails but withhold funding to fix aging schools and buy updated educational materials and supplies, then you better believe I will be taking a knee at a football game or wherever, until this country can live up to it creed of FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL AMERICANS.
So please don’t try to trivialize the problems and struggles of others, because your are ignorant to the facts, to try to prove your point.

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel seems to deny the efficacy of Catholic teaching
based upon the personal lives (not official teaching but “LIVES”) of bad Catholic Bishops (here).

Soooo, who was present and guiding the leadership of the church when policies were made and put into place to transfer pedophile priests from parish to another?

This problem was known by the leadership of the church and they allowed the problem to fester, and they enabled these priests to ruin the lives of thousands of young souls in multiple countries.

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medwigel wrongly thinks because these men are sinners they cannot TEACH infallibly.

(This is a dangerous position because if medwigel or anyone else holding to this pernicious idea ever sees “big issues” with their own pastor, it COULD hurt medwigel’s or others faith based upon the same false premise that medwigel is trotting out here).

medwigel seems to confuse infallibility with impeccability.

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Using the “medwigel method” taken to its logical conclusion, the
Apostles couldn’t be authentic teachers either
because they ALL abandoned our Lord Jesus in the Garden of Olives.
(And THAT would undermine the very Scriptures medwigel is appealing to, at least in part).

MARK 14:48-50 48 And Jesus said to them, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? 49 Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But let the scriptures be fulfilled.” 50 And they ALL forsook him, and fled.

 

[bobperk]

Soooo, who was present and guiding the leadership of the church when policies were made and put into place to transfer pedophile priests from parish to another?
This problem was known by the leadership of the church and they allowed the problem to fester, and they enabled these priests to ruin the lives of thousands of young souls in multiple countries.
So again I ask, was it Christ or Holy Spirit guiding the leadership in these actions?

Didn’t Christ Himself select Judas as an apostle? Did not the others abandon Him in His final hours? Even a man hand-picked by the Lord himself turned Him in to the authorities.

And who was guiding the Jews when they handed Jesus over to death over Barabbas? You claim that the man-made “tradition” of the Jews gave us the true Old Testament. Yet many of these same ones, whom you claim were guided by God to preserve the correct canon of the OT, couldn’t tell that the Messiah had arrived despite centuries of prophecy beforehand.

 

[Chris4]

> We Catholics believe in the perpetual presence and guidance of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Church. The devil whom the writer of the above quote mentioned is not part of the leadership.Period.

Soooo, who was present and guiding the leadership of the church when policies were made and put into place to transfer pedophile priests from parish to another?
This problem was known by the leadership of the church and they allowed the problem to fester, and they enabled these priests to ruin the lives of thousands of young souls in multiple countries.
So again I ask, was it Christ or Holy Spirit guiding the leadership in these actions?
Of course it wasn’t Christ or Holy Spirit, it was the devil who had infiltrated the church and the hearts of those leaders who turned a blind eye to horrendous abuses!
Oh yes, the devil has influenced church leadership!

Medwigel, you can bet Christ was there writing on the ground when accusations against the pedophiles were being made, and you know where we were (you included) when He straightened up. (John 8:10). You know Midwigel Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot be faulted for having had a one Judas Iscariot as an Apostle and a treasurer. For that is the type he came for - not the accusers. The fact that Saul was a killer and a persecutor has never diminished the veracity of the truth he presented. You have never stopped quoting him just because of the issues he had with the Church. Paul himself admits that he had a weakness Romans 7:15-20 New International Version (NIV)
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. But did this reduce his truthfulness? Christ has heavily in his Gospels used the ‘sinners’ to send out his message. It was not the likes of us who have assumed the moral high grounds whom Christ addresses. He has a term for us who point out the sins of others " hypocrites" whose capacity to see specks despite the logs. He was all the time of associating with the moral rejects of society. It is the sinful woman could it be the same who was accused? who went to ‘church’ to anoint

 

[medwigel]

Didn’t Christ Himself select Judas as an apostle? Did not the others abandon Him in His final hours? Even a man hand-picked by the Lord himself turned Him in to the authorities.

This is my point exactly! Satan was at work in all those situations. Even when in the presence of Christ the devil found a way to infiltrate the hearts of these men.
Even Adam and Eve, who were living in paradise and where in God’s presence, allowed to devil to get to them. The devil found his way into the paradise that God had made.

 

[medwigel]

Medwigel, you can bet Christ was there writing on the ground when accusations against the pedophiles were being made, and you know where we were (you included) when He straightened up. (John 8:10). You know Midwigel Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot be faulted for having had a one Judas Iscariot as an Apostle and a treasurer. For that is the type he came for - not the accusers. The fact that Saul was a killer and a persecutor has never diminished the veracity of the truth he presented. You have never stopped quoting him just because of the issues he had with the Church. Paul himself admits that he had a weakness Romans 7:15-20 New International Version (NIV)
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. But did this reduce his truthfulness? Christ has heavily in his Gospels used the ‘sinners’ to send out his message. It was not the likes of us who have assumed the moral high grounds whom Christ addresses. He has a term for us who point out the sins of others " hypocrites" whose capacity to see specks despite the logs. He was all the time of associating with the moral rejects of society. It is the sinful woman could it be the same who was accused? who went to ‘church’ to anoint

Ok, please understand me, I am not saying that our faults disqualify us from being used by God. Shoot, David was an adulterer and murder, and he was still considered a man after God’s own heart. Moses was a murderer and had some anger issues, but God still revealed Himself to him and used him to lead His people to freedom and choose him to author the first 5 books of the Bible.
My point is that all men, no matter how great their contributions can be, are subject to sin and error. This is why the teachings of men can’t be the final authority when it comes to the things of God. The final authority when it comes to God should be something that is infallible, and that infallible source is the Bible.
When we are trying to deal with the things of life and we want to find out God’s will in that situation, whatever answer we come up with must be in line with God’s Word. If we choose to lean on man’s understanding or authority we open ourselves up to the possibility of being lead astray.

Even in the Scripture you quoted above, even Paul is saying at times he wants to do something different but he decides to make himself subject to God’s Word and not to his own understanding.
See, even Paul is saying Scripture alone should be our ultimate authority.

 

[medwigel]

And who was guiding the Jews when they handed Jesus over to death over Barabbas? You claim that the man-made “tradition” of the Jews gave us the true Old Testament. Yet many of these same ones, whom you claim were guided by God to preserve the correct canon of the OT, couldn’t tell that the Messiah had arrived despite centuries of prophecy beforehand.

So according to you, what is the role of Jews and their history in relation to Christianity?
Who do you think wrote the OT?

 

[Cathoholic]

From Jimmy Akin and EWTN . . . .

. . . . During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use, including the growing canon used by Christians. . . .

. . . The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

Needless to say, the Church disregarded the results of Javneh. First, a Jewish council after the time of Christ is not binding on the followers of Christ. Second, Javneh rejected precisely those documents which are foundational for the Christian Church—the Gospels and the other documents of the New Testament. Third, by rejecting the deuterocanonicals, Javneh rejected books which had been used by Jesus and the apostles . . .

The Apostles & the Deuteros

The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was logical because the deuterocanonicals were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New are from the Septuagint. . . .

But the apostles did not merely place the deuterocanonicals in the hands of their converts as part of the Septuagint. They regularly referred to the deuterocanonicals in their writings. For example, Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament and in the Old Testament “Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life” (Heb. 11:35).

There are a couple of examples of women receiving back their dead by resurrection in the Protestant Old Testament. You can find Elijah raising the son of the widow of Zarepheth in 1 Kings 17, and you can find his successor Elisha raising the son of the Shunammite woman in 2 Kings 4, but one thing you can never find—anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi—is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection. If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament—in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.

The story is found in 2 Maccabees 7 . . .

. . . . ut the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying, 'The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us . . . ’ After the first brother had died . . . they brought forward the second for their sport. . . . he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. And when he was at his last breath, he said, ‘You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life’" (2 Macc. 7:1, 5-9). . . .

Read it all here . .

https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.HTM

 

[Cathoholic]

Also . . .

. . . . What complicates matters further is that different groups within Second Temple Judaism apparently considered different books canonical. Although the biblical books used by the Pharisees is likely identical to Josephus’, which looks like the Old Testament of most Protestants, and, it should be noted, the Hebrew Bible (Tanak) of the majority of contemporary Judaism, this is not for certain. Sadducees, on the other hand, had a much smaller list of biblical books (only including the Penateuch, according to New Testament evidence). It is difficult to determine what canon was in use among the Jews at Qumran—where Esther has not been discovered but Tobit and Sirach from the deuterocanon have been found (in Aramaic and Hebrew no less)—but it appears they likely considered some of their own community’s texts as canonical.2 The question of canon at such an early stage, however, is complicated by the fact that we are not even sure what a canon would mean at that point within Judaism. Would they have understood those texts as divinely revealed, as inspired? And what would inspiration mean for them? Would there have been a canon-within-a-canon? These questions remain unresolved.

We do know, however, that certain Jewish communities did in fact use the Septuagint (LXX) translation of the Bible, and that they included the deuterocanonicals as Scripture. Although far from certain, the Book of Sirach appears to have been according canonical status among some of the early rabbis (more on this in a future post). A recent discovery of medieval manuscripts from the Cairo Genizah has shown that Jews in the medieval period in Africa, and throughout the Byzantine Empire, continued to use the LXX (more on this in a future post). To this day, Ethiopian Jews use the LXX as their Bible, including the deuterocanonicals. Some Jews in antiquity used, and some Jews today continue to include the deuterocanonicals in their Scripture. . .

(Bold mine)

Read the whole article here . . .

http://caritasetveritas.com/2011/02...ever-a-part-of-the-jewish-canon-of-scripture/

 

[Cathoholic]

In St. John’s Gospel we see Jesus going up to Jerusalem and attending the Feast of the Dedication or The Festival of Lights (“Hanukkah” or Chanukah).

JOHN 8:12, 10:22-23a 12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” . . . .22 It was the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter . . . .

What is the Festival of Lights or Hanukkah?

Hanukkah is the Feast of Dedication (the re-dedication of the Second Temple after Antiochus Epiphanes had defiled the Temple so the Temple then needed re-consecration).

This was in about 353 B.C.

The Temple was defiled so the Jews needed to re-dedicate the Temple to God (as there were pagan sacrifices offered there by “the bad guys” including slaying of a swine).

The Liturgy for Consecration of the Temple took eight days (a prefigurement of the eighth day or The Lord’s Day . . . to COMPLETE).

There was clearly not enough pure olive oil to burn in the Temple lamps (Jewish Menorahs). Only ONE DAY’S worth of oil was there.

Yet the oil miraculously lasted all eight days of the re-dedication ceremony!

This amazing event has been celebrated ever since those mid 300’s B.C.

(And you can read about parts of it in the Bible. But only if you have a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Bible.)

This from The Scroll of Antiochus (found in many places including here) . . .

After this, the sons of Israel went up to the Temple and rebuilt its gates and purified the Temple from the dead bodies and from the defilement. And they sought after pure olive oil to light the lamps therewith, but could not find any, except one bowl that was sealed with the signet ring of the High Priest from the days of Samuel the prophet and they knew that it was pure. There was in it [enough oil] to light [the lamps therewith] for one day, but the God of heaven whose name dwells there put therein his blessing and they were able to light from it eight days.

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You can also read about part of this Jewish Festival that Jesus had went up to Jerusalem for . . . . in 1st and 2nd Maccabees in the full Christian Bible. The Bible with the Catholic Christian Canon.

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But you CANNOT read about any of this Festival that Jesus attended with the truncated Protestant Canon!

 

[Cathoholic]

Also . . .

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During Hanukkah, Jewish people would have their Jewish Menorahs all over the city of Jerusalem in festive commemoration of this event. Lots of special oil LIGHTS.

You can still often see many Menorahs in windows of homes if you have Jewish neighbors wherever you live.

Remember.

The Temple Priests did not have enough oil to rededicate the Temple back in about 353 B.C.

Not nearly enough oil for the whole eight day rededication (or re-consecration) ceremony as they only had a ONE day supply of pure oil.

The Temple Priests elected to proceed anyway even though they did NOT have enough oil.

The priests knew the Temple NEEDED re-consecration after blasphemy had occurred there as the Temple had been defiled.

Never-the-less, the oil miraculously lasted all eight days of the re-dedication ceremony!

The Festival of Lights has been celebrated in one way or another ever since.

When Jesus was in Jerusalem later in John’s Gospel, there would be LIGHTS all over Jerusalem.

The city would be “lit up”.

And WHAT does our Lord Jesus say when He was there for the Festival of Lights?

Jesus says . . . “I AM the LIGHT of the world.”

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Just stop and consider the contextual implications of all of this.

Absolutely amazing.

A Jewish-Catholic woman I was discussing this with, Rosalind Moss, pointed out how people NOT raised in Judaism could easily miss this while reading St. John’s Gospel.

But this LIGHT asserion Jesus made about Himself was unmistakable for a Jewish person reading John 8-10.

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JOHN 8:12, 10:22-23a 12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” . . . .22 It was the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel in post 358 (here) . . . .

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Even the Roman Catholic Church did not officially recognize the Apocrypha as belonging in the Bible until the Council of Trent in A.D. 1546—Catholicism’s response to the Reformation.

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This is another falsehood that has been presented to medwigel
and unfortunately imbibed by medwigel
and passed off to readers of this thread by medwigel in post 358).

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Yet here we see something quite incompatible with the assertion medwigel was given.

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This from almost a hundred years BEFORE the Protestant Reformation from the Concil of Basel which is also, for reasons I won’t get into here, called The Council of Florence . . .

.

THE COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1431-1445 A.D.) It (the Council) professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament – that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel – since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit. It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows.

Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John.

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I emphasized the two books of Maccabees, because I have been discussing them in recent posts.

Unfortunately bringing any of these truths out won’t matter for many people.
(Which makes me wonder why they even bring up the Trent-Deuterocanonical issue in the first place anyway?)

I mean really.

If the Canon wasn’t defined until Trent and then “those Catholics ADDED the Deuteros just to attack us Protestants” . . .

. . . and then they find out the truth . . .

. . . that this is found untrue what they have been told about Catholicism from their own pastors . . .

. . . It means that either their pastors have been lying to them about Catholicism, or
their pastors are woefully under-informed about Catholicism.
(In which case, WHY should I trust these anti-Catholic or at least non-Catholic “pastors” about ANYTHING they have to say about the Catholic Church as they might not have the full truth there either?)

 

[Cathoholic]

Po18guy once wisely stated (with bold and syntax mine):

Compare, for instance, Wisdom 2:18 with Matthew 27:43:

WISDOM 2:18-20 18 for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
19 Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is,
and make trial of his forbearance.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”
.
.
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MATTHEW 27:43 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
.
.
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There is little doubt why the Pharisees rejected this book.
It is a shame that 1,500 years later, someone trusted their judgment.