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dzheremi
Guest
Wow. You mean people really celebrate the further fracturing of the Body of Christ? 
I have to be honest, I don’t like that at all, and I don’t see how any other Christian can. That’s just sad.
I have to be honest, I don’t like that at all, and I don’t see how any other Christian can. That’s just sad.
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flaco40
Guest
Agreed- But if a heresy is an incomplete truth that is just a level of incompleteness. Isn’t it?
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flaco40
Guest
Thank you very much. I don’t have time to read all of this right now but from what I did see it is something that I will really enjoy. Thanks
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Well, it’s a choice of Sacred Scripture over Sacred Tradition. As a Protestant, I believe Sacred Scripture is the authorative Word of God, and it is by God the Holy Spirit who illuminates our minds to understand the Scriptures. That is the Protestant perspective of sola scriptura; therefore Reformation Day is a great day for us! It’s interesting to watch your struggles on a very basic Christian truth.Wow. You mean people really celebrate the further fracturing of the Body of Christ?
I have to be honest, I don’t like that at all, and I don’t see how any other Christian can. That’s just sad.
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Booklover
Guest
Well, the Holy Spirit must not be doing such a good job in illuminating your minds since there are countless Protestant denominations and no two can agree on what the Bible says! So much for your Sola Scriptura. Since God is not the author of confusion, maybe what he’s trying to tell you is that is not what he intended in the first place.
Vickie
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SSTeacher
Guest
Hi dzheremi,
As far as I can understand it, the God of the Qur’an is not the God of the Christians. It seems to me, then, that either the Christians or the Muslims are in error. They cannot both be right. Either one or the other is worshiping a false god. The Muslims are quite clear about where they stand.
Perhaps the real difficulty with which you’re having to wrestle is the post–conciliar newspeak that the Catholic Church now seems to favor?
Cordially,
Mick
There certainly seems to be a difference of opinion on the Christian side as to how Islamic beliefs should be understood and represented. But how do Muslims themselves understand and represent their beliefs? Uninterested in religious correctness they assert without equivocation that the concept of the Trinity is utterly foreign to them. In fact, they regard the act of ascribing partners to God, which they believe Christians have done, as blasphemy. It’s been some time since I read the Qur’an so I hope that I have stated Islamic belief correctly, here.
As far as I can understand it, the God of the Qur’an is not the God of the Christians. It seems to me, then, that either the Christians or the Muslims are in error. They cannot both be right. Either one or the other is worshiping a false god. The Muslims are quite clear about where they stand.
Perhaps the real difficulty with which you’re having to wrestle is the post–conciliar newspeak that the Catholic Church now seems to favor?
Cordially,
Mick
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Godfollower
Guest
Yes, they’re quite clear: they deny that the only God who is, ever was, and ever will be is in fact three Persons in one God.Hi dzheremi,
There certainly seems to be a difference of opinion on the Christian side as to how Islamic beliefs should be understood and represented. But how do Muslims themselves understand and represent their beliefs? Uninterested in religious correctness they assert without equivocation that the concept of the Trinity is utterly foreign to them. In fact, they regard the act of ascribing partners to God, which they believe Christians have done, as blasphemy. It’s been some time since I read the Qur’an so I hope that I have stated Islamic belief correctly, here.
As far as I can understand it, the God of the Qur’an is not the God of the Christians. It seems to me, then, that either the Christians or the Muslims are in error. They cannot both be right. Either one or the other is worshiping a false god. The Muslims are quite clear about where they stand.
Yes, they’re quite clear: They deny the fact that ****
Perhaps the real difficulty with which you’re having to wrestle is the post–conciliar newspeak that the Catholic Church now seems to favor?
Cordially,
Mick
But that doesn’t mean that He isn’t three Persons; they’re simply describing Him incorrectly.
Let’s say that I flip a coin and hide the result. You claim that it landed heads-up; Dzheremi claims that it landed heads-down. I know the result, but I haven’t told either one of you (or you each claim that I have revealed the result to you individually, and your accounts of my revelation differ). Meanwhile, 2nd Adam is running around claiming that there is no coin; it’s all a fraud.
If Dzheremi claimed that you were discussing (and, perhaps, betting on) two different coins, would you agree? Because that’s the equivalent to what you’re saying: the fact that Muslims and Christians describe the one, true God differently means (to you) that there are two separate entities being worshiped.
In fact, however, there is only one coin, and its head is pointing whichever way it’s pointing. When the Big Day comes and I reveal it, 2nd Adam will be surprised (“Hey! There really was a coin all along!”), one of you will turn to have been right about which way it was pointing, and one of you will turn to have been wrong.
But there was a coin, and you were both betting on the same one.
Similarly, Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the one, true God. The fact that Jews and Muslims don’t understand Him correctly doesn’t mean that they don’t worship Him – any more than the fact that the Israelites didn’t know about the Trinity means that they worshiped a different God.
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CDNowak
Guest
The problem with saying that they are the same God is that the god of the Q’ran is irreconcilable with the God of the Bible. This god may have been the invention of Mohammed (it certainly worked out rather well for him), or a deception by those that would be gods (fallen angels).
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Booklover
Guest
Yes, I believe that on other grounds. Just like Dzheremi, I find the statement “together with us they worship the one true God” disturbing the more I learn about Islam. It also gives it a distinction that it does not deserve. Islam is not connected to previous scriptures. It is not the continuation or fulfillment of those scriptures. It has nothing whatsoever to do with previous revelations. In order to be accepted as a prophet, Muhammad had to claim kinship with those prior revelations and claimed his belief in the God of Abraham to further his goals. By doing this he gave validity to his big lie, Islam.
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The Quran is another fabrication of Muhammad’s and so is the god revealed there. I find it simplistic to accept that because there is only one God, everyone worships him no matter how they think of him or want to think of him. Muhammad deliberately created the god who speaks in the Quran because he wanted supreme power for himself. In other words it’s Muhammad’s false god and alter ego that Muslims really worship. How can the despicable “god” of the Quran be the one true God! It’s that “god” that tells Muslims they’re the “best of creation” and that gives Muslims the right to infidel lands and infidel women, the right to subjugate and make us second class citizens, force us to pay an extortion tax for “protection” torture us and kill us and so on and so on. NO, the god of Islam is not the God of Abraham!
Vickie
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dzheremi
Guest
I understand what you’re saying, Godfollower, but I feel like I should remind you that I started this thread out of a concern for the integrity of the CHRISTIAN belief in God, which is in the Triune God. I don’t want to muddy that up.
Besides, your hypothetical situation strikes me as insufficient. Even if we all agree there is one coin, that isn’t very helpful. In the situation as I imagine it, the Christian, the Jew, and the Muslim begin to discuss the attributes of the “coin”. Maybe the Jew thinks it’s a dime, while the Christian thinks it’s a quarter. The Muslim, not wishing to have his guess too closely tied into those of the Jew or the Christian, decides to be tricky and guess that it’s a dollar. When the Christian and the Jew remind him that this is ridiculous since you can’t flip a dollar, and it’s pretty darn obvious that a dollar is not a coin, the Muslim tells them it’s all money, and besides, a dollar is “greater” than a measly dime or quarter, and so wouldn’t we all like a dollar…
(Maybe the Christian buys into this and joins the Muslim so that he can enjoy the dollar, too, until he realizes that he can’t buy music or alcohol or porkchops or a nice pair of driving gloves for his girlfriend with it, and that he can only transfer the dollar to other Muslims, whereas he could do anything with his quarter back when he was a Christian…sometimes less is more, eh?
But I digress…)
Besides, your hypothetical situation strikes me as insufficient. Even if we all agree there is one coin, that isn’t very helpful. In the situation as I imagine it, the Christian, the Jew, and the Muslim begin to discuss the attributes of the “coin”. Maybe the Jew thinks it’s a dime, while the Christian thinks it’s a quarter. The Muslim, not wishing to have his guess too closely tied into those of the Jew or the Christian, decides to be tricky and guess that it’s a dollar. When the Christian and the Jew remind him that this is ridiculous since you can’t flip a dollar, and it’s pretty darn obvious that a dollar is not a coin, the Muslim tells them it’s all money, and besides, a dollar is “greater” than a measly dime or quarter, and so wouldn’t we all like a dollar…
(Maybe the Christian buys into this and joins the Muslim so that he can enjoy the dollar, too, until he realizes that he can’t buy music or alcohol or porkchops or a nice pair of driving gloves for his girlfriend with it, and that he can only transfer the dollar to other Muslims, whereas he could do anything with his quarter back when he was a Christian…sometimes less is more, eh?
But I digress…)
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Godfollower
Guest
No, the description of God in the Quran is an inaccurate description of the only God who ever existed. Mohammed made it all up. But there is only one God. And the Muslims worship Him. Perfectly? No. And the rest of the Catechism makes clear that salvation does not come from Islam.
All CCC ¶ 841 says is that they adore the only God Who exists.
It doesn’t say they understand Him.
It doesn’t say they teach facts about Him correctly.
It doesn’t say Mohammed was a prophet of any kind.
It doesn’t say the Quran is correct. Or even inspired.
It doesn’t say that Islam is the way (or even a way) to salvation.
It just says that they adore God.
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Contarini
Guest
But other passages do–in fact, the preceding paragraph in the Catechism does. And anyway, I don’t see why that is relevant. I’m talking about the implications of the argument you are making against what the Catechism says about the Muslims. That argument has implications for the Jews, because they don’t believe in the Trinity either.
You’re dodging. You used an argument (Muslim disbelief in the Trinity) which clearly applies to Jews.
Of course many *other *issues are different. There are other arguments (see Booklover’s posts) for why Muslims don’t worship the true God which do not apply to Jews. We can discuss those arguments if you wish. But the argument you chose to use *does *apply to Jews, because Jews don’t believe in the Trinity any more than Muslims do. And you need to address this. If you want to talk about the ways in which Jews differ from Muslims in their relationship to the Christian doctrine of God, then do so. But you didn’t do that. You picked an issue on which Jews and Muslims are in agreement, so what’s good for one is good for the other.
But your position is incoherent unless you are willing to take the position of Marcion, which is not orthodox Christianity. So if you care about the truth of the Christian Faith, you shouldn’t be making this argument. It is either blatantly irrational or blatantly heretical.
Edwin
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Godfollower
Guest
Yes, you’re absolutely correct. Mohammad made it all up.
They aren’t worshiping a false god; they’re misled about God. No “god” told Muslims to do anything; Mohammed did.
You need to remember that the Quran is a work of fiction. By claiming that the Muslims worship a different god, you’re elevating fiction to reality status. That’s a bad idea, both practically and theologically.
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SSTeacher
Guest
Your argument is perfectly valid and if that is the official Catholic view then that’s fine with me. However, Vickie, who is a Catholic – and evidently an enthusiastic one – clearly does not agree with your stance as she posted the following.
And now she’s just posted this:
I agree with Vickie. However, that’s somewhat beside the point. The point is that dzheremi is struggling with the idea that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. Give him some support commensurate with Hebrews 3:13, why don’t you?
Cordially,
Mick
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Godfollower
Guest
The point of the hypothetical is that, once the coin is revealed – that is, once we each die – we see the truth: there’s only one coin. And it’s the quarter that the Christians claimed all along. The Jews and Muslims alike say, “Whoops! I was describing the coin incorrectly!”I understand what you’re saying, Godfollower, but I feel like I should remind you that I started this thread out of a concern for the integrity of the CHRISTIAN belief in God, which is in the Triune God. I don’t want to muddy that up.
Besides, your hypothetical situation strikes me as insufficient. Even if we all agree there is one coin, that isn’t very helpful. In the situation as I imagine it, the Christian, the Jew, and the Muslim begin to discuss the attributes of the “coin”. Maybe the Jew thinks it’s a dime, while the Christian thinks it’s a quarter. The Muslim, not wishing to have his guess too closely tied into those of the Jew or the Christian, decides to be tricky and guess that it’s a dollar. When the Christian and the Jew remind him that this is ridiculous since you can’t flip a dollar, and it’s pretty darn obvious that a dollar is not a coin, the Muslim tells them it’s all money, and besides, a dollar is “greater” than a measly dime or quarter, and so wouldn’t we all like a dollar…
(Maybe the Christian buys into this and joins the Muslim so that he can enjoy the dollar, too, until he realizes that he can’t buy music or alcohol or porkchops or a nice pair of driving gloves for his girlfriend with it, and that he can only transfer the dollar to other Muslims, whereas he could do anything with his quarter back when he was a Christian…sometimes less is more, eh?
But they were still talking about one and only one coin.
As for the original point of the thread: The Christian belief – which happens to be true, unlike the non-Christian beliefs – is that God is a Trinity of three Persons in one God. We adore Him. Jews adore Him but think (incorrectly) that the Messiah hasn’t come yet; Muslims adore Him but think (incorrectly) that Mohammed was a prophet and Jesus wasn’t the Son; we adore Him but know about the Trinity.
Of course, we don’t know everything about Him, either; that’s what we call mysteries. But we adore Him without knowing everything there is to know about Him.
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Booklover
Guest
Well, they think it was God so it’s Muhammad they really follow.
Yes, I think they worship a “god” of Muhammad’s invention. You don’t think that people in their pride and arrogance do no create manmade gods to their specifications and desires? Isn’t that exactly what Muhammad did? You don’t think that it really matters how people perceive God to their advantage? How they distort his commands by legalizing same-sex “marriage” and declaring it “holy” for instance?
Vickie
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dzheremi
Guest
Which I did not post about in the first place, so what’s your point?
Okay.
I never said it didn’t. My original post does not talk about Jews at all. You brought up the Jews.
I think I have clarified my position in subsequent posts, so I don’t know why you insist that I adress you. What about what I’ve subsequently written? Why don’t YOU instead address that, as some of these “other issues” are involved there.
God help me, since you’ve continued to rudely insinuate that I am a heretic, I am really struggling not to respond rudely to this particular point. I’ll try, but please forgive me if any of this comes out as a little sharp-tongued (er…fingered). Once again, I will say that in SUBSEQUENT posts, I have discussed in more detail my position: Details do matter. It is not all a matter of number. Jews say there is one God, Christians say there is one God, Muslims say there is one God. We all agree about that. What we apparently disagree on, depending on our religious outlook, is whether or not we all believe in the SAME God, not in the same NUMBER of gods. Believe me, I understand the Catholic (and apparently Episcopalian) view: There’s only ONE God to begin with, so it makes no sense to talk about a “number of Gods”. Until recently, I was spreading that exact argument around these very forums with absolute conviction. In fact, that’s kind of why I started this thread. I do not believe that this is a valid argument anymore, largely in light of what I now see as my own hypocrisy with regard to the argument I made in the thread “We are all Hindus Now” (which I’ve linked several times in this thread, if anyone cares to read it).
I will reiterate what I’ve said in another post in this thread: If it is purely a matter of number, then it would seem that several non-Christian religions are “good enough” to be acceptable within the context of orthodox Christian belief and worship (which is my real concern in starting this thread, regardless of what you want to read into my arguments). Ultimately, I do not believe Christianity works or ought to work this way.
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Godfollower
Guest
Well, I’m trying to help in my poor, inadequate way.Your argument is perfectly valid and if that is the official Catholic view then that’s fine with me. However, Vickie, who is a Catholic – and evidently an enthusiastic one – clearly does not agree with your stance as she posted the following.
And now she’s just posted this:
I agree with Vickie. However, that’s somewhat beside the point. The point is that dzheremi is struggling with the idea that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. Give him some support commensurate with Hebrews 3:13, why don’t you?
Cordially,
Mick
Maybe this is just an instance in which good, faithful Catholics need to simply acknowledge the Church’s official teaching, despite their inability to agree with it – much like people who disagree with the ban on artificial birth control or abortion or same-sex marriage are expected to follow the Church’s teaching.
Or maybe someone else can explain it better than I can. Or maybe I’ll stumble upon a better explanation as I keep trying. As for which argument is the valid Catholic teaching, all I can say is, here’s the quote from Lumen Gentium:
Lumen Gentium ¶ 16.
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Booklover
Guest
Dzheremi, don’t feel bad! According to Edwin, I’m a maniac according to Chesterton!
Vickie
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