Something I pondered as a former non-Catholic. Your thoughts:

[joe370]

All Catholics and non-Catholics are familiar with the following:

Jesus, by carrying our sins and suffering for our transgressions, freed the world from spiritual imprisonment thereby achieving eternal salvation for all who pick up their cross and follow Him. He cancelled the debt, repaired our broken relationship and restored our status with the Father by dying on the cross, making us heirs of God and co-heirs with Him. Jesus’ death on the cross took away the punishment which would have been total and eternal separation from God, in hell, if not for His atoning work on the cross.

With the new covenant in place, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, can now have their sins forgiven and follow Jesus into eternity, which means that even if a person was a murderer or a serial killer, for example, his entire life, but eventually comes to accept Jesus as his savior just before his demise, then all of his sins are forgiven and heaven awaits him, since “He himself bore our sins…by his wounds you have been healed.”

Something I pondered as a former non-Catholic. Your thoughts:

Does it seem reasonable and scriptural to non-Catholics (because it didn’t to me as a former non-Catholic) - that God would rescind divine justice regarding** the consequences **of the murderer/serial killer’s sins that Jesus bore and forgave once he accepted Jesus (and was baptized for most non-Catholics) - as his one and only savior?

Did Jesus also bear, and wipe away the consequences of the hypothetical man’s forgiven sins at the same time he forgave his sins? In other words, we are accountable for absolutely nothing regarding the consequences of our forgiven sins?

 

[Miriam1947]

All Catholics and non-Catholics are familiar with the following:

Jesus, by carrying our sins and suffering for our transgressions, freed the world from spiritual imprisonment thereby achieving eternal salvation for all who pick up their cross and follow Him. He cancelled the debt, repaired our broken relationship and restored our status with the Father by dying on the cross, making us heirs of God and co-heirs with Him. Jesus’ death on the cross took away the punishment which would have been total and eternal separation from God, in hell, if not for His atoning work on the cross.

With the new covenant in place, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, can now have their sins forgiven and follow Jesus into eternity, which means that even if a person was a murderer or a serial killer, for example, his entire life, but eventually comes to accept Jesus as his savior just before his demise, then all of his sins are forgiven and heaven awaits him, since “He himself bore our sins…by his wounds you have been healed.”

Something I pondered as a former non-Catholic. Your thoughts:

Does it seem reasonable and scriptural to non-Catholics (because it didn’t to me as a former non-Catholic) - that God would rescind divine justice regarding** the consequences **of the murderer/serial killer’s sins that Jesus bore and forgave once he accepted Jesus (and was baptized for most non-Catholics) - as his one and only savior?

Did Jesus also bear, and wipe away the consequences of the hypothetical man’s forgiven sins at the same time he forgave his sins? In other words, we are accountable for absolutely nothing regarding the consequences of our forgiven sins?

Baptism washes away ALL SIN no matter how horrible. But, and this is a big one, there must be true belief and for already baptized persons true repentance. It’s not as if you can fool God.

The parable about the landowner and the workers who came late but were paid the same wage. This is what the parable is talking about. It’s the same thing.

 

[kimbari]

I think that’s what Purgatory is for.

 

[Cryptic1]

If you watched the movie “The Passion” by Mel Gibson, you will see the kind of horrific death Jesus endured in order to satisfy God’s wrath. Since then, I have come to believe that Jesus’ death on the cross atoned for our sins in a way that most people cannot fully comprehend.

By suffering and dying on the cross, Jesus took all of our sins, (past, present and future), all of our illnesses (past, present and future), all of our guilt (past, present and future–do you get the picture?) and laid it at the foot of the cross. From the beginning of creation til the moment of Jesus’ crucifixtion, God’s fiery wrath and justice was finally appeased. By dying for us on the cross, all debts to God had been paid in full and humanity had just been given a free pass to enter again into the gates of heaven.

I was led to the words of the good thief on the cross who, alongside with another thief, lay awaiting his death. In Luke 23:41-43 the thief says, “And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He (Jesus) replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

If Jesus could forgive the good thief on the cross who had committed a crime punishable only by death, then who are we to stand in judgement on another? Only God can judge. All we can do is follow in Jesus’ footsteps and learn from him. All the rest is up to God.

Jesus Rocks

 

[Miriam1947]

If you watched the movie “The Passion” by Mel Gibson, you will see the kind of horrific death Jesus endured in order to satisfy God’s wrath. Since then, I have come to believe that Jesus’ death on the cross atoned for our sins in a way that most people cannot fully comprehend.

By suffering and dying on the cross, Jesus took all of our sins, (past, present and future), all of our illnesses (past, present and future), all of our guilt (past, present and future–do you get the picture?) and laid it at the foot of the cross. From the beginning of creation til the moment of Jesus’ crucifixtion, God’s fiery wrath and justice was finally appeased. By dying for us on the cross, all debts to God had been paid in full and humanity had just been given a free pass to enter again into the gates of heaven.

I was led to the words of the good thief on the cross who, alongside with another thief, lay awaiting his death. In Luke 23:41-43 the thief says, “And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He (Jesus) replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

If Jesus could forgive the good thief on the cross who had committed a crime punishable only by death, then who are we to stand in judgement on another? Only God can judge. All we can do is follow in Jesus’ footsteps and learn from him. All the rest is up to God.

Jesus Rocks

Do you believe in OSAS?

 

[joe370]

Baptism washes away ALL SIN no matter how horrible. But, and this is a big one, there must be true belief and for already baptized persons true repentance. It’s not as if you can fool God.

The parable about the landowner and the workers who came late but were paid the same wage. This is what the parable is talking about. It’s the same thing.

So the consequences of all those forgiven sins are instantaneously removed along with the sins, due to the grace of God, leading to instantaneous admission into heaven for the hypothetical serial killer, upon his demise? In other words, no disciplinary consequences for his forgiven sins?

 

[joe370]

If you watched the movie “The Passion” by Mel Gibson, you will see the kind of horrific death Jesus endured in order to satisfy God’s wrath.

Since then, I have come to believe that Jesus’ death on the cross atoned for our sins in a way that most people cannot fully comprehend.

 

[Miriam1947]

So the consequences of all those forgiven sins are instantaneously removed along with the sins, due to the grace of God, leading to instantaneous admission into heaven for the hypothetical serial killer, upon his demise? In other words, no disciplinary consequences for his forgiven sins?

Baptism. It must be baptism not just repentance. If that person had already been baptized then they may be forgiven if they are truly repentant but that doesn’t mean they go straight to heaven.

If on the other hand that same person had never been baptized and yet now truly believed and was now baptized then the grace of God has shown upon them.

And as hard as it is for the rest of us, they could actually have made it to heaven.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Did Jesus also bear, and wipe away the consequences of the hypothetical man’s forgiven sins at the same time he forgave his sins? In other words, we are accountable for absolutely nothing regarding the consequences of our forgiven sins?

True repentance and Baptism washes away our sins—no matter how horrible the sins may be. However, all of our actions have consequences, if not in death, certainly during our lifetime. The murderer, once forgiven, may still face prison or even death as a consequence for his/her actions–along with a wake of pain created from the taking of a life.

One would be at great risk to assume, one is “saved” and has nothing to worry about. We still must obey the commandments of Christ. We still must persevere. We still must confess and repent of our sins. We still must partake of the Holy Eucharist. We still must serve Christ and our fellow man, etc.

Peace,
Anna

 

[joe370]

Miriam1947;8473227]Baptism. It must be baptism not just repentance.

For most non-Catholics, but not all.

If that person had already been baptized then they may be forgiven if they are truly repentant but that doesn’t mean they go straight to heaven.

Seems reasonable and logical. Of course the consequences of forgiven sins, which to me, divine justice would demand, are not imposed to settle accounts demanded by retributive justice, for his sins have been forgiven. I’m referring to just the consequences of the sins already forgiven:

Hebrews 12:6 teaches that “the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

If on the other hand that same person had never been baptized and yet now truly believed and was now baptized then the grace of God has shown upon them.

But only for those who are being baptized for the first time go straight to heaven with no need of some sort of intermediary disciplinary action due to the consequences of his/her forgiven sin? That seems to be the case according to the CCC. I’ll have to confirm that one…

And as hard as it is for the rest of us, they could actually have made it to heaven.

Absolutely agree. Of course no one knows but God.

 

[joe370]

True repentance and Baptism washes away our sins—no matter how horrible the sins may be. However, all of our actions have consequences, if not in death, certainly during our lifetime. The murderer, once forgiven, may still face prison or even death as a consequence for his/her actions–along with a wake of pain created from the taking of a life.

One would be at great risk to assume, one is “saved” and has nothing to worry about. We still must obey the commandments of Christ. We still must persevere. We still must confess and repent of our sins. We still must partake of the Holy Eucharist. We still must serve Christ and our fellow man, etc.

Peace,
Anna

Makes perfect sense.

I am reminded of what Paul said about reaping what you sow: “The one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption…”.

Even the hypothetical serial killer (worse case scenario sin) - who chose to sow the seeds of the worst kind of evil, no doubt deriving some measure of macabre enjoyment from it, is forgiven by Jesus. However, what would logically follow of course would be some divine disciplinary measure on God’s part, regarding the harvesting of those sinful seeds, ergo purgatory, prior to his admission into eternity with Jesus. That was the logical conclusion I drew as a former non-Catholic…Just curious how other non-Catholics see it…

 

[St_Francis]

All Catholics and non-Catholics are familiar with the following:

Jesus, by carrying our sins and suffering for our transgressions, freed the world from spiritual imprisonment thereby achieving eternal salvation for all who pick up their cross and follow Him. He cancelled the debt, repaired our broken relationship and restored our status with the Father by dying on the cross, making us heirs of God and co-heirs with Him. Jesus’ death on the cross took away the punishment which would have been total and eternal separation from God, in hell, if not for His atoning work on the cross.

With the new covenant in place, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, can now have their sins forgiven and follow Jesus into eternity, which means that even if a person was a murderer or a serial killer, for example, his entire life, but eventually comes to accept Jesus as his savior just before his demise, then all of his sins are forgiven and heaven awaits him, since “He himself bore our sins…by his wounds you have been healed.”

Something I pondered as a former non-Catholic. Your thoughts:

Does it seem reasonable and scriptural to non-Catholics (because it didn’t to me as a former non-Catholic) - that God would rescind divine justice regarding** the consequences **of the murderer/serial killer’s sins that Jesus bore and forgave once he accepted Jesus (and was baptized for most non-Catholics) - as his one and only savior?

Did Jesus also bear, and wipe away the consequences of the hypothetical man’s forgiven sins at the same time he forgave his sins? In other words, we are accountable for absolutely nothing regarding the consequences of our forgiven sins?

You should read the Baltimore Catechism; it’s online and a lot of times the explanations are easier than the CCC’s.

Anyway, suppose I steal $100,000–mortal sin. Later, I repent and go to Confession. Then the punishment of going to Hell is remitted, but I have to repair the damge of the sin. Physically, by repaying as much of the money as I can, but there is also what you might call spiritual damage.

The penance the priest assigns is but a drop in the ocean in terms of complete reparation. What we lovingly accept and offer up in this world, such as our sufferings, our acts of obedience to God and those in authority over us, our alms and mortifications, any indulgences… all contribute to the debt we owe to God for our sins.

And what if we do not pay it off in this life? That is what Purgatory is for. But the reparation made in Purgatory is much more difficult and painful.

In the case of someone who is baptized after committing the sins, the baptism washes away all the need for reparation in relation to the person’s sorrow and repentance.

And lest this seem “unfair,” remember the parable Christ told about the workers in the vinyard, where those who came late in the day to work were paid the same as those who started in the morning.

 

[Miriam1947]

For most non-Catholics, but not all.

Seems reasonable and logical. Of course the consequences of forgiven sins, which to me, divine justice would demand, are not imposed to settle accounts demanded by retributive justice, for his sins have been forgiven. I’m referring to just the consequences of the sins already forgiven:

Hebrews 12:6 teaches that “the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

But only for those who are being baptized for the first time go straight to heaven with no need of some sort of intermediary disciplinary action due to the consequences of his/her forgiven sin? That seems to be the case according to the CCC. I’ll have to confirm that one…

Absolutely agree. Of course no one knows but God.

There is only one baptism. So if they had already been baptized there is not another one to forgive their sin. We all get just the one.

 

[joe370]

Absolutely agree. Of course no one knows but God.

There is only one baptism. So if they had already been baptized there is not another one to forgive their sin. We all get just the one.

Of course…

 

[Miriam1947]

Hey…do we know who heard the exchange between Jesus and the thief as both were on the cross? Was it his mother or Mary Magdalene?

Probably the Apostle John or all three.

 

[joe370]

St Francis;8473415]You should read the Baltimore Catechism; it’s online and a lot of times the explanations are easier than the CCC’s.

Anyway, suppose I steal $100,000–mortal sin. Later, I repent and go to Confession. Then the punishment of going to Hell is remitted, but I have to repair the damge of the sin. Physically, by repaying as much of the money as I can, but there is also what you might call spiritual damage.

The penance the priest assigns is but a drop in the ocean in terms of complete reparation. What we lovingly accept and offer up in this world, such as our sufferings, our acts of obedience to God and those in authority over us, our alms and mortifications, any indulgences… all contribute to the debt we owe to God for our sins.

…to the debt we owe to God for our forgiven sins?

And what if we do not pay it off in this life? That is what Purgatory is for. But the reparation made in Purgatory is much more difficult and painful.

I know.

In the case of someone who is baptized after committing the sins, the baptism washes away all the need for reparation in relation to the person’s sorrow and repentance.

And lest this seem “unfair,” remember the parable Christ told about the workers in the vinyard, where those who came late in the day to work were paid the same as those who started in the morning.

I had often wondered about the fairness there but that parable makes good sense!

Something I often thought about:

A person who was a big time sinner his whole life but finally accepts Jesus as his savior and is baptized, has both the sin and the consequences of said sin washed away.

But in the case of a practicing Christian who was baptized early on in his/her life, and yet sins, (repeating the following cycle when needed) - but is truly contrite and seeks repentance and absolution via confession, the punishment of going to Hell is certainly remitted but like you said, he/she will have to repair the damage of the sin, aka the consequences for God’s divine justice would certainly demand it and of course in no way does that detract from Jesus’ divine Mercy.

 

[bluelake]

 

[joe370]

joe370;8473203:

I like this passage which tells us in Eph.2:8-9 “We are saved by grace, through faith, and it is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, 9. not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Jesus took all of our sins to the cross. If you watched The passion" movie and witnessed the terrible suffering , I think it was a symbol of the terrible sins people have committed.
Our Savior has covered them all. We walk by faith, through grace.
Praise God. Jesus died for us, I love Him.

God bless,
bluelake

I agree 100%. Of course that really isn’t what the thread is about.

 

[joe370]

Probably the Apostle John or all three.

Hey Miriam, this consequence thing first caught my attention when reading the OT, as a former non-catholic long ago. For example, David, after about a year or so, finally says to God via Nathan: “I have sinned” - and David is forgiven by God, and yet we see consequences of David’s actions still looming large even after his confession and forgiveness. Under the guidance and inspiration of God, Nathan still declares to David, after he is forgiven by God: “The sword shall never depart from your house.” The forgiveness part was: “The Lord has taken away your sin; you shall not die.” However, the consequences of his forgiven sins were still there: “The sword will not depart from the house…”

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

It’s worth pointing out that we do not know, and we cannot know, with epistemological certainty who is saved and who is not, with the exception of the saints.