Someone can lose their salvation?

[paul_c]

First of all, thank you Howie for taking the time and effort to answer. That allows for fruitful dialog and mutual understanding.

Well Paul, I cited specific passages, for each point that I made; so you’re right, Eph 1: 13-14, says nothing about future sins, but supports the point concerning the sealing of the Spirit; do you understand?

And it’s not a “first installment,” but an “arrhabōn,” an “earnest,” or part payment in advance for security. That’s another part of the good news of the Gospel, and it’s God who makes the earnest, not me. He’s the guarantor of the not fading away spot He’s reserved for me in heaven” (1 Pet 1:3-5), and not me. Again, more good news.

I don’t know that a first installment is any different than a part payment in advance for security. In either case, it means that the “payment” is not yet complete. It will be completed through works of charity. And we Catholics agree with the Sealing of the Spirit. But you CAN turn away from the spirit, through sin…

Forgive me, but the “good news” you’re wanting me to believe, is not good news at all AFAIC.

Getting a free pass to heaven by Believing in Jesus is wonderful news - except for the part that its a half truth. As you can see in numerous scriptural verses, we need to demonstrate our faith through works as part of the sanctifying process. You may argue that its not a requirement for salvation but instead people being saved will always do good works. To me, the results are the same. Those that are saved will do good works and strive for holiness. Whether its a reason for salvation or a fruit of salvation is immaterial.

And that’s not the only place in scripture that states one is saved to do good works; is it? :nope:

However, That’s not the point I’m making from the passage. The point I’m making from that passage, once again because you missed it the first time, is that once one believes, he’s alive to Christ, and dead to the law—the law has no claim upon him any longer. More good news.

But what does this really mean, dead to the law? Is he talking about the dietary laws and circumcision or is he talking about the 10 commandments? Because you know in Matthew 19: 15-19, In answer to the question of what is needed to gain eternal life, Jesus responds (paraphrasing) " follow the commandments". I can’t see Paul second guessing Jesus on this, can you? Therefore he must be talking about the levitical laws. Paul was always keen to separate Christianity from Judaism because he know that circumcision was an impediment to conversion for the Gentiles and he also knew that the new covenant with God was done through Baptism, not circumcision.

Look at all the wonderful things the Father has done for His adopted children. It’s truly amazing! :extrahappy:

yes. I agree.

Again, there are other areas in Scripture that speak to the obligation of a believer to be baptized, but that’s not the purpose for my citing the passage.

The passage states that all of my transgressions were forgiven on the cross. That’s a comprehensive statement, seeing as how I was predestined in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:1ff; cf Rom 8:29).

At that time, all of my life was yet future, and yet, God knew what all my life would be, including my as yet uncommitted sins—each and every one of my transgressions.

Not only that, Paul reiterates what he said in Romans 7; namely, the law can’t touch me anymore! I’ve died to the law! There’s no more guilt ever! God is not a welsher! God is faithful! And the promies of God are not “yes, and no,” but “YES” (2 Cor 1:18-20)! More good news!

look, we all agree that Christ died for us for the forgiveness of sins. However, if we don’t repent after our sins are forgiven, then all is lost.

Would that you would have taken the time to understand my position, rather than being concerned only with stating yours (which I’m familiar with), thereby insuring your continuation in ignorance of all that I’ve said, or will say.

I’ve taken the time to buy, read, mark-up and post-it, a copy of the CCC so that I made have some understanding of what you believe, and so that I might attempt to make somewhat reasonable, albeit sometimes heated criticisms against that with which I disagree.

I’m glad you are learning about our Faith but I would caution you not to judge the rest of us. You really don’t know how much effort we put into this or how much we’ve been exposed to other points of view.

No you don’t Paul, you must first believe, and you can’t believe without having the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14; 1 Cor 12:3; cf Eph 1:13ff).

Baptism is subsequent to belief, read Acts: repent, believe, be baptized.

All you’ve done, AFAIC, is state your position.

In the Catholic church, baptism for adults is subsequent to belief as you have stated. But Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, including original sin with which we are all stained. For this reason, Cathtolic parents have their infant children baptized, thus freeing them from sin. later, after Catechism and reaching an age where they can make their own choice to believe, they will be confirmed.

And I will say that I’m a little fuzzy on how someone comes to believe. Does man really have a choice on what they believe or is it part of their soul, thus a pure gift from God? I really don’t know .

 

[SHW]

With respect to the 2 Peter passage, you haven’t made the case that those spoken of are true believers. If you begin at the beginning of the passage, they are defined as false teachers. False teachers are, by definition, false in everyway, including their profession of faith. All unbelievers turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. OTHO, believers receive the commandment.

Hi Howie,

2 Peter 1:1 “Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, **To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” **

Peter is addressing those (believers) who have obtained “precious faith with us” and he is telling them to beware of false teachers who will be coming in among them. These false teachers were once one of them (believers), but they will become false teachers because they have gone astray after they were justified. In other words, they are heretics. 2 Peter 2:1

Galatians 1:8 “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

Peter states that these false teachers, had previously “come to the knowledge of the truth” (they were justified) but they have since gone astray.

2 Peter 2:15 "They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet…

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

These were believers at one time, but then they went astray. You have to adhere to a teaching first before you can go astray from it.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

What does it mean to be “in Christ?”

1 John 3:24 “Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”

John tells us that the person who keeps God’s commandments abides in Him and He in him. In other words, one must obey the commandments in order to claim that you are abiding “in Him (Christ).”

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him”

We “love” Jesus by keeping His commandments. If we keep His commandments, then we will be loved by His Father.

1 John 3:22 “And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.”

We must keep God’s commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight if we expect to receive what we ask from Him.

1 John 4:21 “And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.”

Mark 12:29-31 “Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

We have to love both God and brother (neighbor) in order to be in obedience to His commandments.

1 John 2:3 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.”

If we do not keep His commandments, then we do not “know” God.

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

John states that we are liars, if we say that we know Him but we fail to keep His commandments.

What happens to liars?

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

In order to know God, and to love God, and to abide in Him, we must keep His commandments.

If we say that we know God but we do not keep His commandments, then we are liars.

If we say that we love God but we do not keep His commandments, then we are liars.

If we say that we abide in Christ but we do not keep His commandments, then we are liars.

If we say that we love God, but we do not love our neighbor, then we do not love God and we are liars.

All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

Matthew 19:17 “if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

This is not a suggestion; you must obey the commandments if you want to enter eternal life.

Obeying God’s commandments is mandatory in order to inherit eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Peter is addressing those (believers) who have obtained “precious faith with us” and he is telling them to beware of false teachers who will be coming in among them. These false teachers were once one of them (believers), but they will become false teachers because they have gone astray after they were justified. In other words, they are heretics. 2 Peter 2:1

That’s a re-word.

SHW:

Peter states that these false teachers, had previously “come to the knowledge of the truth” (they were justified) but they have since gone astray.

Where does Peter state that?

SHW:

These were believers at one time, but then they went astray. You have to adhere to a teaching first before you can go astray from it.

That’s an interesting opinion. Don’t know how you got there, though.

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

I don’t know that a first installment is any different than a part payment in advance for security. In either case, it means that the “payment” is not yet complete. It will be completed through works of charity. And we Catholics agree with the Sealing of the Spirit. But you CAN turn away from the spirit, through sin…

The difference Paul, is that I’ve brought out the lexical definition of the Greek word. It’s an earnest with a promise of the final payment—it’s a unilateral payment made by God. I didn’t make the initial earnest payment with a promise to make the final payment, God did, as I pointed out. You don’t agree with that, so don’t say that you do.

What you agree with as far as the sealing of the Spirit is that it’s conditional, and that the completed payment of the earnest is based not upon what God has promised, but upon what you must do: works of charity, and no sin.

As far as turning away from God, one of the provisions of the new covenant is a fear of God placed in the believer by God so that the believer ”will not turn away from Me” (Jer 32:40).

Nevertheless, I’m not telling you what you believe, you’ve stated that belief above.
paul c:

Getting a free pass to heaven by Believing in Jesus is wonderful news - except for the part that its a half truth.

It’s not a free pass, Paul, but a free gift (Rom 3:24; 6:23), and it was quite costly.
paul c:

As you can see in numerous scriptural verses, we need to demonstrate our faith through works as part of the sanctifying process.

For the Catholic sanctification and justification are synonymous, and yet, I never hear a Catholic state “we need to demonstrate our faith through works as part of the process of justification." Why do think that is when they’re the same? The latter would certainly invoke greater opposition to CC soteriology I would think.

Also, if I’m not mistaken, the Sixth Session of Trent has anathematized the latter statement as well. I’ll have to check that again.

Nevertheless, it’s clearly stated in Rom 3 that no one will be justified on the basis of works of law.
paul c:

You may argue that its not a requirement for salvation but instead people being saved will always do good works. To me, the results are the same. Those that are saved will do good works and strive for holiness. Whether its a reason for salvation or a fruit of salvation is immaterial.

I don’t believe it’s immaterial at all. I think the consequences of getting it wrong are fatal; I think I stated that earlier to ncgolf, if memory serves me. Understanding drives worship, which must be in Spirit, and in truth—there’s no room for error.
paul c:

But what does this really mean, dead to the law? Is he talking about the dietary laws and circumcision or is he talking about the 10 commandments? Because you know in Matthew 19: 15-19, In answer to the question of what is needed to gain eternal life, Jesus responds (paraphrasing) " follow the commandments". I can’t see Paul second guessing Jesus on this, can you? Therefore he must be talking about the levitical laws. Paul was always keen to separate Christianity from Judaism because he know that circumcision was an impediment to conversion for the Gentiles and he also knew that the new covenant with God was done through Baptism, not circumcision.

I’ve pointed out, several times, that it’s the 10 commandments. Paul says “I would not have known about coveting, if the law had not said, YOU SHALL NOT COVET” (Rom 7:7).

As far as the meaning of dead to the law, it means the law carries no penalty for those in Christ. For example, in our legal system, if a man sentenced to death, dies in prison days, months, or years before his execution date, the law and sentence has no further claim on him. IOW, it can’t kill him when he’s dead. That’s what Paul’s saying in Romans 7: the believer is dead to the law.

this is long and continues…

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

look, we all agree that Christ died for us for the forgiveness of sins. However, if we don’t repent after our sins are forgiven, then all is lost.

Paul, that’s backwards. One repents, and then his sin is forgiven. Repentance in the Greek means, at it’s core, a “change of mind.” A change of mind concerning God and sin. One goes from desiring and preferring sin to desiring and preferring God. However, there resides within the new nature of each believer a law of evil and sin (Rom 7:21-23). Thus, the believer is conflicted being involved in an internal war between the Spirit and the flesh. At times, he walks in the Spirit, and at other times in the flesh (Gal 5:16,17). This is what sanctification and mortification of the flesh is all about.

God knows all about this struggle with which His people contend. He doesn’t toss them away when they stumble and fall.
paul c:

I’m glad you are learning about our Faith but I would caution you not to judge the rest of us. You really don’t know how much effort we put into this or how much we’ve been exposed to other points of view.

I understand that Paul, and I try my best to limit my criticism to the theology, and not the person.
paul c:

In the Catholic church, baptism for adults is subsequent to belief as you have stated. But Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, including original sin with which we are all stained. For this reason, Cathtolic parents have their infant children baptized, thus freeing them from sin. later, after Catechism and reaching an age where they can make their own choice to believe, they will be confirmed.

I know.
paul c:

And I will say that I’m a little fuzzy on how someone comes to believe. Does man really have a choice on what they believe or is it part of their soul, thus a pure gift from God? I really don’t know

I’m not quite sure what you’re asking, but will stab lightly at it. Scripturally, faith is a gift from God (Eph 2:8; Php 1:29). The logical extension of that is if ones faith is truly from God, one will know the truth that saves.

 

[paul_c]

Howie,
Lets see how far we really are apart.

I think we can agree that Salvation begins with Faith and that this is a gift from God. I would say that this Faith is first pronounced through Baptism. You would probably say that it is pronounced when someone acknowledges they are born again.

In any case, at this point, whether by Baptism or by some acclamation of being born again, we are justified by Faith through Grace.

Now I believe that both of us would expect the justified to do God’s will, following the commandments and acting out of love for God and Man. I would say that this is a requirement to stay in the state of Grace and be saved. In my sotierology, if man fails to stay in the state of grace, he is condemned. In yours, I think you would say that if someone didn’t live a good life, then they simply were not really saved to begin with. So,in both cases, I believe that we actually require works to demonstrate faith. In yours, demonstrating faith is actually showing that you are one of the elect. In ours, it is staying in the state of Grace.

So although the mechanisms are described differently, I think we both would expect the elect to be faithful and to do good works.

The one fundamental difference between us, is probably in the use of the sacraments. We require Baptism to be saved (either physical or desired in exceptional cases where the actual baptism can not be performed), while you apparently do not. (although most Protestant churches do practice Baptism).
We also offer the sacrament of reconciliation to allow those that have fallen into sin to regain sanctifying Grace and be saved.

I’m not sure what your view would be for those that are born again and subsequently sin. Are those people just assumed to have never been among the elect? Or can they be re-born again? Or maybe you believe that sin, post - being born again just doesn’t matter?

 

[ncgolf]

Off for some R and R and this thread will be cut off soon … so thanks to Guan, Moon, Broski, Paul, SHW … et al … I have enjoyed it and learned quite a bit.

Peace.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Off for some R and R and this thread will be cut off soon … so thanks to Guan, Moon, Broski, Paul, SHW … et al … I have enjoyed it and learned quite a bit.

Peace.

Thread over 1,000 post limit and closed.