Somebody claims the Catholic Church canonized heretics

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ddiemer.catholic said:
Remember, he’s dismissing the entire canonization process as a flawed procedure created by sinners who can and do make mistakes.
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Yeah, I remember. So how does he explain the miracles attributed to these men and women, which have led to their canonizations?
ddiemer.catholic said:
I suspect he may have deeper problems due to Pope Francis’ recent declarations, the on-going sex abuse crisis, our lackluster bishops, the malaise among the hierarchy to be shepherds, the refusal of the USCCB to denounce anti-Catholic beliefs by so-called “Catholic” politicians, etc.
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I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
 
ddiemer.catholic said:
I suspect he may have deeper problems due to …the on-going sex abuse crisis, …
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etc.
FrankFletcher said:
I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
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You appear to be making this remark in jest because something like that was said in the Casablanca movie. If you are in jest, I would have to disagree as i think it is pretty serious when a Roman Catholic priest is filming pornographic movies with witches and himself having sex on the altar of a consecrated Roman Catholic church.
 
Yeah, I forgot about that. So many of our Church leaders are lost their faith. Abp. Sheen did prophesy that the Church would be brought out of this crisis by the laity, not the clergy. And given that so many bishops suppress good priests, it’s easy to see why the hierarchy cannot lead us out of the mess.
 
AlNg said:
You appear to be making this remark in jest because something like that was said in the Casablanca movie. If you are in jest, I would have to disagree as i think it is pretty serious when a Roman Catholic priest is filming pornographic movies with witches and himself having sex on the altar of a consecrated Roman Catholic church.
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This is a complete strawman. No one here has claimed it’s totes cool when a priest films pornography on an altar. But if the actions of Judas make you disbelieve Christ, the problem is on you, not Christ.
 
JimG said:
St. Alphonsus is no heretic. It sounds like this guy may have a problem with Marian devotions.
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I think he may have a problem with the book The Glories of Mary:
Does it not say in the book: “At the command of Mary, all obey, even God" ?
I thought it was on page 155 of one edition of the book and was attributed to a saint?
 
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ddiemer.catholic said:
but that’s not proof regarding the intentional disregard of the Church for the “heresies” he claims Alphonsus or Maximillian wrote or believed.
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Being declared a saint means that person is in heaven. That person could have been a great sinner at some point in his or her life. That person has since earned their spot in heaven by the salvation offered by God.

Your friend misunderstands Church teachings.
 
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MNathaniel said:
Canonization only means the Church is able to declare that a person definitely made it to heaven. It doesn’t mean the Church claims the person never held a mistaken belief.
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I would point out that for modern canonizations, such as St. Alphonsus and St. Maximilian here, the Church does a thorough and complete review of the person’s written works as part of the canonization process, to make sure that the person was not writing or advocating anything contrary to faith or morals. This is typically done prior to declaring them “venerable”.

A person who was writing and teaching actual “heresy” would be highly unlikely to make it to canonization. The only way that could happen would be if the saint had been going around teaching heresy, then all of a sudden had some big conversion experience, reformed and rejected all their past heresy and repented and became a staunch Catholic, etc. For example, St. John Henry Newman converting to Catholicism.

Neither St. Alphonsus Liguori nor St. Maximilian Kolbe had any such conversion experience. They didn’t need to, because they weren’t speaking, writing, or teaching any heresies.

It appears that the OP’s friend has somehow fallen into the trap of sola scriptura, probably having been influenced by some misguided Protestant he talked to or read a book/ watched a video by. Furthermore, OP’s friend probably has one of those “Mary problems” we often see cropping up on this forum, where somebody decides that some work of Marian devotion/ theology is “not Biblical” or otherwise makes them uncomfortable because they see it as “too much Mary” or “putting Mary above God” or some other weird thing that it isn’t.

I will say that some of the writings of St. Maximilian Kolbe are pretty advanced views of Marian theology and are not for beginners or the faint of heart. Nevertheless, the man is a saint and Catholics are using his works to consecrate themselves to Mary daily. There’s nothing wrong or heretical about them in the eyes of the Church.
 
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AlNg said:
At the command of Mary, all obey, even God" ?
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The issue stems from a lack of understanding of Mary for many people. Yes, Mary is fully human and God is divine, but Mary doesn’t do anything except the will of God. It stems from the Davidic Kingdom and where the King says ‘Ask, Mother, for I cannot refuse you’ or words to that effect.

Also, if you have issues with understanding a particular saint, you’re not obligated to listen to them, just the church. As mentioned above, it’s pretty advanced stuff and not easy to approach for the beginner.
 
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AlNg said:
“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God" ?
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It happened in Scripture:

Luke 2: 48-51
48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety.” 49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”[a] 50 But they did not understand what he said to them. 51 He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
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Even aside from that, if Mary never desires anything but God’s Will, and God always grants what she asks for, then God’s just doing his own will by responding to her prayers.
Because she never asks for anything he doesn’t already will.

Nothing to see here (except the usual Protestants with “Mary problems”).
 
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sudy said:
Also, if you have issues with understanding a particular saint, you’re not obligated to listen to them, just the church.
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This is key. A lot of wise and holy saints have spilled a lot of ink over the centuries. Some have made outright (presumably sincere) mistakes in their writing. Some, while not wrong per se, have chosen to place emphasis in different places. These people were human.

It’s not shocking that when you’re talking about all the writings of the saints over the Church’s two thousand year history, you’re going to run across some that ring hollow with you, or even make you uncomfortable. I’m a cradle Catholic, and I’ve read things written by people who are holier than I am by miles and thought “yeesh, I wouldn’t say it like that””

But maybe that particular writing really resonates with someone else. It’s okay for us to particularly identify with some saints and not others.
 
Anyway, I’ve never found the idea that the Saints and even Doctors of the Church got some stuff wrong to be a major stumbling block. They were human; of course they occasionally got things messed up. No one would say Einstein wasn’t a great scientist because some of his ideas have since been revised or corrected.
 
You are claiming that St. Gregory of Narek was from the miaphysite church, a schismatic, and a material heretic? A claim is not proof. What proof are you offering?
 
I am sure there are many millions of heretics in heaven. Salvation does not turn on theological expertise - there will not be theology test at the Pearly Gates. Many Christians through the centuries firmly held beliefs that Catholics today reject. This is particularly true in the early Church when doctrines like Christology were still being developed.

Bottom line - that the Church believes someone is in heaven (which is what Sainthood means) has virtually nothing to do with theological purity.
 
TMC said:
I am sure there are many millions of heretics in heaven. Salvation does not turn on theological expertise - there will not be theology test at the Pearly Gates.
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Heresy though isn’t a sin of a lack of intelligence. It is the obstinate denial of truth taught by the Church after one has been baptized. It is persisting in error even when the Church has told you you’re wrong. Saints do not deny Church teaching after it has been defined.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm
"“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;”
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It’s not that easy. As I understand it, there is significant evidence that St. Gregory of Narek did not reject the Council of Chalcedon. In any event there does not seem to be much, if any, evidence that he went around promoting the heretical view.


I realize that saying this is not going to change anybody’s mind, and that there are plenty of folks who still want to call him a heretic because it suits their agenda. Like this guy, who seems all hung up on relativism. I choose to trust the two Popes involved with this decision, myself. They are guided by God in a manner that some author who wants to create controversy and division is not.
 
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