Something is nagging me

  • Thread starter Thread starter angell1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Nita said:
Human parents do not generate a human soul. God does. Only the infusion of a human soul enlivens the body conceived in the womb. If God does not make a human soul and infuse it into the fertilized ovum, no child results.
Click to expand...
I’m aware that God creates all souls.
 
Euwe said:
I’m aware that God creates all souls.
Click to expand...
therefore, he must know the outcome of that soul’s life. what is the point of creating a sould that he knows will go to hell? it’s a much different thing than creating a soul with an ambiguous outcome and hoping they will love you
 
angell1 said:
therefore, he must know the outcome of that soul’s life. what is the point of creating a sould that he knows will go to hell? it’s a much different thing than creating a soul with an ambiguous outcome and hoping they will love you
Click to expand...
He knows the choices that every soul will make.

He doesn’t make the choice that each soul makes.
 
I can’t imagine why this obviously simple idea isnt totally grasped by even the dumbest among us.

The infinite inscrutability of God is certainly no challenge for a high-school graduate, enen; is it? He gave us intelligence, so it’s no big deal.

Since it is so simple, I won’t bother to explain His mind to you.

Dumb people need to lurk in the Quantum Physics Forum.

Everyone has surely heard of the tale of St. Paul (who was contemplating how God could be triune) asking the child at the seashore why he kept filling his waterpail from the sea and pouring it into a hole he had dug. The child asked Paul why he was trying to pour infinity into his human brain…
 
angell1 said:
in a way he is, because he is choosing to create a soul which will reject him
Click to expand...
No, He’s creating a soul.

The soul will decide whether to accept Him or reject Him.

Each individual soul is solely responsible for their eternal fate.
 
Euwe said:
No, He’s creating a soul.

The soul will decide whether to accept Him or reject Him.

Each individual soul is solely responsible for their eternal fate.
Click to expand...
but he knowsn before creating the soul, what it will do doen’st he?
 
George14 said:
I can’t imagine why this obviously simple idea isnt totally grasped by even the dumbest among us.

The infinite inscrutability of God is certainly no challenge for a high-school graduate, enen; is it? He gave us intelligence, so it’s no big deal.

Since it is so simple, I won’t bother to explain His mind to you.

Dumb people need to lurk in the Quantum Physics Forum.

Everyone has surely heard of the tale of St. Paul (who was contemplating how God could be triune) asking the child at the seashore why he kept filling his waterpail from the sea and pouring it into a hole he had dug. The child asked Paul why he was trying to pour infinity into his human brain…
Click to expand...
at least my finite human brain can notice the sarcasm in your post.

in all seriousness though, a lot of people reject God for this very reason. for evangelation purposes, there must be some way to explain it at least a little
 
Euwe said:
He knows the decisions which each soul will make.

He doesn’t make the decisions which each soul makes.
Click to expand...
Yes! And He gives them ample grace to make the right decisions. Everyone created has the option to be with the Lord for all eternity. What a gift!
 
Dorothy said:
Yes! And He gives them ample grace to make the right decisions. Everyone created has the option to be with the Lord for all eternity. What a gift!
Click to expand...
Except there are some here who think that by creating a soul that God has predetermined that soul’s fate 🤷

Of course you’re correct in your summation.
 
Dorothy said:
Yes! And He gives them ample grace to make the right decisions. Everyone created has the option to be with the Lord for all eternity. What a gift!
Click to expand...
i guess it’s hard to wrap my head around. he gives everyone the option to go to heaven but he knows before creating someone that they won’t. it’s a strange concept. i was looking of answers elsewhere, preferably from preists and found something saying that he knew this would happen when he created the world, but in order to give us true freedom, he placed limits and natural laws on his creation allowing evil to happen because we wouldn’t be able to know good without evil. and because we are made in his image and likeness with the same rational capacities, we would eventually seek to try and be God like lucifer did, hwich of course we can’t. i still don’t really know why he decided to do this in the first place. is it all just for fun? also something else is that God exists outside of time and space, so when we say something is going ot happen, it’s already happened for God or is always happening or something like that. i think i’m just confusing myself more now. i think i give up now, i’m not really going to understand it anyways
 
We’re bound to discover God’s glory just ss much in those condemned as in those saved. Mercy and justice are inseparable elements. We will thank Him for not saving anyone who chose freely to refect Him.
 
angell1 said:
i guess it’s hard to wrap my head around. he gives everyone the option to go to heaven but he knows before creating someone that they won’t. it’s a strange concept. i was looking of answers elsewhere, preferably from preists and found something saying that he knew this would happen when he created the world, but in order to give us true freedom, he placed limits and natural laws on his creation allowing evil to happen because we wouldn’t be able to know good without evil. and because we are made in his image and likeness with the same rational capacities, we would eventually seek to try and be God like lucifer did, hwich of course we can’t. i still don’t really know why he decided to do this in the first place. is it all just for fun? also something else is that God exists outside of time and space, so when we say something is going ot happen, it’s already happened for God or is always happening or something like that. i think i’m just confusing myself more now. i think i give up now, i’m not really going to understand it anyways
Click to expand...
Hi angell,

I like your last sentence. I will share that I am 77 years old, and have lived long enough to be aware that compared to God’s infinite love, mercy, power, etc. …I have a pea brain and cannot wrap my brain about God’s ways and analyze Him. 🙂

All I know, is that from reading the Gospel, going to Mass, praying, reading spiritual books, receiving the sacraments, I have become aware that God loves us so much and we cannot fully understand or appreciate that.
As a result, I just trust and don’t try to figure it all out. And we can rest assured that He is trustworthy!

God’s blessings to you!
 
angell1 said:
i guess it’s hard to wrap my head around. he gives everyone the option to go to heaven but he knows before creating someone that they won’t. it’s a strange concept. i was looking of answers elsewhere, preferably from preists and found something saying that he knew this would happen when he created the world, but in order to give us true freedom, he placed limits and natural laws on his creation allowing evil to happen because we wouldn’t be able to know good without evil. and because we are made in his image and likeness with the same rational capacities, we would eventually seek to try and be God like lucifer did, hwich of course we can’t. i still don’t really know why he decided to do this in the first place. is it all just for fun? also something else is that God exists outside of time and space, so when we say something is going ot happen, it’s already happened for God or is always happening or something like that. i think i’m just confusing myself more now. i think i give up now, i’m not really going to understand it anyways
Click to expand...
And to these 2 bolded statements is say - Thanks be to God for not giving us the ability to be his equal. Wouldn’t it be weird if we could understand everything?😉

Peace!!!
 
angell1 said:
if i knew what order they would happen in, then perhaps there would be no need for the killer. anyways, i guess it’s a question no one has the answer to. what about evangelization though? what’s if the point if people are going to accept or reject god regardless and there’s nothing we can do to change that
Click to expand...
So untangling your answer, I’m going to assume (and I know the risk in this) that “if I knew the order” means you would have given birth to the first two (healer and martyr) but not the third. Is that correct?

If that is the case, let’s apply that to God - could He simply choose to create only those who would do good, and not create those who would rebel against Him? Certainly, but then we wouldn’t have free will, and without that, what is the purpose of creating rational beings? There isn’t one, so God accepts the pain with the love and guides man to follow Him, but does not force man to do so.
 
angell1 said:
i guess it’s hard to wrap my head around. he gives everyone the option to go to heaven but he knows before creating someone that they won’t. it’s a strange concept. i was looking of answers elsewhere, preferably from preists and found something saying that he knew this would happen when he created the world, but in order to give us true freedom, he placed limits and natural laws on his creation allowing evil to happen because we wouldn’t be able to know good without evil. and because we are made in his image and likeness with the same rational capacities, we would eventually seek to try and be God like lucifer did, hwich of course we can’t. i still don’t really know why he decided to do this in the first place. is it all just for fun? also something else is that God exists outside of time and space, so when we say something is going ot happen, it’s already happened for God or is always happening or something like that. i think i’m just confusing myself more now. i think i give up now, i’m not really going to understand it anyways
Click to expand...
No, we can’t fully understand it. God’s infinite love almost demands that he create others out of his love–others who can accept what he offers or reject it. But love also demands sacrifice–it’s the nature of love. One must accept whatever consequences might come with giving it or receiving it. It’s truly unfathomable.

I saw this video–it’s very short–and I thought of you and your question. I don’t know if it will answer anything but I think it might open a crack to let in a bit of light. 🙂 blog.newadvent.org/2013/10/this-atheist-heroin-addict-prayed-to.html.
 
Mumbles140 said:
So untangling your answer, I’m going to assume (and I know the risk in this) that “if I knew the order” means you would have given birth to the first two (healer and martyr) but not the third. Is that correct?

If that is the case, let’s apply that to God - could He simply choose to create only those who would do good, and not create those who would rebel against Him? Certainly, but then we wouldn’t have free will, and without that, what is the purpose of creating rational beings? There isn’t one, so God accepts the pain with the love and guides man to follow Him, but does not force man to do so.
Click to expand...
That does not work. Suppose, the murderer was the first born. Then you could not have the healer and the martyr. Perhaps it was the actions of the murderer that inspired the one to become a healer, and the other a martyr.

In the original order, the 3rd may still have been the inspiration. If he never killed, the healer would have become a prostitute and the martyr an apostate.

So the math theory is that we live in the best of all possible worlds, that is, God optimized all of creation so that there is a maximum of good and minimum of evil given all time and space. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds
 
Evan said:
That does not work. Suppose, the murderer was the first born. Then you could not have the healer and the martyr. Perhaps it was the actions of the murderer that inspired the one to become a healer, and the other a martyr.

In the original order, the 3rd may still have been the inspiration. If he never killed, the healer would have become a prostitute and the martyr an apostate.

So the math theory is that we live in the best of all possible worlds, that is, God optimized all of creation so that there is a maximum of good and minimum of evil given all time and space. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds
Click to expand...
I fear you may have misunderstood my argument. I was trying to get angell1 to say that, if omniscient (and therefore knew without a doubt what each of the three children individually would be), whether they would: have no children, have some but not all children, or have all children. Based on angell1’s argument, I was hoping they would agree that they would pick those who did good things for humanity, and not give birth to the one who would do harm (again, these scenarios are in a vacuum, not one influencing another).

Then, I contrasted this against God’s omniscience, love, and mercy - if God only created those who would do good things, would we really have unlimited free will? And wouldn’t that go against God’s whole purpose of creating us? So we could be totally free to either love Him or reject Him - if He only created those who would love Him, it negates our ‘choice’ to love or reject.

Specifically for your answer, it seems you are following the thinking of St. Thomas, where the actions of the murderer may ‘inspire’ (although the connotation associated with that isn’t good for ‘murder’) the other sibling to be a healer. I do agree with this - God allows evil (consequent will) but then works good out of it. If God wanted to intervene every time someone would do evil, He could, but then we wouldn’t really be free. However, that is very different from saying He wants there to be evil.
 
Mumbles140 said:
I fear you may have misunderstood my argument. I was trying to get angell1 to say that, if omniscient (and therefore knew without a doubt what each of the three children individually would be), whether they would: have no children, have some but not all children, or have all children. Based on angell1’s argument, I was hoping they would agree that they would pick those who did good things for humanity, and not give birth to the one who would do harm (again, these scenarios are in a vacuum, not one influencing another).

Then, I contrasted this against God’s omniscience, love, and mercy - if God only created those who would do good things, would we really have unlimited free will? And wouldn’t that go against God’s whole purpose of creating us? So we could be totally free to either love Him or reject Him - if He only created those who would love Him, it negates our ‘choice’ to love or reject.

Specifically for your answer, it seems you are following the thinking of St. Thomas, where the actions of the murderer may ‘inspire’ (although the connotation associated with that isn’t good for ‘murder’) the other sibling to be a healer. I do agree with this - God allows evil (consequent will) but then works good out of it. If God wanted to intervene every time someone would do evil, He could, but then we wouldn’t really be free. However, that is very different from saying He wants there to be evil.
Click to expand...
If God intervened each time one chose an evil act, there is no repentance, no good, just the those who choose neither good nor evil. And Jesus said these God will vomit out. So with this option, creation exists, but humanity is left out.

We are all sinners, there are none who do not choose evil. So God’s only choice is not to creation any beings with free will.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top