Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[medwigel]

Again, please find me the word “Catholic” in the Scripture.

Acts 9:31
31 Then the [a]churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.

Hmm, not sure what your point is with referencing this Scripture

 

[medwigel]

No. Christ taught against human traditions. Jesus Himself is the Source of Sacred Tradition (the Word of God). He is Himself infallible authority.

So if Christ is the source of sacred tradition why is it not included in the Bible where the Word is found?

 

[medwigel]

Also post one scripture teaching infants are born again at birth and not born of flesh only, at birth?

This is your own assertion, I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[medwigel]

I was taught what the Catholic church had to offer and I found it lacking.

As a matter of fact I was confirmed and I attended Catholic school.
I was very involved in my old church and once I joined my current church I realized that the teaching I had received was lacking.
And when I read your various comments and understanding it just reaffirms my conclusion that there are things being taught that are not Biblical.

 

[guanophore]

As a matter of fact I was confirmed.

Did you understand, at the time, or since that time, that you had become obligated to learn the faith into which you were baptized?

I was very involved in my old church and once I joined my current church I realized that the teaching I had received was lacking.

Maybe you could explain what this means? I had the same experience prior to, and after my confirmation.

And when I read your various comments and understanding it just reaffirms my conclusion that there are things being taught that are not Biblical.

It is certainly true that the CC does not espouse Sola Scriptura. As a doctrine invented 1500 years after the fact, we are obligated to reject it as “a different gospel”, which, if we receive, would be anathema.

 

[medwigel]

First post one scripture example teaching baptism of all adults was done by being immersed?

Let’s first look at Jesus teaching by example! Jesus was baptized by immersion.
Matthew 3:13-16
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

Here is an example of someone newly converted being baptized by immersion as well. It doesn’t say water was poured onto his head, it says he went down into the water.
Acts 8:36-38
36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 [f]Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him

 

[medwigel]

Sacrament of Baptism remits sin;

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,]

This Scripture has nothing to do with baptism, this is dealing with husbands and wives. Paul is talking about the husband covering his wife by washing with the Word.
Here is the verse in context:
Ephesians 5:25-28
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might [g]sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

[Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.]

So they are being told to be baptized and to “call on the name of the Lord”. So clearly the Scripture is telling us that those who are being baptized should be calling on the name of the Lord, and I don’t know of any infant that can call on the name of the Lord. And there is nowhere in this Scripture where it says you can call on the Lord on someone else’s behalf to be saved.

Acts2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them , repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]

Again, the end of verse 39 says once again the need to call on the name of the Lord. Is is also saying that the promise of salvation is also for their children as well if their children call on the name of the Lord.
This Scripture does not even mention an act akin to christening.

 

[medwigel]

Sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession remits sin;

[Jn20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.]

This charge is not just the the disciples who were gathered but for all who believe, because even in one of the Scripture you quote, 2 Corinthians 2:10 Paul is saying the exact same thing, only you left out the part where his message was not to the elders or priests of the church but to everyone on how to deal with a believer who has done wrong
Here is that verse in context:
2 Corinthians 2:5-11
5 But if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me, but all of you to some extent—not to be too severe. 6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

[Jms5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.]

Ah, my favorite misunderstood Scripture. This is a Scripture on healing not absolution. Paul is telling us to confess our sins to each other, he does not specify priest nor does he touch on this confession leading to absolution. There is even a part in verse 14 where he does direct you to the elders of the church, but not for absolution or forgiveness but for healing. The rest of the Scripture is addressed to believers, the laypeople. It says confess your faults one to another, not confess your sins to the elders of the church, and it calls for believers to pray for one another so that they can be healed.
There is not mention of absolution.

 

[medwigel]

[Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.]

Again for this Scripture you need the full context
So here is a more expanded view:
Acts 19:16-20
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, [c]overpowered them, and prevailed against [d]them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

So the confession is being made by people as part of their act of salvation. These were not believers who were coming to the elders for forgiveness or absolution.

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel (from post 612) . . . . .

And there is nowhere in this Scripture where it says you can call on the Lord on someone else’s behalf.

Every time we pray on someone else’s behalf we are exercising this ability of our faith being applied to others’ benefit.

If our children are sick and God hears our prayers and the child gets better because of it, would this not prove this point? Yes.

Let’s look at a few examples of people’s faith being applied to OTHER individuals for their benefit.

In Matthew 8 we will see a servant is healed by Jesus based upon the faith of . . . the servant? No! The servant is healed on behalf of the faith of the centurion!

MATTHEW 8:5-13 5 As he entered Caperna-um, a centurion came forward to him, beseeching him 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, in terrible distress.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion answered him, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; be it done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.

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Objection: Well this is a mere physical healing. This has nothing to do with spiritual healing.

Answer: Some people have a problem with spiritual grace being conveyed in any form through the physical realm.

Can healing based on another’s faith not be applied to the spiritual realm too?

I suspect nothing I can say will convince some objectors of this truth.

But let’s go on and look at spiritual healing of a person based on the faith of OTHERS.

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel (from post 612) . . . . .

And there is nowhere in this Scripture where it says you can call on the Lord on someone else’s behalf.

.

Jesus along with Peter, James, and John were just coming down from Mount Tabor just after the Transfiguration event (which of course is why it is now often called the “Mount of Transfiguration”).

A man was waiting with many of Jesus’ other disciples meets Jesus at the bottom of the Mount.

This man has a son who was a victim of demonic possession since childhood or since “paidion” and the other Apostles could not cast it out (the Greek is paidion = paidion meaning infant or half-grown boy or girl, it can also mean “immature Christian” in a figurative sense but that is not the context here—see Strong’s Protestant Greek Lexicon #3813).

Let’s review the subsequent events in the scene that arose here.

MARK 9:14-26a, 27 14 And when they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd about them, and scribes arguing with them. 15 And immediately all the crowd, when they saw him, were greatly amazed, and ran up to him and greeted him. 16 And he asked them, “What are you discussing with them?” 17 And one of the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you,
for he has a dumb spirit; 18 and wherever it seizes him, it dashes him down; and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid;
and I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.” 19 And he answered them, “O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.”
20 And they brought the boy to him; and when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth.
21 And Jesus asked his father, “How long has he had this?”
And he said, "From childhood.
22 And it has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him;
but if you can do anything, have pity on us and help us."
23 And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You dumb and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again.” 26 And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, . . . 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.

.

So here we see the belief of the father of the BOY being applied to the son.

And Jesus affirming this notion and then acts on this concept on behalf of the boy!

Yet there is no evidence the boy was a believer—and he was even demon possessed.

The boy gets special grace from Jesus associated with his Father’s belief!

And also notice the boy had a spirit of a demon “from childhood”.

Am I supposed to believe that children cannot receive the Holy Spirit . . . (you know what I’m going to say) . . . .
. . . .but children CAN receive the spirit of a demon?!

No!

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel (from post 612) . . . . .

And there is nowhere in this Scripture where it says you can call on the Lord on someone else’s behalf.

We see the same concept of spiritual gifts because of the faith of another, earlier in Mark’s Gospel as well (see also Luke 5:17-26 and Matthew 9:1-8) in the story of the paralytic being brought to Jesus in Capernaum.

.

MARK 2:1-12 1 And when he returned to Caperna-um after some days, it was reported that he was at home. 2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room for them, not even about the door; and he was preaching the word to them. 3 And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. 4 And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and when they had made an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic lay.
5 And when Jesus saw THEIR FAITH, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your SINS are forgiven.”
6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this man speak thus? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question thus in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say,’ Rise, take up your pallet and walk? 10 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he said to the paralytic-- 11 “I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.” 12 And he rose, and immediately took up the pallet and went out before them all; so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

.

This healing of not only the paralytic’s HEALTH but his SIN also (!) is again based on another’s faith (“their faith” - V.5).

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Now let’s go onto St. Matthews explanation of probably this very same account. And listen carefully what the Holy Spirit inspired St. Matthew to write, especially at the end of the passage.

MATTHEW 9:1-8 1 And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. 2 And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, 'Rise and walk? 6 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he then said to the paralytic–“Rise, take up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home. 8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and
they glorified God, who had given such AUTHORITY to MEN.

.

Notice what verse 8 doesn’t say!

When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to a man and one man ALONE.

.

 

[Cathoholic]

Sean77 . . . .

Again, feel free to infallibly define a teaching of Christ not contained in scripture and demonstrate the path of transmission from which it came.

The “path of transmission” is the God-given authority to the Bishops (especially in the Pope who is a bishop with primacy).

.

The “teaching” is the Canon of the New Testament . . . .

The Council of FLORENCE 1431 to 1445 AD. (parenthetical addition mine) . . .

.

THE COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1431-1445 A.D.) It (the Council) professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament – that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel – since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit. It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows.
.
. . . . . the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John.

The Council of Florence was a reaffirmation of what the Church had already LONG taught.

Here is Pope St. Damasus I, teaching this authoritatively (what was before handed down orally).

The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D.
.
Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament . . . .
.
. . . . Likewise the order of the writings of the New and Eternal Testament, which only the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke one book, according to John one book. The Epistles of Paul the Apostle in number fourteen. To the Romans one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians two, to the Galatians one, to the Philippians one, to the Colossians one, to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one. Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles one book. Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealut, the Apostle one epistle.

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From Jurgens “Faith of the Fathers”, scroll to pg 406 for [this quote](http://books.google.com/books?id=l62q-d4Wi20C&pg=PA405&lpg=PA405&dq=The+Decree +of+Pope+St.+Damasus+I,+Council+of+Rome. +382+A.D&source=bl&ots=ZeUc7S4cIZ&sig=cU TkVsWkzas9JkjusNcC0I1H6Sc&hl=en&sa=X&ei= V2wUVMH3Fo2MyASvuILABQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBw#v =onepage&q=The%20Decree%20of%20Pope%20St .%20Damasus%20I%2C%20Council%20of%20Rome .%20382%20A.D&f=false).

.

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Sean77.

WHERE in Scripture do you find the verse . . . .

In the New Testament you will find the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Also Acts, Romans . . . .etc. Jude and Revelation.

Where is this verse Sean77?

 

[guanophore]

First post one scripture example teaching baptism of all adults was done by being immersed?

Actually this region of the Jordan often only has four inches of water. How do you know this does not mean Jesus came out of the stream onto the shore?

I can take it either way, as the CC teaches that full immersion is the fullest sign. But the early Christians made do with what was available. Many baptisms occurred in remote spots for privacy, or even in the catacombs.

Here is an example of someone newly converted being baptized by immersion as well. It doesn’t say water was poured onto his head, it says he went down into the water.
Acts 8:36-38
36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 [f]Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. A nd both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him

This does not say they were totally immersed either. The two could go down into the water even if there was not enough to immerse. In fact, we don’t even know if it was flowing water or a pond of some kind.

My point is that we tend to read into the text from our preconceived notions.

This Scripture has nothing to do with baptism, this is dealing with husbands and wives. Paul is talking about the husband covering his wife by washing with the Word.
Here is the verse in context:
Ephesians 5:25-28

Yes, Paul is addressing marital relationships, but he compares the relationship to that of Christ and His Holy Bride, the Church. People become members of His Body by washing with the Word. This is a reference to baptism.

 

[guanophore]

So they are being told to be baptized and to “call on the name of the Lord”. So clearly the Scripture is telling us that those who are being baptized should be calling on the name of the Lord, and I don’t know of any infant that can call on the name of the Lord. And there is nowhere in this Scripture where it says you can call on the Lord on someone else’s behalf to be saved.

We don’t really know how infants experience God, but certainly Christian baptism requires a profession of faith. The parents make this profession on behalf of the child.

As far as being active in the salvation of another:

1 Corinthians 7:16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?

Paul does not say it cannot happen, only that one does not know of it will.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Surely you don’t think Paul believes he is doing the saving?

Jude 1:23 “…save some, by snatching them out of the fire; …”

Luke 5:19 but finding no way to bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the midst before Jesus.

We do participate in the salvation of others. The friends of the paralytic, who was as helpless as an infant to come to Jesus, brought him to Jesus for salvation.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Why would the Jews who heard the Apostle think that some of their children were too young?

Again, the end of verse 39 says once again the need to call on the name of the Lord. Is is also saying that the promise of salvation is also for their children as well if their children call on the name of the Lord.
This Scripture does not even mention an act akin to christening.

We call upon the name of the lord in baptism. I don’t know what you mean by “christening”. But Peter says to them that they need to be baptized for the remission of sins, and that 3000 were baptized that day. How can you think this passage is NOT mentioning baptism?

 

[jlhargus]

jlhargus:

Also post one scripture teaching infants are born again at birth and not born of flesh only, at birth?

This is your own assertion, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.]

[Jn3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?]

 

[guanophore]

This is a Scripture on healing not absolution. Paul is telling us to confess our sins to each other, he does not specify priest nor does he touch on this confession leading to absolution. There is even a part in verse 14 where he does direct you to the elders of the church, but not for absolution or forgiveness but for healing.

The sacrament of anointing has always included absolution for this reason. What would be the purpose of calling upon the elders of the Church? I agree, it is too ambiguous to clarify how we understand the Sacrament, which we received through Sacred Tradition.

Does it not make more sense to confess ones’ sins to the person who is authorized by Christ to remit them?

There is not mention of absolution.

What do you think it means when it says “if he has committed any sins, they will be forgiven”?

Perhaps you have a different understanding of absolution?

I am curious, medwigel, if you are so opposed to the Catholic faith, what brings you to a Catholic forum?

 

[medwigel]

Actually this region of the Jordan often only has four inches of water. How do you know this does not mean Jesus came out of the stream onto the shore?

This point need not be argued since various sources, both historic and religious, all agree that baptism in the early Church was done by immersion. You can just Google this subject matter to ascertain this fact, so there is not point in arguing otherwise.

 

[medwigel]

Also post one scripture teaching infants are born again at birth and not born of flesh only, at birth?

These are things that happen by someone making a decision to be born again. It doesn’t say that this transformation happens passively on someone, such as an infant, who can’t claim it for themselves.

 

[medwigel]

As far as being active in the salvation of another:

1 Corinthians 7:16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?

Paul does not say it cannot happen, only that one does not know of it will.

Paul is telling the believer that their example in faith can hopefully get the unbeliever to be saved, but the believing spouse can’t get salvation for the non-believing spouse.
Paul is basically telling the believing spouse to not give up hope, that one day the other person will come to be saved on their own- that’s all they can do, demonstrate Christ through love, encourage the person in love and pray, but they can’t make the confession of salvation on their behalf.