Something that has been bothering me for a while now

[Godfollower]

Why do some assume that if someone disagrees on whether Muslims worship the same God or not, that person is not a good Catholic? I get so tired of hearing that.
We are not even required to believe in approved apparitions, so why should we have to believe that Muslims worship the same God?

Who is the author of the Quran? Is it the God of Abraham? If it is, then we should all give up believing in Jesus as the Son of God, his crucifixion and death, his raising from the dead and become Muslims! Whoever authored the Quran is the deity whom Muslims worship. It’s this “deity” who has contradicted everything that came before, who has seen to it that all the love, mercy and forgiveness that Jesus brought us has been overturned by the violence and extreme cruelty preached in his “last” revelation. How can this be the same God we’ve come to know? Why did God warn us not to worship “false gods”?

Vickie

If not believing everything we know to be true about God means they’re worshiping a different god, then Anglicans are worshiping a different god, yes? After all, they don’t believe everything we do about Him. And the Lutherans and Methodists and Baptists and Jews and so on and so on are all worshiping different gods.

There’s only one God out there. If you’re worshiping God, there’s only one “place” the prayers can go to. You might not understand Him very well – but then, no one understands Him completely except the Son – but you are worshiping Him. You might think Mass in the vernacular is a disgrace, but you’re worshiping the same God I am. You might think Vatican II was a mistake, but you’re worshiping the same God I am. You might think He only inhabits the bread and wine symbolically, but you’re worshiping the same God I am. You might think His Mother was only a virgin until after He was born, but you’re worshiping the same God I am. You might think baptism is symbolic and can be repeated many times, and the Bible is the only authority on Earth to address morality, but you’re worshiping the same God I am. You might think that the KJV is the only acceptable version of the Bible (once you take out the Deuterocanonicals), but you’re worshiping the same God I am. You might think that the Christian Church was completely correct until Constantine’s reign and that some weird conspiracy took over the Church in the fourth century, but you’re worshiping the same God I am. You might believe everything Lorraine Bottner or Jack Chick ever wrote, but you’re worshiping the same God I am. You might think God hasn’t sent His Messiah yet, and hope for the reestablishment of Jerusalem and its Temple, and deny the veracity of the Gospels, but you’re worshiping the same God I am.

And you might think that God sent Jesus as a mere prophet, and Mohammed was a better prophet, and that book Mohammed wrote is actually the word of God, and the entire New Testament is false, but you’re worshiping the same God I am.

You aren’t doing it very well, and your understanding of Him is more limited than mine (not through any merit on my part, but due only to the glory of God), but there’s only one God, and you and I are both worshiping Him.

 

[dzheremi]

Thank you kindly, everyone. You’ve all given me a lot to think about, and I really do appreciate it. While I do feel like I have some explaining to do, for the sake of expediency I will try to reply to a few points from several of you now, rather than tackle every point in every reply.

Have you considered that your hate of Islam–let’s call it what it is, though I’m not sure hate of Islam is a bad thing–is even now turning you away from the Church, and causing you to question the infallibility of her teachings?

No, I hadn’t, because it was actually not anything to do with Islam that made me realize that I could no longer believe in this in good faith, It was actually my conversation with a Hindu poster in the thread “We are all Hindus now” that made me realize that I cannot reconcile my belief in the Trinity with God as He is defined in every non-Christian religion. You are right in the next sentence of your reply that this actually is not about whether Islam is bad or not. Some things in Islam are good, some things in Islam are not. If you want to call trying to be even-handed “hatred”, be my guest, but I don’t see it that way.

It’s bad enough when people believe this nonsense about the Muslims not worshiping the true God because they have always been taught to. But you say that you have actually come to believe it? For heaven’s sake, why?

Because I am trying to be honest, and I am trying to worship God in the most complete way possible.

It is your claim that all non-worshipers of the Trinity worship a false God that is simplistic.

And where did I make such a claim? Here is what I wrote in the OP:

I believe that the Trinity, and the CHRISTIAN Trinity at that, is the one true God. Not Islam’s Allah or Hinduism’s Vishnu or anything or anyone else. So I cannot, for the sake my own soul, say that these other gods, which are not the eternal and uncreated unity that is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, are somehow also my God.

You can certainly infer from this that whoever does not worship the Trinity is, in fact, worshipping something other than God, but I purposely stopped short of writing that because I wanted to emphasize that it is out of my own belief in the Trinity that I personally cannot believe that every other religion’s God is also somehow my God. In other words, I’m not too proud to be wrong about this, but I cannot honestly say that I believe down to the marrow of my bones that Islam’s Allah, Hinduism’s Vishnu, or Zoroastrianism’s Ahura Mazda are also God in the same way that the Triune God of Christianity is God. It is not so much about whether other people are wrong (I’m not the type to create a thread just to say that), but whether I am believing in and worshipping God as I should be.

dzheremi, I think that CCC 841 is referring to the idea of the “anonymous Christian.” Are you familiar with it?

No, I’m not. Would you be willing to explain it to me?

 

[dzheremi]

Just to reiterate: This thread is really not supposed to be about whether other people worship God correctly, but what is correct within the boundaries of Christian worship. This is one of two reasons I did not bring up the Jews, as they are not Christians in the first place. The other reason is that the passage in question does not address them.

 

[Della]

Just to reiterate: This thread is really not supposed to be about whether other people worship God correctly, but what is correct within the boundaries of Christian worship. This is one of two reasons I did not bring up the Jews, as they are not Christians in the first place. The other reason is that the passage in question does not address them.

What this is really about, what the Church is actually saying here is that those who have an imperfect knowledge/worship of God may be saved. The question is why/how?

(Remember, the Catechism doesn’t rise/fall on one passage alone. Just like the Bible or any other sacred document it needs to be taken as a whole, within context, not have passages torn out of it in what is termed “cherry picking” fashion in order to say: “See here? This says this, so that can’t also be true.” That is not the proper way to read the Bible or any document the Church issues.)

To answer the how/why we need to go to another passage in the Catechism:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

It depends on the heart of the person. God accepts all who seek him, as St. Peter declared:

Acts 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

(Bold emphasis mine.)

The Church has never taught than one must have a perfect understanding of God in order to be saved. Why? Because Christ died to redeem all men–everyone everywhere in all times. So, whether or not the Muslims think they are worshiping the same God as we do or not, God will judge their hearts according to what they knew and understood (culpability) and what they did/didn’t do (accountablitiy), not just on what they believed.

 

[SSTeacher]

There’s only one God out there. If you’re worshiping God, there’s only one “place” the prayers can go to.

Not everybody would agree. It has been reported that when a certain Englishman told the people of Northern Ireland that he was an atheist, a female henotheist in the audience stood up and asked:

“Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don’t believe?”

Ecumenically,
Mick

 

[Booklover]

Vickie

 

[dzheremi]

What this is really about, what the Church is actually saying here is that those who have an imperfect knowledge/worship of God may be saved. The question is why/how?

(Remember, the Catechism doesn’t rise/fall on one passage alone. Just like the Bible or any other sacred document it needs to be taken as a whole, within context, not have passages torn out of it in what is termed “cherry picking” fashion in order to say: “See here? This says this, so that can’t also be true.” That is not the proper way to read the Bible or any document the Church issues.)

To answer the how/why we need to go to another passage in the Catechism:

It depends on the heart of the person. God accepts all who seek him, as St. Peter declared:

(Bold emphasis mine.)

The Church has never taught than one must have a perfect understanding of God in order to be saved. Why? Because Christ died to redeem all men–everyone everywhere in all times. So, whether or not the Muslims think they are worshiping the same God as we do or not, God will judge their hearts according to what they knew and understood (culpability) and what they did/didn’t do (accountablitiy), not just on what they believed.

See, looked at from this perspective, I have no problem whatsoever. Certainly anyone can be saved. What I am having trouble with is this idea that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

 

[Godfollower]

See, looked at from this perspective, I have no problem whatsoever. Certainly anyone can be saved. What I am having trouble with is this idea that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

What is there that makes you think that there is some other god that they are worshiping? Christian theology has always been that there is only one God. Some people call Him “Jesus;” some people call Him “Yahweh;” some people call Him “A God unknown” (see Acts 17:22-25); some people (both Arabic Christians and Arabic Muslims) call Him “Allah.”

So they get some – or, in some cases, a lot – of the details wrong. They aren’t worshiping some other god; they’re just getting the details wrong.

 

[Contarini]

Dzheremi never even mentioned the Jews in his post, so why did you bring them up?

Because they don’t worship the Trinitarian God.

You’re the one making the statement that because Jews don’t worship our Trinitarian God, then according to the OP they don’t worship the same God. All you’re doing is obfuscating the issue.

No, I’m clarifying the issue. You’re trying to obfuscate the issue by keeping the Jews out of the discussion, because as soon as they enter it the sheer folly and irrationality of your position becomes obvious.

I repeat my argument:

1. Jews do not worship the Trinitarian God.
2. Jews worship the God of the Old Testament.
3. The God of the Old Testament is our God.

Therefore, the claim that failure to worship the Trinity constitutes worship of a “different God” is plainly false.

I admit that I possibly overstated the case when I said that dzheremi’s position is *necessarily *Marcionite. The one possible way out is to deny that Jews worship the God of the Old Testament. That would imply that people in the Old Testament did worship the Trinity but that at some point afterward Jews stopped worshiping the Trinity. If you or dzheremi wants to defend such a position, go ahead and try. But that’s the only possible way out, since Jews quite clearly do not worship the Trinity today.

Is the God of Abraham the author of the Quran???

You’re obfuscating the question. Dzheremi said that *anyone *who doesn’t worship the Trinitarian God is not worshiping the true God. No “God of Abraham” loophole.

I am happy to discuss this question with you, as I have done many times in the past. But let’s address the argument dzheremi actually made. If you can’t defend that argument, join me in refuting it, and then we can discuss at leisure the points on which we do disagree.

Edwin

 

[Booklover]

What is there that makes you think that there is some other god that they are worshiping? Christian theology has always been that there is only one God. Some people call Him “Jesus;” some people call Him “Yahweh;” some people call Him “A God unknown” (see Acts 17:22-25); some people (both Arabic Christians and Arabic Muslims) call Him “Allah.”

So they get some – or, in some cases, a lot – of the details wrong. They aren’t worshiping some other god; they’re just getting the details wrong.

Why did God tell us we should not have other gods but him? Who is the author of the Quran?

---

Vickie

.

 

[PAboy57]

We all get wrapped up on something or some point sooner or later. Mother Church has seen it all and is pretty wise. My own point of view is – don’t let some group mess with your head when it comes to being a good Catholic. Accept it for what it is and move on. Not trying to simplify but don’t let it impact your faith.

 

[Godfollower]

Why did God tell us we should not have other gods but him?

He was telling us that there’s only one of Him – which is what I’m trying to say.

Who is the author of the Quran?

---

Mohammed.

 

[SSTeacher]

What is there that makes you think that there is some other god that they are worshiping? Christian theology has always been that there is only one God. Some people call Him “Jesus;” some people call Him “Yahweh;” some people call Him “A God unknown” (see Acts 17:22-25); some people (both Arabic Christians and Arabic Muslims) call Him “Allah.”

So they get some – or, in some cases, a lot – of the details wrong. They aren’t worshiping some other god; they’re just getting the details wrong.

It seems to me that the details are of the utmost importance. If details don’t matter then the Nicene Creed is not necessarily an accurate representation of Christian belief. The Muslims seem to be fairly clear about this issue. They don’t worship the undivided Trinity.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Della]

See, looked at from this perspective, I have no problem whatsoever. Certainly anyone can be saved. What I am having trouble with is this idea that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

They worship the God of Abraham and so do we. We understand that the God of Abraham is a Trinity and they do not. Why not? Because they don’t believe in the revelation of God given to us by Christ. Neither do the Jews. But, as Contirini explained, it is the same God we worship–it is just that Muslims cannot understand how God can be three persons with one essence. It makes no sense to them (or to the Jews).

Both the Jews and the Muslims claim we worship three gods, and you can see how they could come to that conclusion. Therefore, to them WE are the ones who are not worshiping the God of Abraham, but a made up entity they cannot accept. That they do not/cannot understand doesn’t mean they are not worshiping God, only that they have another theology about his essence. To us their theology is wrong and ours to them.

We accept Jesus as the Son of God because we believe his word. We believe his word because he rose from the dead. They do not because they do not/cannot/will not accept that Jesus is the Son of God. But, they do believe in the God of Abraham–the God all true worshipers of God believed in before Jesus’ birth. They simply aren’t buying the concept of the Trinity.

 

[Booklover]

Because they don’t worship the Trinitarian God.

No, I’m clarifying the issue. You’re trying to obfuscate the issue by keeping the Jews out of the discussion, because as soon as they enter it the sheer folly and irrationality of your position becomes obvious.

I repeat my argument:

1. Jews do not worship the Trinitarian God.
2. Jews worship the God of the Old Testament.
3. The God of the Old Testament is our God.

Therefore, the claim that failure to worship the Trinity constitutes worship of a “different God” is plainly false.

I admit that I possibly overstated the case when I said that dzheremi’s position is *necessarily *Marcionite. The one possible way out is to deny that Jews worship the God of the Old Testament. That would imply that people in the Old Testament did worship the Trinity but that at some point afterward Jews stopped worshiping the Trinity. If you or dzheremi wants to defend such a position, go ahead and try. But that’s the only possible way out, since Jews quite clearly do not worship the Trinity today.

I may have been too hasty in reading the OP and have no desire to defend the ridiculous scenario you’ve described here since I believe that the Jews worship the same God we do even if they don’t accept the Trinity. After all, God revealed himself to them first.

You’re obfuscating the question. Dzheremi said that *anyone *who doesn’t worship the Trinitarian God is not worshiping the true God. No “God of Abraham” loophole.

I am happy to discuss this question with you, as I have done many times in the past. But let’s address the argument dzheremi actually made. If you can’t defend that argument, join me in refuting it, and then we can discuss at leisure the points on which we do disagree.

Edwin

We’ll let Dzheremi answer this.

Vickie

 

[Godfollower]

It seems to me that the details are of the utmost importance. If details don’t matter then the Nicene Creed is not necessarily an accurate representation of Christian belief. The Muslims seem to be fairly clear about this issue. They don’t worship the undivided Trinity.

Cordially,
Mick

Oh, the details matter; I’m just saying that there’s only one God.

They worship God. He happens to be a Trinity. They deny that about Him, but that doesn’t mean they’re worshiping a demon instead; it just means that they missed something. Just like Jews worship Him but deny that the Messiah has already come – that doesn’t mean they’re worshiping a demon instead; it just means that they missed something.

To say that they worship a different god is to suggest that, at judgment day, we’ll go before God the Trinity to be judged, while they’ll go before Allah to be judged. That isn’t how it works.

 

[PJM]

=dzheremi - I have been disabused of a great many preconceived notions regarding religion, both Catholicism and other. But for the first time, starting about a month ago, I’ve actually come to disbelieve in something I previously believed in rather self-evident and hence elemental manner. That is to say, it seemed too obvious to need to be questioned. Given that I’d never even questioned it previously, I’m not quite sure where to go from here, or what it means overall for my faith.

I myself have quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on numerous occasions, and defended the position expressed therein quite strongly. It states:

CCC: 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I no longer believe this. I know, I know, so what, plenty of Catholics on here don’t accept this and not every sentence in the CCC is dogma, so why is this a thread…

My dear freind in Christ, I SUSPECT that you are only asking one question when two are called for In reading the Bible and or the Catecheism we must ask 1. What dies it say [you did this]. 2. We MUST ask also "what does it mean?

You attempted to do this but, I fear misssed the mark.

We must neither add to, nor take away from what is being stated and taught. The same as applies to the Bible.

The Catholic Church is NOT saying [or even implying] here that every Muslim is going to heaven! That would be a form of “predestination” simply ungodly and not at all possible!

What She is saying [and all that She is saying] is that like the Jewish nation, who too acknowledge Abraham as Spitirual Father, we [all Christians have this very signifiant fact in common.] Period! End of teaching!
But because of this commonality, we have at least an opportunity to a very special relationship.

Well, a few things bother me about the implications of this realization:

1. The CC has clearly taught error here in what can be reasonably deemed to be an official capacity. The implications of this vis-a-vis the veracity of other Catholic doctrines should be obvious.

1. While it does seem somewhat trivial in a way, the inclusion of such passages says a lot about the philosophy of some within the Church, and a lot of that makes me fairly uncomfortable (to put it diplomatically);

Friend, you’re reading way too much into this

1. in other ways, however, it is NOT at all trivial. There is no triviality at all in what we believe about God, because the proper worship of God is supposed to be at the heart of everything that we do as Christians and everything that we believe as a Church. For example, we can say that God truly is as He is in the Christian Trinity and we are to worship Him as He has commanded us to in Christianity, or we can be mealy-mouthed in our approach to this dimension of our faith and say that anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians when it comes to the question of who is worshipping what God.

CCC 841 in no specific way speaks of God, religion or the preactice thereoff. Please do not add what is not intended. **Nor does She speak of Muslims in any other passage. **

I have always maintained that the Muslims, for their part, get it right in terms of number ONLY (and only superficially so at that), as it is a basic truism of Christianity that there is, in fact, only one God. So, I thought to myself, as there’s only one God to begin with, it stands to reason that anyone who worships God must be worshipping that same God, however uncompletely or incorrectly. I can no longer hold this overly simplistic view, especially in light of the position I have expressed in threads like this one. I believe that the Trinity, and the CHRISTIAN Trinity at that, is the one true God. Not Islam’s Allah or Hinduism’s Vishnu or anything or anyone else. So I cannot, for the sake my own soul, say that these other gods, which are not the eternal and uncreated unity that is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, are somehow also my God.

I’m not so much concerned that this will have any practical effect on my relationship with Muslims or any other non-Christian, but unfortunately it and other incidents like it have already had a great effect on my relationship to my own Church. To be blunt: the cognitive dissonance created in the process of trying to make all this work is killing my faith in the Catholic Church.

You are quite frankly dear friend, blaming “The Church” for your own lack of understanding. How much sense does that make:shrug:

Were it just about Muslims and whether not they’ll be saved, I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to write any of this. I think it is really symptomatic of some deeper problems. I just don’t really know how to deal with them.

Such as? Please be specific and we’ll try to address each and every concern, which we agree are to you VERY REAL!

Am the only one who feels this way? Not necessarily about this issue, but…just the Church in general? I don’t want to be a dissident or a heretic. I want to be a good Catholic. I just don’t know what to do.

So talk to us, what else is bothering you? If you can be specific, then so can we in our replies.
**
Did what I share clear this issue up for you?**

 

[Contarini]

I have no desire to defend the ridiculous scenario you’ve described here since I believe that the Jews worship the same God we do even if they don’t accept the Trinity.

So let’s get this straight:

You agree with me that the fact that the Muslims do not believe in the Trinity is completely *irrelevant *to the question of whether they worship the same God we do? In other words, your belief that they do not is based on completely other grounds?

Edwin

 

[jakasaki]

I will let BookLover respond to your inquiry but she keeps asking the same question which is:

Originally Posted by Booklover
Who is the author of the Quran?

Who is the author of the koran?

The koran as claimed by islam is from God, but when you study the book (koran) it contradicts the God of the Bible as it is is revealed in the OT & NT.

Many of us, I for one, here believe the same. The God of the koran is not the God of our scriptures.

Perhaps this is Dzheremi’s dilema as well.

 

[dzheremi]

It is because the details matter that this is causing a problem for me. If it is merely a matter of recognizing God in number only, and disregarding other things that we believe to be true about Him, then it would seem that a great number of non-Christian religions are “right enough” so as to be acceptable within the boundaries of Christian belief and practice. Ultimately, I do not believe that’s how this works.

Edwin: I have explained already the thinking behind the OP, but for your benefit I will do it again. Perhaps then you will see why I do not find your argument necessary to address.

For one thing, the passage in question does not address the Jews. Certainly, the issues that divide Christians and Jews are at least somewhat different than those that might divide Christians and Muslims, given the respective origins and histories of the faiths.

And again, despite what I now see as easily misunderstood phrasing on my part, I really started this thread because I am not sure what constitutes the correct relationship of the Christian to these other faiths, not the other way around. The opposite question is for the other faith to determine, in accordance with their principles, and to the extent that I have seen such arguments occur here and elsewhere, it seems like Islam’s relationship to the other faiths is somewhat fluid, to say the least. So I can only ultimately concern myself with what is right for Christians and Christianity.

This is why I have phrased the OP mostly in the first person, because I am talking about what is appropriate and faithful to MY religion. I did not start this thread to condemn or harangue others, but because I am concerned about adhering to the truth of my religion in all ways.