Something out of nothing

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STT said:
I think I am capable of thinking in the abstract well. I think that the problem arises from the fact that people do not want to accept simple fact, like decision allows act, when their system of belief is threatened.
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Or, it could be that you have an inability to think in the abstract.

Like this: It’s a simple fact that the Bible says God has wings. And it threatens people to think that God has feathers!

Emmm…no. We accept the simple fact. But the second part, not so much.
 
His question boils down to “How can God have free choice if there never was a moment of decision? If God’s will has always been eternal, doesn’t that mean it is not free and is more just a neutral force of nature? Especially if His will is His essence?”

I still think it boils down to an anthropomorphic view of the divine intellect, of needing to fit it into how we process things. The choice has always been. There was never a point where it wasn’t made. It is a part of His essence. But it could have been different. And while God is necessary, all of creation is contingent.
 
Wesrock said:
I still think it boils down to an anthropomorphic view of the divine intellect, of needing to fit it into how we process things.
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Yes, there are many reasons why this thread has gone on so long without STT coming to a clearer understanding.
 
Aloysium said:
I might accept what you consider a simple fact that “decision allows act” if I knew what it means. Deciding is an act as far as I am concerned. In time, i read your post, felt your frustration and was confused, shrugged my shoulders, but having nothing else to do while drinking my coffee, then decided to respond. I’m writing, what I’m writing, reading and correcting if it doesn’t sound clear. It’s all a flow of different sort of activity. If I were to separate what is whole, I could describe this as a knower/doer who reaches out in the knowing and doing, connecting with the known/done - a sort of . . . trinity, perhaps a bit distorted by sin, but still in the image of, you know, the One who is here and everywhere. I still don’t really understand what you mean.
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I think things become clear when we try to distinguish the difference between God and a mindless Cosmic Force with the ability to generate universe. The main difference is that God is mindful with the ability to decide on His action whereas Cosmic Force just generate universe. This means that God has control on his action, decision allows act, and that is the main difference between God and cosmic force. However, we have a sequence of decision and act which is logically impossibly in timeless picture, where God dwells. So we are having a problem.
 
PRmerger said:
Or, it could be that you have an inability to think in the abstract.

Like this: It’s a simple fact that the Bible says God has wings. And it threatens people to think that God has feathers!

Emmm…no. We accept the simple fact. But the second part, not so much.
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Ok, then tell me that how you can fit a sequence of decision and act in timeless state if you have the ability to abstract.
 
Wesrock said:
His question boils down to “How can God have free choice if there never was a moment of decision? If God’s will has always been eternal, doesn’t that mean it is not free and is more just a neutral force of nature? Especially if His will is His essence?”

I still think it boils down to an anthropomorphic view of the divine intellect, of needing to fit it into how we process things. The choice has always been. There was never a point where it wasn’t made. It is a part of His essence. But it could have been different. And while God is necessary, all of creation is contingent.
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I don’t think that my argument boils down to an anthropomorphic view. The argument is very simple. Decision allows act. This is a logical statement and cannot be otherwise. This is however a sequence which cannot be fitted in timeless picture hence we are having a problem.
 
STT said:
Ok, then tell me that how you can fit a sequence of decision and act in timeless state if you have the ability to abstract.
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This is nonsensical.

There can be no “fitting of a sequence” in a timeless state.
 
STT said:
I don’t think that my argument boils down to an anthropomorphic view. The argument is very simple. Decision allows act. This is a logical statement and cannot be otherwise. This is however a sequence which cannot be fitted in timeless picture hence we are having a problem.
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In God there is no difference between decision and act.
 
STT said:
But we know by fact that decision allows act. That is a sequence.
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I still don’t understand why such an order could not be one of priority without necessitating any type of temporal sequence, but your statement also contradicts divine simplicity.
 
davidv said:
How do you know this fact applies to God?
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God is able to decide and act. I think we can agree on that. I think it is then obvious that decision allows act. How could be otherwise? Do you have any alternative?
 
STT said:
Yes. That is true. This means that God cannot decide and act in timeless picture.
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No, it cannot mean this. This conclusion and the post responded to are not related as cause and effect.

The presence of nonsense questions is independent of how God acts.
 
Wesrock said:
I still don’t understand why such an order could not be one of priority without necessitating any type of temporal sequence, but your statement also contradicts divine simplicity.
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I don’t understand what you are trying to say with the bold part.
 
STT said:
God is able to decide and act. I think we can agree on that. I think it is then obvious that decision allows act.
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In fact, this has not been agreed upon.
How could be otherwise? Do you have any alternative?
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The alternative is that God is pure act. He has no potentiality. Any terms of before or after, or those implying a sequence in time are nonsense when applied to God.
 
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