Something that has been bothering me for a while now

[jakasaki]

It is because the details matter that this is causing a problem for me. If it is merely a matter of recognizing God in number only, and disregarding other things that we believe to be true about Him, then it would seem that a great number of non-Christian religions are “right enough” so as to be acceptable within the boundaries of Christian belief and practice. Ultimately, I do not believe that’s how this works.

Edwin: I have explained already the thinking behind the OP, but for your benefit I will do it again. Perhaps then you will see why I do not find your argument necessary to address.

For one thing, the passage in question does not address the Jews. Certainly, the issues that divide Christians and Jews are at least somewhat different than those that might divide Christians and Muslims, given the respective origins and histories of the faiths.

And again, despite what I now see as easily misunderstood phrasing on my part, I really started this thread because I am not sure what constitutes the correct relationship of the Christian to these other faiths, not the other way around. The opposite question is for the other faith to determine, in accordance with their principles, and to the extent that I have seen such arguments occur here and elsewhere, it seems like Islam’s relationship to the other faiths is somewhat fluid, to say the least. So I can only ultimately concern myself with what is right for Christians and Christianity.

This is why I have phrased the OP mostly in the first person, because I am talking about what is appropriate and faithful to MY religion. I did not start this thread to condemn or harangue others, but because I am concerned about adhering to the truth of my religion in all ways.

:hug1: for you my dear!

 

[Godfollower]

I will let BookLover respond to your inquiry but she keeps asking the same question which is:

Who is the author of the Quran?

Who is the author of the koran?

The koran as claimed by islam is from God, but when you study the book (koran) it contradicts the God of the Bible as it is is revealed in the OT & NT.

Many of us, I for one, here believe the same. The God of the koran is not the God of our scriptures.

Perhaps this is Dzheremi’s dilema as well.

Mohammed is the author of the Quran. He claimed that he was inspired by God when he wrote it, but he was incorrect. The Quran’s description of God is inaccurate, but that doesn’t mean that there’s some other god out there besides the true God. Mohammed got it wrong. His followers, therefore, have been sadly misled.

But there’s only one God, and that’s who they’re worshiping. They just don’t understand Him (but then, we don’t know everything about Him, either).

 

[dzheremi]

CCC 841 in no specific way speaks of God, religion or the preactice thereoff. Please do not add what is not intended. **Nor does She speak of Muslims in any other passage. **

With due respect, I think you incorrect to insist that CCC 841 does not talk about the practice of religion or about God. In as much as the Catechism is entirely about the practice of our faith, I don’t see how you can disregard it in such a way in this passage. Moreover, it would seem to me that “together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day” is most certainly talking about God and religion.

You are quite frankly dear friend, blaming “The Church” for your own lack of understanding. How much sense does that make:shrug:

Er…not really. I thought I was admitting my own lack of understanding when I opened this thread, asking for help. The text as printed in CCC 841 remains as it is regardless of who I “blame”, though, so I don’t see what difference it would make either way. I certainly don’t mean to imply that it is somehow the Church’s fault that I don’t understand it as she intends. That is indeed my fault, and I’m trying to correct it. But understanding something as the Catholic position and assenting to it are two different things, so even if I come to understand it in a dispassionate sort of way, it doesn’t then follow that my heart will be in it. Call it a side-effect of the overly scholastic nature of Roman Catholicism, if you will. The book says it, but then what? That’s it? Libra locuta, finita est?

Such as? Please be specific and we’ll try to address each and every concern, which we agree are to you VERY REAL!

Could you please try to phrase things in a way that is a little less condescending? I realize this is most likely an innocent mistake, as much as in my reading of your words as in your writing of the same, but writing “…we agree are to you VERY REAL!” strikes me as belittling what I mean to be a serious topic and a serious discussion. God and the worship of God within Christianity are serious topics.

So talk to us, what else is bothering you? If you can be specific, then so can we in our replies.
**
Did what I share clear this issue up for you?**

Not really, no, but thank you very much for sincerely trying. I do appreciate it.

 

[bookgirl32]

How can human belief about God change who God is?

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5848348:

It seems to me that the details are of the utmost importance. If details don’t matter then the Nicene Creed is not necessarily an accurate representation of Christian belief. The Muslims seem to be fairly clear about this issue. They don’t

worship the undivided Trinity.

Cordially,
Mick
:thumbsup:Oh, the details matter; I’m just saying that there’s only one God.

I agree.

They worship God. He happens to be a Trinity.

God revealed Himself to us and they rejected His revelation. But is their rejection mere happenstance? I would suggest not. In fact, I’d go so far as to suggest that it required a conscious effort. The idea that the undivided Trinity – the inner nature of the One True God – can be consigned to the category of “just a minor detail that anybody might overlook” doesn’t fit well here, don’t you agree?

They deny that about Him

They do indeed and it’s surely a pivotal point – for them, anyway, even if not for us.

but that doesn’t mean they’re worshiping a demon instead; it just means that they missed something.

But is the idea that they “missed something” an accurate reflection of the historical record? I think it’s reasonable to posit that Islam constitutes much more than mere forgetfulness or lack of attention to detail. Moreover, to categorize it as such doesn’t seem to me to be particularly helpful.

Just like Jews worship Him but deny that the Messiah has already come – that doesn’t mean they’re worshiping a demon instead; it just means that they missed something.

Don’t you think it would be more accurate to declare that they missed everything – from a Christian perspective, that is?

To say that they worship a different god is to suggest that, at judgment day, we’ll go before God the Trinity to be judged, while they’ll go before Allah to be judged.

It’s a possible inference, I suppose, but as there is in reality only one God I would surmise that very few monotheists would be likely to go for it.

That isn’t how it works.

No, it isn’t (cf. Matthew 25:31–46).

Peace,
Mick

 

[dzheremi]

How can human belief about God change who God is?

It can’t, of course, but then what are the implications of this? As I said in another post, God is truly One, but that’s not the end of the story,

 

[Godfollower]

Godfollower;5848425:

Oh, the details matter; I’m just saying that there’s only one God.

I agree.

They worship God. He happens to be a Trinity.

God revealed Himself to us and they rejected His revelation. But is their rejection mere happenstance? I would suggest not. In fact, I’d go so far as to suggest that it required a conscious effort. The idea that the undivided Trinity – the inner nature of the One True God – can be consigned to the category of “just a minor detail that anybody might overlook” doesn’t fit well here, don’t you agree?

Sure, they’ve affirmatively denied one of the very basic attributes of God. But that doesn’t mean they don’t worship Him, any more than my denying your gender or age means that I’m not communicating with you.

Godfollower;5848425:

They deny that about Him

They do indeed and it’s surely a pivotal point – for them, anyway, even if not for us.

but that doesn’t mean they’re worshiping a demon instead; it just means that they missed something.

But is the idea that they “missed something” an accurate reflection of the historical record? I think it’s reasonable to posit that Islam constitutes much more than mere forgetfulness or lack of attention to detail. Moreover, to categorize it as such doesn’t seem to me to be particularly helpful.

Perhaps my predilection for humorous understatement was confusing. I’m not saying their denial of the Trinity is unimportant; I’m just saying that their understanding of God is incomplete – much more incomplete than our understanding, but incomplete. But if not knowing everything there is to know about God is a barrier to worshiping Him, then no one can worship Him, because no human other than Jesus can understand Him.

Godfollower;5848425:

Just like Jews worship Him but deny that the Messiah has already come – that doesn’t mean they’re worshiping a demon instead; it just means that they missed something.

Don’t you think it would be more accurate to declare that they missed everything – from a Christian perspective, that is?

Actually, Jews and Muslims alike agree with some of our teachings. Not all of them, and not even completely the same ones. But there is agreement.

Godfollower;5848425:

To say that they worship a different

god is to suggest that, at judgment day, we’ll go before God the Trinity to be judged, while they’ll go before Allah to be judged.

It’s a possible inference, I suppose, but as there is in reality only one God I would surmise that very few monotheists would be likely to go for it.

That isn’t how it works.

No, it isn’t (cf. Matthew 25:31–46).

Peace,
Mick

What I’m saying is that this focus on “THEY WORSHIP A DIFFERENT GOD, NOT THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!” misses the entire point. There’s only one God! They can’t possibly be worshiping a different god, because there is no other God!

From a theological perspective, arguing that the Muslims (or anyone else, for that matter) worship a different god presupposes a fallacy: that there is some other god out there to be worshiped.

From an evangelistic perspective, telling the Muslims that they’re worshiping the wrong god is counterproductive, because (A) it suggests that there is more than one god in the first place, which isn’t exactly helpful; and (B) you’re much more likely to get good results if you simply show them how their worship of the one true God is mistaken, and they simply need to correct themselves.

From a catechetical perspective, this argument presupposes an inaccuracy in the Catechism, which is a problematical starting point to say the least. CCC ¶ 841 only says three things: Muslims acknowledge the Creator; Muslims profess to follow the faith of Abraham; Muslims adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. The first two statements are clearly true and not part of this thread as I understand it; you appear to be challenging the last statement. But all it says is that the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day, is adored by Muslims. Clearly they adore Him; inability to describe Him correctly isn’t a barrier to adoring Him – just ask any Catholic parent who watches his or her child worship God without having a clue what “virgin” means. So the third statement is true, too. CCC ¶ 841 doesn’t mean Muslims are saved; it simply says that they adore Him.

From a doctrinal perspective, this argument is even more problematical, because it challenges Lumen Gentium, a conciliar document from Vatican II – meaning that challenging it goes to the heart of the Church’s teachings.

And, finally, from a Scriptural perspective, Muslims were foreshadowed by the Athenians in Acts 17, when Paul said, “For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you . . . .”

When faced with a problem that suggests that the Church is mistaken, it is usually a good idea to question whether you’ve misunderstood what the Church is teaching. I’m suggesting that the Muslims are worshiping God without understanding Him, just like the Athenians. Focus on expanding their understanding of God, not on where they’ve gone wrong.

Peace to you, too.

 

[flaco40]

I watched the G. K. Chesterton show on EWTN Sat Night and they said he ( Chesterton ) thought of Islam as a heresy… A heresy being a set of beliefs with some of the truth but not all of it. So in that sense Islam is no different than Lutherans or other protestants. What do you think? I like this thread by the way… Thank you all.

 

[PJM]

=Contarini;5848496]So let’s get this straight:

You agree with me that the fact that the Muslims do not believe in the Trinity is completely *irrelevant *to the question of whether they worship the same God we do? In other words, your belief that they do not is based on completely other grounds?

Edwin

Dear Brother in Christ.

God has chosen to reveal Himself as the One God, inTHREE Divine [completely equal] Persons of Father, Son and holy Spirit for humanities benefit. God certainly knows well who and what God is.

Thus we can deduce there must be a reason for this fact. That reason, I suspect has to do with the enormity, the vastness of God.

Because it is God seeking a personal relationship with His Humanity, before man in turn tries to bond a relationship with God, the more simple the Person of God made to be, the easier it is for us to get a glimce of God that we can eagerally embrace.

That said: Any person, religion or “church” that denies the reality of our TRIUNE God-Head is NOT, cannot be serving and worshiping the same God as Catholics and Christians.

They have built for themselves false gods, idols, that certainly are not God!

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[dzheremi]

Flaco40: Several early Christian critics essentially recognized Islam as being a form of Christian heresy as well, given that its conception of Christ and God is ultimately rooted in the heretical beliefs that circulated in Arabia at that time. St. John Damascene wrote a great refutation of Islamic claims that is contemparenous with the early days of Islam in its antiquity. See this page for his argumentation.

 

[flaco40]

Dear Brother in Christ.

God has chosen to reveal Himself as the One God, inTHREE Divine [completely equal] Persons of Father, Son and holy Spirit for humanities benefit. God certainly knows well who and what God is.

Thus we can deduce there must be a reason for this fact. That reason, I suspect has to do with the enormity, the vastness of God.

Because it is God seeking a personal relationship with His Humanity, before man in turn tries to bond a relationship with God, the more simple the Person of God made to be, the easier it is for us to get a glimce of God that we can eagerally embrace.

That said: Any person, religion or “church” that denies the reality of our TRIUNE God-Head is NOT, cannot be serving and worshiping the same God as Catholics and Christians.

They have built for themselves false gods, idols, that certainly are not God!

Love and prayers,

Pat

Isn’t it for God to decide if they are or are not following Him? We can certainly opine but in the end what we say is still conjecture. Jesus will decide that part of the equation when the time comes. I think the thing to focus on is to make sure that none of this draws anyone away from the Church.

 

[flaco40]

When I think of Islam, I always go back to the story in Genesis of Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, and Ishmael. Remember God promises to make Ishmaels people as numerous as the stars in the Heavens also. And then I found out that Islam actually means submission and Muslim means one who submits and that their belief is oriented towards being the slaves or servants of God ( perhaps decended from the slaves of Gods favorite Abraham?) . We on the other hand see ourselves as the children of God. Much as Isaac was the true child of Abraham through Sarah. I know there are those who will say I am reading too much into this but when I think about it it makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck! Don’t worry God has a plan, and as a Christian psychologist friend of mine says " I peeked at the back of thwe book, ( the Bible ) and we win!"

 

[PJM]

=dzheremi;5848645]With due respect, I think you incorrect to insist that CCC 841 does not talk about the practice of religion or about God. In as much as the Catechism is entirely about the practice of our faith, I don’t see how you can disregard it in such a way in this passage. Moreover, it would seem to me that “together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day” is most certainly talking about God and religion.

Er…not really. I thought I was admitting my own lack of understanding when I opened this thread, asking for help. The text as printed in CCC 841 remains as it is regardless of who I “blame”, though, so I don’t see what difference it would make either way. I certainly don’t mean to imply that it is somehow the Church’s fault that I don’t understand it as she intends. That is indeed my fault, and I’m trying to correct it. But understanding something as the Catholic position and assenting to it are two different things, so even if I come to understand it in a dispassionate sort of way, it doesn’t then follow that my heart will be in it. Call it a side-effect of the overly scholastic nature of Roman Catholicism, if you will. The book says it, but then what? That’s it? Libra locuta, finita est?

Could you please try to phrase things in a way that is a little less condescending? I realize this is most likely an innocent mistake, as much as in my reading of your words as in your writing of the same, but writing “…we agree are to you VERY REAL!” strikes me as belittling what I mean to be a serious topic and a serious discussion. God and the worship of God within Christianity are serious topics.

I am truly sorry for offending you. Such was neither a goal or intent. PLEASE forgive me:blush:

Not really, no, but thank you very much for sincerely trying. I do appreciate it.

If there are other issues troubling you, I would be willing to share what i know about the subject.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Godfollower]

Dear Brother in Christ.

God has chosen to reveal Himself as the One God, inTHREE Divine [completely equal] Persons of Father, Son and holy Spirit for humanities benefit. God certainly knows well who and what God is.

Thus we can deduce there must be a reason for this fact. That reason, I suspect has to do with the enormity, the vastness of God.

Because it is God seeking a personal relationship with His Humanity, before man in turn tries to bond a relationship with God, the more simple the Person of God made to be, the easier it is for us to get a glimce of God that we can eagerally embrace.

That said: Any person, religion or “church” that denies the reality of our TRIUNE God-Head is NOT, cannot be serving and worshiping the same God as Catholics and Christians.

They have built for themselves false gods, idols, that certainly are not God!

Love and prayers,

Pat

If you’re right, then Jews also are not worshiping the same God as Catholics and Christians, because they clearly deny the reality of a “TRIUNE God-Head.”

And that doesn’t make sense.

(Plus, it requires the Catholic Church to have taught error, both in Lumen Gentium and in the Catechism).

Ergo, your understanding is incorrect.

Jews worship the same God Catholics do. They deny His triune nature; they deny Jesus’ divinity; they deny a LOT of Jesus’ teachings; they deny the veracity of the New Testament; in short, they deny a lot of our Faith.

The same goes for Muslims.

But they all worship THE ONLY GOD THERE IS, EVER WAS, AND EVER WILL BE.

They aren’t guaranteed salvation (of course, who is?), but that’s not the point of CCC ¶ 841. All it says is that they adore the one, true God.

Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.

To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name. The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

Catechism of the Catholic Church ¶¶ 2096-97.

They do that. There’s a lot they get wrong, but they adore God.

 

[dzheremi]

I am truly sorry for offending you. Such was neither a goal or intent. PLEASE forgive me:blush:

I understand, and do not hold any ill will towards you whatsoever. I know you are trying to help, and I really do appreciate it. As I wrote, I’m sure my interpetation is part of the reason why that particular sentence rubbed me the wrong way, but I know that you mean well. Thank you.

 

[CDNowak]

Personally, I am with Lewis: enough of this Tashlan nonsense, however…
The Last Battle:

“I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, ‘Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one?’ The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, ‘It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites - I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For he and I are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash is his deed accepted.’”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Throughout my year or so here I have been disabused of a great many preconceived notions regarding religion, both Catholicism and other. But for the first time, starting about a month ago, I’ve actually come to disbelieve in something I previously believed in rather self-evident and hence elemental manner. That is to say, it seemed too obvious to need to be questioned. Given that I’d never even questioned it previously, I’m not quite sure where to go from here, or what it means overall for my faith.

I myself have quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on numerous occasions, and defended the position expressed therein quite strongly. It states:

I no longer believe this. I know, I know, so what, plenty of Catholics on here don’t accept this and not every sentence in the CCC is dogma, so why is this a thread…

Well, a few things bother me about the implications of this realization:

1. The CC has clearly taught error here in what can be reasonably deemed to be an official capacity. The implications of this vis-a-vis the veracity of other Catholic doctrines should be obvious.
2. While it does seem somewhat trivial in a way, the inclusion of such passages says a lot about the philosophy of some within the Church, and a lot of that makes me fairly uncomfortable (to put it diplomatically);
3. in other ways, however, it is NOT at all trivial. There is no triviality at all in what we believe about God, because the proper worship of God is supposed to be at the heart of everything that we do as Christians and everything that we believe as a Church. For example, we can say that God truly is as He is in the Christian Trinity and we are to worship Him as He has commanded us to in Christianity, or we can be mealy-mouthed in our approach to this dimension of our faith and say that anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians when it comes to the question of who is worshipping what God.

I have always maintained that the Muslims, for their part, get it right in terms of number ONLY (and only superficially so at that), as it is a basic truism of Christianity that there is, in fact, only one God. So, I thought to myself, as there’s only one God to begin with, it stands to reason that anyone who worships God must be worshipping that same God, however uncompletely or incorrectly. I can no longer hold this overly simplistic view, especially in light of the position I have expressed in threads like this one. I believe that the Trinity, and the CHRISTIAN Trinity at that, is the one true God. Not Islam’s Allah or Hinduism’s Vishnu or anything or anyone else. So I cannot, for the sake my own soul, say that these other gods, which are not the eternal and uncreated unity that is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, are somehow also my God.

I’m not so much concerned that this will have any practical effect on my relationship with Muslims or any other non-Christian, but unfortunately it and other incidents like it have already had a great effect on my relationship to my own Church. To be blunt: the cognitive dissonance created in the process of trying to make all this work is killing my faith in the Catholic Church.

Were it just about Muslims and whether not they’ll be saved, I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to write any of this. I think it is really symptomatic of some deeper problems. I just don’t really know how to deal with them.

Am the only one who feels this way? Not necessarily about this issue, but…just the Church in general? I don’t want to be a dissident or a heretic. I want to be a good Catholic. I just don’t know what to do.

If there is only one God, then that God is the one in whom non-Christian monotheists believe. AFAICS, that is all that the V2 Declaration Nostra Aetate (here quoted by CCC 841) is saying.​

The emphasis is not on how Muslims describe God, but on Who it is Who is described. Does a cat become a cheese by being called one ? So with God - the One God is the One God, no matter what name is given Him, no matter what people think
about Him.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I watched the G. K. Chesterton show on EWTN Sat Night and they said he ( Chesterton ) thought of Islam as a heresy… A heresy being a set of beliefs with some of the truth but not all of it. So in that sense Islam is no different than Lutherans or other protestants. What do you think? I like this thread by the way… Thank you all.

Muslims do not have faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour & Lord - unlike Protestants. FWIW​

 

[2nd_Adam]

Throughout my year or so here I have been disabused of a great many preconceived notions regarding religion, both Catholicism and other. But for the first time, starting about a month ago, I’ve actually come to disbelieve in something I previously believed in rather self-evident and hence elemental manner. That is to say, it seemed too obvious to need to be questioned. Given that I’d never even questioned it previously, I’m not quite sure where to go from here, or what it means overall for my faith.

I myself have quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on numerous occasions, and defended the position expressed therein quite strongly. It states:

I no longer believe this. I know, I know, so what, plenty of Catholics on here don’t accept this and not every sentence in the CCC is dogma, so why is this a thread…

Well, a few things bother me about the implications of this realization:

1. The CC has clearly taught error here in what can be reasonably deemed to be an official capacity. The implications of this vis-a-vis the veracity of other Catholic doctrines should be obvious.
2. While it does seem somewhat trivial in a way, the inclusion of such passages says a lot about the philosophy of some within the Church, and a lot of that makes me fairly uncomfortable (to put it diplomatically);
3. in other ways, however, it is NOT at all trivial. There is no triviality at all in what we believe about God, because the proper worship of God is supposed to be at the heart of everything that we do as Christians and everything that we believe as a Church. For example, we can say that God truly is as He is in the Christian Trinity and we are to worship Him as He has commanded us to in Christianity, or we can be mealy-mouthed in our approach to this dimension of our faith and say that anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians when it comes to the question of who is worshipping what God.

I have always maintained that the Muslims, for their part, get it right in terms of number ONLY (and only superficially so at that), as it is a basic truism of Christianity that there is, in fact, only one God. So, I thought to myself, as there’s only one God to begin with, it stands to reason that anyone who worships God must be worshipping that same God, however uncompletely or incorrectly. I can no longer hold this overly simplistic view, especially in light of the position I have expressed in threads like this one. I believe that the Trinity, and the CHRISTIAN Trinity at that, is the one true God. Not Islam’s Allah or Hinduism’s Vishnu or anything or anyone else. So I cannot, for the sake my own soul, say that these other gods, which are not the eternal and uncreated unity that is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, are somehow also my God.

I’m not so much concerned that this will have any practical effect on my relationship with Muslims or any other non-Christian, but unfortunately it and other incidents like it have already had a great effect on my relationship to my own Church. To be blunt: the cognitive dissonance created in the process of trying to make all this work is killing my faith in the Catholic Church.

Were it just about Muslims and whether not they’ll be saved, I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to write any of this. I think it is really symptomatic of some deeper problems. I just don’t really know how to deal with them.

Am the only one who feels this way? Not necessarily about this issue, but…just the Church in general? I don’t want to be a dissident or a heretic. I want to be a good Catholic. I just don’t know what to do.

Thanks for sharing your struggles. It is very edifying to Christians. I believe Martin Luther struggled enormously about being a good Catholic and what he discerned to be the truth. It’s interesting that you started this thread when Reformation Day is just around the corner. I believe in divine providence, and I know nothing happens by chance.

 

[dzheremi]

Sorry, 2nd Adam, but I don’t know anything about this “Reformation Day” that you have referenced several times on this board. Call it providence if you want, but I wouldn’t.