Someone, Anyone, please help me!

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StratusRose

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I’m on a Protestant board refuting contraception and these people keep telling me that NFP is just an excuse and/or cop out. They even say that the Onan example is irrelevant because it’s open to too much interpretation. I’m really being ganged up on in there, so if someone could back me up I’d really appreciate it! Lisa4Catholics, TarAshly, I’m looking in your direction!
 
God made us in His own image and likeness, male and female He made us.

God designed our sexual biology to function a certain way. But apparently that’s not good enough for some people. They want to re-design themselves and “correct” God’s “mistake.” And so they put chemicals into their bodies or barriers between themselves to counteract God’s design. They’ll even have their bodies cut open to destroy God’s handiwork.

NFP works *within *God’s design. Contraception works outside it.
 
I kinda liked this little article…

Donald DeMarco, Ph.D., a professor of philosophy at the University of St. Jerome’s, Ontario, Canada, has taught the philosophy behind NFP for several years. In a recent article in International Review of Natural Family Planning, Dr. DeMarco says that he’s always being asked by students, “What is the moral difference between abstaining from sex and using contraception? The intention and the end are identical in both instances - the avoidance of pregnancy.”

When he responded by pointing out that “abstinence does not interfere with the reproductive system in any way, whereas contraception does”, students would yawn. When he tried “periodic abstinence respects bodily integrity of the married couple, whereas contraception does not”, students would accuse him of splitting hairs.

One day, a your woman with “dark and intent eyes” asked him, quite seriously, to explain once again the distinction. Inspired by a genuine question, and idea sprang into his mind.

He relates, “I started with an analogy. Let us say that you and your fiance are making up a wedding invitation list. There are certain acquaintances of yours that you are not going to invite (obviously you cannot invite everyone you know). There are two things you can do. The first is the traditional approach: simply do not send these people invitations. The second approach is not at all conventional but would nonetheless achieve the same effect: send out notices telling them not to come, that their presence at the wedding is undesired.”

"Now, put yourself in the shoes of an acquaintence who receives a note telling her not to come to the wedding:“Dear Jan Doe, Tom and I are getting married next month and we want you to know that you are not invited to the wedding. We don’t want you, so please don’t come.” Would you feel differently receiving such a note as opposed to simply not receiving an invitation?

“My student acknowledged that apart from its unusualness, she would indeed feel differently in getting a “disinvitation.” In fact, as she admitted, she would feel insulted, whereas not getting an invitation would leave her, at the most, only disappointed. She also agreed that one would have to be pretty dense not to see an important moral and psychological difference between these two techniques for achieving the same end…”

“To tie the analogy in with NFP and contraception, I suggested the NFP couple that does not want a child just then, simply does not send out an invitation for a child; that is, they refrain from sexual intercourse, which is an act whose very nature is ordinated to the invitation or invocation of new life. The contracepting couple, on the other hand, by using a contraceptive is sending the message that a new life is undesired.”

“My student paused for a moment, looked up at me and said with a straightforward, emotionless countenance: “You’re right.” I was stunned, but recovered soon enough to be pleased by her response. Yet, I had not completed the analogy.”

“Now, enlisting the power of your imagination, put yourself in the position of the Creator. The abstaining couple who is practicing NFP is acting in such a way that they are not calling upon God’s creative act at that time. We cannot imagine God being insulted or dishonored here. The couple is simply not performing an action whose nature is ordained to elicit God’s creative act. God is still present, still respected, but no invitation is sent to Him that would invoke His presence in the specific form of His being a Creator of new life. Contrariwise, the contracepting couple, by using contraception, is sending an explicit message to God that His creative presence is not desired. Because He receives a “disinvitation” in the form of a contraceptive signal, we might easily imagine that He would be insulted.”
Sex with contraception is lying to God with our bodies.
 
Thanks so much! I used both of them for the thread. I hope you don’t mind me plagiarizing. 😃

Anyone else got some good info??
 
I am following the thread (with much interest) and have found all the people to be amazingly kind in their debate tactics. This isn’t the normal Catholic- non Catholic debate.

I did see you used the above posts. I’m curious to see what their reaction is. Some may just plain deny- in which case you’d be better off just showing Christian charity and agreeing to disagree. I think you’ve put up enough points to affect lurkers and others who may not be directly involved in the debate.

I always try to remember that my words my not be getting through to the person I’m directly debating, but that someone reading the conversation who has less “passionate” objections to my points, might eventually be swayed to my point. I believe there may be A LOT of people on this board like this.

There is also a thread on this board regarding that fine line between Contraception and NFP.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=59354&page=1&pp=20

I’m sure there are A LOT of points on that thread that could defeat any point thrown at you on the other thread.

I couldn’t figure out how to register for that board or I’d help post…
 
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Shiann:
I am following the thread (with much interest) and have found all the people to be amazingly kind in their debate tactics. This isn’t the normal Catholic- non Catholic debate.

I did see you used the above posts. I’m curious to see what their reaction is. Some may just plain deny- in which case you’d be better off just showing Christian charity and agreeing to disagree. I think you’ve put up enough points to affect lurkers and others who may not be directly involved in the debate.

I always try to remember that my words my not be getting through to the person I’m directly debating, but that someone reading the conversation who has less “passionate” objections to my points, might eventually be swayed to my point. I believe there may be A LOT of people on this board like this.

There is also a thread on this board regarding that fine line between Contraception and NFP.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=59354&page=1&pp=20

I’m sure there are A LOT of points on that thread that could defeat any point thrown at you on the other thread.

I couldn’t figure out how to register for that board or I’d help post…
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Thanks again. You’re right, they are very friendly people. But they still frustrate me! My head gets dizzy when I read the responses. If you want to register, click here
 
I would recommend a careful read of two of John Paul II books - “Theology of the Body” and “Love and Responsibility”. The first one is a relative easy read, while the second one is a bit difficult. But both are great.
 
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StratusRose:
I’m on a Protestant board refuting contraception and these people keep telling me that NFP is just an excuse and/or cop out. They even say that the Onan example is irrelevant because it’s open to too much interpretation. I’m really being ganged up on in there, so if someone could back me up I’d really appreciate it! Lisa4Catholics, TarAshly, I’m looking in your direction!

[](http://www.relevantmagazine.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=12274)
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Go to the Couple to Couple League. www.ccli.org

There is great information here. This is the organization I took my training from for NFP.
 
I did register, and I did post.

I think you were correct in asking this person to agree to disagree. I believe them to be one of the “passionate” I spoke of earlier.

Sometimes on an online forum, there isn’t much time for contemplation, we are so anxious to get our words out so that the other person sees our argument.

Maybe this person just needs some time for contemplation on the ideas you offered.

I think everything you wrote was right on, and you did it in a very charitable manner.

:blessyou:
 
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Shiann:
I did register, and I did post.

I think you were correct in asking this person to agree to disagree. I believe them to be one of the “passionate” I spoke of earlier.

Sometimes on an online forum, there isn’t much time for contemplation, we are so anxious to get our words out so that the other person sees our argument.

Maybe this person just needs some time for contemplation on the ideas you offered.

I think everything you wrote was right on, and you did it in a very charitable manner.

:blessyou:
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You’re the best. I saw what you posted and it was like a breath of fresh air. Thanks for coming to my aid!
 
When I first started investigating this issue myself, I was surprised to learn that until the 1930’s, ALL Christian churches and denominations condemned the practice of artificial birth control. In fact, the Reformers were almost unanimously against it as well. This argument may not carry much with with your readers, but it did with me. Maybe you can try that out and see what response you get, but it sounds like you’re up against people who aren’t using reason and logic, just emotion. Hope this helps.

JU
 
StratusRose almost immediately played that card, and no one even batted an eye at it… 😦

The biggest dissenter (of the NFP position) has the idea that NFP and ABC are equivalent. That is they BOTH prevent pregnancy in a deliberate way. Regardless of the points offered along other stronger debate points FOR NFP, they fall back on the “they are the same” argument.

:🤷: You can lead a horse to water…
 
Bump.

Still need you guys. One guy even said that birth control was sent to us by God because children are more burdensome to raise now than they were in the old days.
 
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StratusRose:
Bump.

Still need you guys. One guy even said that birth control was sent to us by God because children are more burdensome to raise now than they were in the old days.
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And yet God continues to create those children in His own image and likeness.

Hmmmmmmm.
 
“Still need you guys. One guy even said that birth control was sent to us by God because children are more burdensome to raise now than they were in the old days.”

Burdensome? Is this a Christian forum? If so, you could remind him to take up his cross and follow Jesus, and to unit his sufferings to Christ!

Also, if folks can’t see the connection between the acceptance of contraception into our culture in 1930 and the breakdown of marriage and family I can’t imagine how else to convince them!

Sex has become a play thing in which we are no longer willing to accept responsibility for, or to suffer the consequences for in the choices we make.

Birthcontrol enables sexual immorality, NFP does not…how many couples involved in an adulterous relationship would have the where-with-all to do the work it takes to practice NFP?
 
Shiann and I joined forces to relay that message, Ptero. We succeeded in that the dissenter said that we gave him a lot to think about. The discussion is pretty much over now. We ended on good terms. I think the guy will see the truth in time. We gave him so much information and theology to chew on for months. But I got to say, the discussion would not have thrived with out Shiann. She’s the best, east or west! (Nerdy comment, I know 🤓 )

Thanks to everyone else who contributed thoughts!
 
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StratusRose:
Shiann and I joined forces to relay that message, Ptero. We succeeded in that the dissenter said that we gave him a lot to think about. The discussion is pretty much over now. We ended on good terms. I think the guy will see the truth in time. We gave him so much information and theology to chew on for months. But I got to say, the discussion would not have thrived with out Shiann. She’s the best, east or west! (Nerdy comment, I know 🤓 )

Thanks to everyone else who contributed thoughts!
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:blessyou:

(Tell that to my 9 year old!)

:rotfl:
 
The Truth About Contraception

Contraception, the deliberate action of using a condom, taking “the pill”, or other barrier devices and abortifacients to render the conception of a child impossible, is Gravely sinful.
WHOA! Is that so?! YES! The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us so in paragraph 2370: “Every action…to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil.”

Contraception is opposed to TRUE LOVE, because true love in a marriage gives TOTALLY of oneself, including fertility. True love created life and nurtures it. Ultimately, contraception is the selfish use of a marriage partners body for pleasure and the refusal to be open to God’s creative will. This is an abuse of our sexuality which is designed to create children and to foster intimacy in the marriage.

Check it out! This has been the constant Catholic Church teaching since the time of Christ. Yet, even well-known Protestant detested Contraception. Martin Luther called it “More atrocious than incest or adultery…a sodomitic sin,” and Calvin regarded it as a form of homicide!

Virtually all Christian religious believed contraception was immoral for 19 centuries until the Anglican Church allowed it in the 1930! Most other Christian religions soon followed. However, the Catholic Church reinforced the immorality of contraception three times this century through papal encyclicals in 1930, 1968, & 1981.

In cases where there’s a serious reason for married couples to space births, Natural Family Planning is morally acceptable, because it respects God’s natural creative order and the dignity of persons.

catholicspot.com/youth_guys_page.htm
 
It is so funny how each of these types of debates takes the same paths…

Now it is an argument against populating the planet…

I fear that the more ridiculous these rebuttal claims get- the more pointless the discussion becomes. But I find it hard to leave wild claims left hanging without commenting on the other side.

“Birth Control is ok, because before the Industrial Revolution (when contraception was ok’d) children were contributing economically to their families at a VERY early age. They were an economic ‘boon’ to their families. Now children are older and older before they contribute to society- this creates a financial burden on their families which is why so many families need to use contraception to not have any more expensive kids!”

:eek:

Another, after showing them the fact that many orthodox Jews understand the Onan passage similarly to Catholics:

“Well are we going to suddenly revert back to wearing goofy hats and long sideburns now?”

:whacky:

::Oh good grief… I should’a had a V-8::

<>
:banghead:
 
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Shiann:
It is so funny how each of these types of debates takes the same paths…

Now it is an argument against populating the planet…

I fear that the more ridiculous these rebuttal claims get- the more pointless the discussion becomes. But I find it hard to leave wild claims left hanging without commenting on the other side.

“Birth Control is ok, because before the Industrial Revolution (when contraception was ok’d) children were contributing economically to their families at a VERY early age. They were an economic ‘boon’ to their families. Now children are older and older before they contribute to society- this creates a financial burden on their families which is why so many families need to use contraception to not have any more expensive kids!”

:eek:

Another, after showing them the fact that many orthodox Jews understand the Onan passage similarly to Catholics:

“Well are we going to suddenly revert back to wearing goofy hats and long sideburns now?”

:whacky:

::Oh good grief… I should’a had a V-8::

<>
:banghead:
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Gee that’s funny, I always thought that the Industrial Revolution took place in the late 1800s, not the 1930s. :whacky:

Aren’t those people a hoot? They argue against EVERYTHING we say! “Uhhh, well the Onan passage doesn’t apply because…uh…it’s open to too much interpretation…” I just want to say to them, WHO GAVE YOU THAT AUTHORITY IN THE FIRST PLACE!? They act like the Bible is a book of poems.

Sorry, I needed some place to vent.
 
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