AG:No, because if nothing existed, then something would exist, that is, nothing, so there wouldn’t be nothing, there’d be something, which is nothing, so something exists and always has existed, so there never has been nothing, since if nothing exists, something exists.
Er, yeah.
Something like that.
Sarah x
For a thing to come into existence, it must come from an action that previously existed, since a thing always comes from another thing and never from a previous no-thing. The universe and all that’s in it could never have experienced a time when something previously did not exist, since not a thing would have exited then. And since a no-thing can neither think about things nor see, hear, smell, taste, or make something, it is logically impossible for it to have created anything.
Yes, no-thing did not create something. God created something. But God does not occupy space or time, so in creating something, he created space and time and however many dimensions are necessary to go with it. And since God does not live in space or time, there is no “before” or “after” creation.
God grants existence in an absolute sense, so that something exists that was absolutely nothing before- not only physically but spiritually (non-physical) as well- nothing at all- non-existence. God grants our existence and sustains us in existence. To be clear, Catholicism teaches that God brings things into existence from absolute nothingness- that’s why it’s called creation and differentiated from any form of making something from pre-existent realities. God grants the realities to begin with because it belongs to him alone to exist-he doesn’t need anything to exist prior in order to create.
Agreed.
It sounds like you are saying “nothing” is a figure of speech for the lack of or opposite of something. Is that what you mean?Agreed.
It is impossible for something to come into existence from nothing because “nothing” simply does not exit; therefore, it is powerless (unlike God) to bring something into existence from nonexistence. But it is logically possible for an eternal and omnipotent God to create from nonexistence something that did not exist until then.
Are you saying something coming from nothing is a logically invalid statement?
No. I was trying to convey in the post that the word nothing literally means nothingness and thus to mean the opposite of the word something - but not in the “figure of speech” meaning of the word. I think that Aristotle has a great definition of the word nothing: he writes that “Nothing is what rocks dream about.” The word nothing then truly and literally means, “not any thing: no thing” (Merriam-Webster); therefore, creation from true nothingness can only indicate the existence of an eternal, omnipotent God.
If you are saying that God created an “act of reality” where there was a negation of that act, without any physical materials or spiritual nature from God, then you are saying that it is in principle possible to get something from nothing.
Why is it logically possible simply because God is omnipotent? Being omnipotent does not mean that God can do logical contradictions.
I don’t get what ‘‘illogic’’ (I know it’s not a real word- but just go with it) you mean. By God granting existence, he is literally granting reality to non-reality. He is granting the quality of being to nothing- That’s creation. To say that God ‘‘creates’’ from pre-existence realities, you are saying either that there’s more than the one thing (God) that must exist, from which God creates others- or that all things are God (monism or pantheism- God alone exists, or all is God-whatever suits you) so that creation is merely manifestations of God. But we believe in a real creation, God granting actual existence outside himself that is not himself, though he’s immanent to it. That’s what St Thomas taught.
illogic ɪˈlɒdʒɪk]
Getting something from nothing. That is a logical contradiction.
Creation as you interpret it is irrational.
Is this contradiction presupposing something from nothing in a physical sense as the initial responses to my post postulated? Also, what is your solution?
Marybeloved:
I think that it is a contradiction to say that nothing brought something into existence, since nothing is non-existent and therefore powerless to bring anything into existence; but it isn’t a contradiction to say that an eternally pre-existing, omnipotent God brought something into existence from nonexistence. No-thing cannot move itself to create a single thing; but God certainly has the ability to create something out of nothing.
If you do not have a thing from which to produce another thing, from what do you produce a thing? Nothing is not real. It is not an object which can be moved to actuality. You have not explained why I should think that omnipotence justifies thinking that God can produce a being out of nothing at all. You are merely asserting that such is the case.