Something that has been bothering me for a while now

[2nd_Adam]

This formulation suffers from the error of “total depravity”. On the contrary, the Apostles taught that we are moved from darkness into light when our faith mixes with God’s grace.

Nothing can reconcile us to God without His grace. His word is clear that some are reconciled to Him who have not known Christ. That does not mean it happens “apart” from Him, as no one can come to the Father but through Him. HOwever, some may be drawn by the Father,and not realize they are coming through Christ. Saving faith is found everywhere, and is not confined to “Christian” religions. Saving faith is a matter of the individual’s heart, not of their religious practice. You yourself have said this on other threads, affirming that the remnant is found in all denominations.

Justifying and sanctifying grace which God saves sinners was merited by the life and death of Jesus Christ. All redemptive grace is from the person and work of Jesus Christ. My remnant comment only includes Christendom (Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants). It does not include Mormonism, Hinduism, Islam, etc for apart from Jesus Christ and HIm crucified there is no redeeming grace for the sinner. Do you really believe you can find writings from early church fathers who believed that Muslim, Hindus, and Jews could be saved in their non-Christian faiths? If so, please provide their writings. :ballspin: Unbelief in the biblical Jesus Christ is the true mortal sin. :knight2:

 

[tomarin]

In what basis are Jews and Muslims reconciled to God for their sins? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. How are the Jews and Muslims dealing with the sin issue which seperates us from God, sending us to Hell for just punishment?

I don’t know. Probably in the same way Protestant Christians are reconciled to God for their sins. None of these groups have confession, so I’m “leaving that to God” as Morningstar put it. At least they all believe in sin, unlike our secular society.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t know. Probably in the same way Protestant Christians are reconciled to God for their sins. None of these groups have confession, so I’m “leaving that to God” as Morningstar put it. At least they all believe in sin, unlike our secular society.

See, here’s the lack of biblical discernment with Catholic Christians.

You are comparing Proteststant CHRISTIANS with Muslims and Jews who reject Jesus Christ.

Of course Protestants have Confessions of Faith.

 

[tomarin]

Muhammad claimed that the Angel Gabriel appeared to him. Do you believe that?

No. I think it’s more likely Islam is a creation of men.

I find it ridiculous to state as you have, that because Muhammad believed in monotheism, a demon could not have appeared to him if his claim of being visited by an angel is true. After all, Satan is the greatest deceiver and in Muhammad he could have found the perfect way to spread his errors.

Vickie

It’s not an either/or proposition. Islam could be just a creation of men imitating religious ideas they encountered in contact with Christians and Jews, although some of these ideas got garbled (as in a game of “telephone”).

 

[tomarin]

See, here’s the lack of biblical discernment with Catholic Christians.

You are comparing Proteststant CHRISTIANS with Muslims and Jews who reject Jesus Christ.

Of course Protestants have Confessions of Faith.

I acknowledge Protestants as fellow Christians – you have the Bible even if you are not in communion with the Catholic Church. But since you don’t have the sacraments I don’t know how you are justified with God any more than I know how Muslims and Jews are.

 

[dzheremi]

Hello Booklover/Vickie.

Could you help me understand something.

If Mohammed’s claim that an angel had visited him and gave him the baisis for Islam(a new but not completely different religion from Judaism) is not credible. That it had to be Satan.
Is it not plausible that the vision Paul had ( giving him the basis for Christianity) could be the same?

This IS NOT a criticism of Christianity but a sincere question.

Thank you

I know I’m not Vickie, but I would say that the proof is in the way that each man acted after receiving their respective vision. Paul went from persecuting and killing Christians to defending and spreading peacefully the religion he had so strongly opposed. Muhammad went from at least a nominally polytheistic background to a strictly monotheistic ideal (albeit with what we might generously call some “bumps in the road”, e.g. the Satanic verses), but the peace he offered in spreading his message was not like that of the early Christians. They spread throughout Judea in a position that was just as disgraced and opposed as Muhammad had been during his early (relatively sedate) years of preaching in Mecca (the many martyrs of the early church attest to this), yet they did not take up the sword as Muhammad did.

 

[ralphinal]

I know I’m not Vickie, but I would say that the proof is in the way that each man acted after receiving their respective vision. Paul went from persecuting and killing Christians to defending and spreading peacefully the religion he had so strongly opposed. Muhammad went from at least a nominally polytheistic background to a strictly monotheistic ideal (albeit with what we might generously call some “bumps in the road”, e.g. the Satanic verses), but the peace he offered in spreading his message was not like that of the early Christians. They spread throughout Judea in a position that was just as disgraced and opposed as Muhammad had been during his early (relatively sedate) years of preaching in Mecca (the many martyrs of the early church attest to this), yet they did not take up the sword as Muhammad did.

You know, there is another option.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.

Muslims INTEND to worship our God but have been so badly mislead that they do not do so. They profess to worship our God, but because of the corruption of their understanding they SERVE another power

 

[josie_L]

No, I acknowledge Protestants are much closer to the truth – you have the Bible at least. But you don’t have the sacraments so I can’t answer your original question. I don’t know how Protestants are reconciled to God.

Protestants are reconciled to God (like Catholics are) through baptism.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, I acknowledge Protestants are much closer to the truth – you have the Bible at least. But you don’t have the sacraments so I can’t answer your original question. I don’t know how Protestants are reconciled to God.

The same way you are… Jesus Christ and Him crucified. If you read my two Catholic links on my signature, you will learn that we sinners are justified by faith!

 

[guanophore]

Justifying and sanctifying grace which God saves sinners was merited by the life and death of Jesus Christ. All redemptive grace is from the person and work of Jesus Christ.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

My remnant comment only includes Christendom (Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants).It does not include Mormonism, Hinduism, Islam, etc

Well, you may wish to exclude people, but God knows those who are His. They come from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

 for apart from Jesus Christ and HIm crucified there is no redeeming grace for the sinner. Do you really believe you can find writings from early church fathers who believed that Muslim, Hindus, and Jews could be saved in their non-Christian faiths?

There is no salvation without the Blood of Jesus.

There is no need to go even as far as the Fathers, as the Scriptures themselves are clear on this point. I marvel that you have posted the relevant passages yourself, yet you do not see it.

Unbelief in the biblical Jesus Christ is the true mortal sin. :knight2:

That depends upon the unbelief. If you wish to define “mortal” sins, then I suggest you review the definition of them. The nature of invincible ignorance excludes mortal sin.

People can believe in God, and be saved by His grace, yet not know Jesus. Many of the OT saints are in this category, and there are people of every tongue, tribe, and nation that are as well.

See, here’s the lack of biblical discernment with Catholic Christians.

You are comparing Proteststant CHRISTIANS with Muslims and Jews who reject Jesus Christ.

Of course Protestants have Confessions of Faith.

Well, we do understand what is written differently, because we interpret it in the light of the Apostolic Teachings. You have not received these, so you interpret apart from them.

Protestant Christians reject parts of the Apostolic faith. Their “confessions of faith” fall short in various ways from that One Faith that was committed to the Church. Yet, we believe that God saves them by grace, through faith. Ignorance will not keep a person away from God. Rebellion will.

 

[tomarin]

The same way you are… Jesus Christ and Him crucified. If you read my two Catholic links on my signature, you will learn that we sinners are justified by faith!

I think you’re barking up the wrong tree. And I don’t know what your denomination’s doctrine of justification has to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[tomarin]

Protestants are reconciled to God (like Catholics are) through baptism.

But baptism just makes them a member of the Church. What about all of the mortal sins that they don’t get a chance to confess because they don’t have the sacrament of reconciliation?

 

[dzheremi]

Muslims INTEND to worship our God but have been so badly mislead that they do not do so. They profess to worship our God, but because of the corruption of their understanding they SERVE another power

I don’t see how you can make sense of this when Muslims (and Jews, for that matter) do not agree. If we are going to talk about the intentions of other people, shouldn’t we at least take what they say into account? Muslims and Jews here and elsewhere have said that they do not worship our God. Jews, for their part, thnk we have made a false God out of a false messiah. And it is only relatively recently, thanks to modern inter-religious dialogue, that Muslims have backed off of their stance that we are “blasphemers” and “associators” automatically destined for hell, and even then it is only as part of their proselytization activities. Read answers from any Imam or watch any of hundreds of Youtube videos on the subject and you’ll see just how Muslims interpret this idea that they worship our God or intend to worship Him. They will probably say they worship the God that we used to worship before we wrongly “elevated” a mere prophet to the level of the Almighty.

 

[robsully]

Hello Dzheremi, thank you for your kind response.
The way each man responded may have been completely different, but does history show many similairities?
The taking up of the sword in the name of God (religion) being one. Compassionate treatment of other religions being another. Just at different times in history.

My observation/question arose from Vickie’s view of Islam and Mohammed. That what can be claimed of one can be claimed of the other.

1. Saul was correct in his original view of Christianity, but corrupted by Satan posing as Jesus.
2. An angel did visit Mohammed to pass on an uncorrupted view of God and his Word.

This is NOT a judgement of either Christianity or Islam

Again thank you for your kind response

 

[morning_star777]

Christians have traditionally believed that that old law is null and void because it has been superceded by Christianity, so whether Jews still follow it or not is beside the point.

Oh I see! I do not know that but since you are a Catholic and you are saying so, so I trust you! But
I am afraid that this type of traditional belief can provoke Muslims. Because they can claim that since one law( Old) is now null and void and superseded by new law of God, so the new law ( NT)also can be superseded by the so called 3rd revelation (Koran) of God!! So it can give them some extra advantage when Catholics argue with them! BTW, I still think that, The Jews are exempt from the critique that we pose to Muslims because Judaism existed prior to Christ whereas Islam was invented 6 centuries after Christ.

Let me put it this way: there is a family resemblance among all the Abrahamic religions. The things that are good or true (and actually, some of the bad things too, like polygamy) about Islam have been copied from Judaism and/or Christianity.

Yeah indeed, so Islam just took some odd things from OT and that is polygamy. And an odd way can only took some odd laws. Because polygamy is really very tasty for them who need 72 hoories in Jannah (heaven).And they also took some good teaching I confess, but all are for eye wash, because a religion can never be established with some good laws, as I said before that the coat of sugar can make the cyanide pill very sweet in the beginning. People can happily taste it if they failed to guess the reality of the tasty pill. But after sometimes they will die because of cyanide ,but be sure, nobody will never taste it if you directly give the cyanide pill to them and that’s why bible says that lamb coated wolves are much more ferocious. And I realized now that the coat of Abrahamic monotheism is too strong to deceive even some devote Christians.
Anyway I believe that Muslims do not believe in Abrahamic God because , I do not think that it was necessary to establish a new monotheistc religion to take pagans under a monotheistic atmosphere because there were both Jews and Christians when Mohammad established Islam, So if his aim was really to serve Abrahamic God then he had the finest option to serve the God of Abraham by accepting Christianity. BTW Constantinople is not too far from Mecca, so if he went Syria then it was not too hard for him to find the Orthodox Christian priests of Constantinople.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t see how you can make sense of this when Muslims (and Jews, for that matter) do not agree. If we are going to talk about the intentions of other people, shouldn’t we at least take what they say into account? Muslims and Jews here and elsewhere have said that they do not worship our God. Jews, for their part, thnk we have made a false God out of a false messiah. And it is only relatively recently, thanks to modern inter-religious dialogue, that Muslims have backed off of their stance that we are “blasphemers” and “associators” automatically destined for hell, and even then it is only as part of their proselytization activities. Read answers from any Imam or watch any of hundreds of Youtube videos on the subject and you’ll see just how Muslims interpret this idea that they worship our God or intend to worship Him. They will probably say they worship the God that we used to worship before we wrongly “elevated” a mere prophet to the level of the Almighty.

Wait, I think that I have misunderstood you this whole time. if so, I am sorry for that.

Is your position based on the idea that Muslims themselves refuse to say we worship the same God?

 

[morning_star777]

He doesn’t seem to care what they believe, as long as they believe in one god!

Vickie

Yes Vickei, it is really surprising.because if monotheism is the key then Zoroastrianism is also a monotheist religion and they also think like us that no evil can generate from God (Ahura Mazda is their god),but Muslims say that Allah is the creator of Satan and Satan is bound by the will of allah.So I am not sure why some of us can not take Zoroastrianism instead of islam in the first place of salvation if the salvation can be possible outside the new covenant!Anyway vickie,you can follow the wiki link about
Zoroastrianism . I believe it will help you little if you don’t know about it.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Protestants are reconciled to God (like Catholics are) through baptism.

Here is how Protestants believe we are reconciled to God…through faith in what God has done for us in Christ.

The Ministry of Reconciliation

Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. - 2 Cor 5

 

[2nd_Adam]

But baptism just makes them a member of the Church. What about all of the mortal sins that they don’t get a chance to confess because they don’t have the sacrament of reconciliation?

Interesting insight brother!!!

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think you’re barking up the wrong tree. And I don’t know what your denomination’s doctrine of justification has to do with the topic of this thread.

Please read my two Catholic links on my signature to answer your view good question. I am first and foremost a Christian. Thereafeter, I am an Evangelical. And a distant third, my theology is Reformed.