Something that has been bothering me for a while now

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Hello fb19 and again, thank you.

Am I understanding you correctly? Prior to the promise of a Messiah, God did not reveal himself “in truth” because they(Jews) may not be able to handle it?

Even though Abraham was the first Jew, God refused to reveal himself fully? The promise of many children and a new nation God felt He should not reveal himself " in truth"?

If God was not revealing Himself “in truth”, what was he revealling Himself as?

Thank you again for your help
Try reading Psalms 105 some bibles have this as Psalms 106…Do you honestly think these people could really grasp the full truth yet?..Did not God guide these peoples?..Yes He did.
I need to find where this is found in scripture" God is the potter,we are the clay"(paraphrased)…placing a piece of clay on the turn table,remains a blob of clay until the potter shapes it into an recognizeable and useable piece.Which was a vessel into which God poured salvation overflowing unto the Gentiles.
 
Throughout my year or so here I have been disabused of a great many preconceived notions regarding religion, both Catholicism and other. But for the first time, starting about a month ago, I’ve actually come to disbelieve in something I previously believed in rather self-evident and hence elemental manner. That is to say, it seemed too obvious to need to be questioned. Given that I’d never even questioned it previously, I’m not quite sure where to go from here, or what it means overall for my faith.

I myself have quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on numerous occasions, and defended the position expressed therein quite strongly. It states:

I no longer believe this. I know, I know, so what, plenty of Catholics on here don’t accept this and not every sentence in the CCC is dogma, so why is this a thread… :confused:

Well, a few things bother me about the implications of this realization:
  1. The CC has clearly taught error here in what can be reasonably deemed to be an official capacity. The implications of this vis-a-vis the veracity of other Catholic doctrines should be obvious.
  2. While it does seem somewhat trivial in a way, the inclusion of such passages says a lot about the philosophy of some within the Church, and a lot of that makes me fairly uncomfortable (to put it diplomatically);
  3. in other ways, however, it is NOT at all trivial. There is no triviality at all in what we believe about God, because the proper worship of God is supposed to be at the heart of everything that we do as Christians and everything that we believe as a Church. For example, we can say that God truly is as He is in the Christian Trinity and we are to worship Him as He has commanded us to in Christianity, or we can be mealy-mouthed in our approach to this dimension of our faith and say that anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians when it comes to the question of who is worshipping what God.
I have always maintained that the Muslims, for their part, get it right in terms of number ONLY (and only superficially so at that), as it is a basic truism of Christianity that there is, in fact, only one God. So, I thought to myself, as there’s only one God to begin with, it stands to reason that anyone who worships God must be worshipping that same God, however uncompletely or incorrectly. I can no longer hold this overly simplistic view, especially in light of the position I have expressed in threads like this one.** I believe that the Trinity, and the CHRISTIAN Trinity at that, is the one true God. Not Islam’s Allah** or Hinduism’s Vishnu or anything or anyone else. So I cannot, for the sake my own soul, say that these other gods, which are not the eternal and uncreated unity that is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, are somehow also my God.

I’m not so much concerned that this will have any practical effect on my relationship with Muslims or any other non-Christian, but unfortunately it and other incidents like it have already had a great effect on my relationship to my own Church. To be blunt: the cognitive dissonance created in the process of trying to make all this work is killing my faith in the Catholic Church.

Were it just about Muslims and whether not they’ll be saved, I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to write any of this. I think it is really symptomatic of some deeper problems. I just don’t really know how to deal with them.

Am the only one who feels this way? Not necessarily about this issue, but…just the Church in general? I don’t want to be a dissident or a heretic. I want to be a good Catholic. I just don’t know what to do.
My brother,many thanks for this analysis.I agree with you 100%.They are not our God.Our true God is only Holy trinity, and if there is any God who is same as trinity,I mean if other Gods like Islamic Allah or other religions’ deity is same, then I must have to think that, I have come to a wrong place because I never accepted this same God theory,and I am never going to accept it.From the very beginning CCC 841 made me sad, upset and confused!
 
I do not think and never have, that Muslims worship the same God we do. Our Trinitarian God did not reveal the Quran, period. Muslims worship the “deity” who did, whether it be Muhammad or some demon who appeared to him as an “angel of light”. Surely God, who is Love, could not be the author of such a hate filled book as the Quran which is the inspiration for all the violence committed by Muslims since the beginning of Islam and which continues to this day. As to what the Catechism says, I think too many people see more in it than what it says. It just states that Muslims profess to worship the God of Abraham but that does not mean that they actually do.

Vickie
Great vickie,nice response.it is 100% correct that Trinity did not reveal the Koran because, we know Koran is such a book that is full of hateful and brain washing teachings that successfully washed out the brain of almost all Muslims,and that’s why we never found the word “love” in Muslim world.In Muslim world you only can find just hate towards others.And BTW, you know Vickey,Muslims will refuse these types of claim by editing their own scripture,and will argue again and again about this like past,but I think it will be wise if we can ignore their broken record that they are playing repeatedly everywhere in this “non catholic religion” page!God bless you.
 
Hello fb19, and thank you for your response.

I am not sure why the Jews would be any less able to see God “in truth” than the Gentiles of the N.T. who had no or zero prior relationship with God.

Why would Moses be less able to handle seeing God “in Truth” than an early (gentile) Christian?

Again my question is- If God was not revealing himself to the Jews ( Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses) “in truth” What was he revealing himself as?
 
They worship the God of Abraham and so worship the same god as Jews and Christians. The rest of their religion is quite wrong, according to me ;).
So what about the “Brahma Samaj”(Not to be confused with Brahmin )?It is a sector of Hinduism and it is completely a monotheist sector and they worship one God named “Param Brahmn” So Do they also worship the same God as we do?If anyone preach a new cult and claim that they worship the God of Abraham, then should all people accept their claim?Like if one of us will establish a new type of religion and claim that the founder is the new prophet sent by The God of Abraham,then will people accept it?if not then may I ask why not?because no one will not follow the new religion or only few people may follow?So the greatness of a religion depend on it’s adherent numbers?And If the greatness of a religion is not dependable on the number of it’s follower,then will they(new cult member.who will claim that they worship the God of Abraham) come under salvation of jesus?If every one can preach a new religion everyday and claim that they are the follower of Abrahamic God and if the claim will be acceptable to Christians then what is the necessity of the new covenant of God?Why Jesus sacrificed himself on cross?To establish everyday some new cults who claim that they worship the God of Abraham ?Or to take them under the salvation of our crucified savior without following THE WAY?
 
God bless you, Morningstar, those types of questions are EXACTLY why I started this thread! 👍
 
God bless you, Morningstar, those types of questions are EXACTLY why I started this thread! 👍
Thank you my brother:hug1:.And May our holy crucified savior always protect you.Carry on your nice works,just you know that God is always with his true followers like you, so do not fear anyone and anything in this world.Amen…
 
Great vickie,nice response.it is 100% correct that Trinity did not reveal the Koran because, we know Koran is such a book that is full of hateful and brain washing teachings that successfully washed out the brain of almost all Muslims,and that’s why we never found the word “love” in Muslim world.In Muslim world you only can find just hate towards others.And BTW, you know Vickey,Muslims will refuse these types of claim by editing their own scripture,and will argue again and again about this like past,but I think it will be wise if we can ignore their broken record that they are playing repeatedly everywhere in this “non catholic religion” page!God bless you.
Hey Morning Star! Glad you’re back! Thanks for your nice comment. Bless you too!

Vickie
 
So what about the “Brahma Samaj”(Not to be confused with Brahmin )?It is a sector of Hinduism and it is completely a monotheist sector and they worship one God named “Param Brahmn” So Do they also worship the same God as we do?If anyone preach a new cult and claim that they worship the God of Abraham, then should all people accept their claim?Like if one of us will establish a new type of religion and claim that the founder is the new prophet sent by The God of Abraham,then will people accept it?if not then may I ask why not?because no one will not follow the new religion or only few people may follow?So the greatness of a religion depend on it’s adherent numbers?And If the greatness of a religion is not dependable on the number of it’s follower,then will they(new cult member.who will claim that they worship the God of Abraham) come under salvation of jesus?If every one can preach a new religion everyday and claim that they are the follower of Abrahamic God and if the claim will be acceptable to Christians then what is the necessity of the new covenant of God?Why Jesus sacrificed himself on cross?To establish everyday some new cults who claim that they worship the God of Abraham ?Or to take them under the salvation of our crucified savior without following THE WAY?
Bullseye! You’re batting a thousand today, Jewell! I couldn’t have said it better! Let’s see what kind of comments we get on this.

Vickie 🙂
 
I don’t know of anyone who actually worships Lucifer in a monotheistic fashion. Give some real examples and we can talk about them.

Edwin
It is not easy to find the lamb coated wolves.Sugar coated cyanide tablet is sweet at first when you will taste it,but then you will die.
 
kalt;5846913:
They worship the God of Abraham and so worship the same god as Jews and Christians. The rest of their religion is quite wrong, according to me
;).

So what about the “Brahma Samaj”(Not to be confused with Brahmin )?It is a sector of Hinduism and it is completely a monotheist sector and they worship one God named “Param Brahmn” So Do they also worship the same God as we do?If anyone preach a new cult and claim that they worship the God of Abraham, then should all people accept their claim?Like if one of us will establish a new type of religion and claim that the founder is the new prophet sent by The God of Abraham,then will people accept it?if not then may I ask why not?because no one will not follow the new religion or only few people may follow?So the greatness of a religion depend on it’s adherent numbers?And If the greatness of a religion is not dependable on the number of it’s follower,then will they(new cult member.who will claim that they worship the God of Abraham) come under salvation of jesus?If every one can preach a new religion everyday and claim that they are the follower of Abrahamic God and if the claim will be acceptable to Christians then what is the necessity of the new covenant of God?Why Jesus sacrificed himself on cross?To establish everyday some new cults who claim that they worship the God of Abraham ?Or to take them under the salvation of our crucified savior without following THE WAY?
What you’re missing here is that CCC ¶ 841 does not say “Islam is correct” or “Mohammed was a prophet of God” or “Muslims are saved just like Christians.” It only says that they adore God. The Catechism recognizes that some truth is found in non-Christian religions such as Islam but then goes on to state that they are incorrect to the extent that they differ from Christianity:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
CCC ¶¶ 843-844.

The Catechism then makes the point that salvation is found through the Church:
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.
CCC ¶ 845.

You can’t take one clause of one phrase of one sentence in ¶ 841, isolate it out of context, and conclude that the Church must be claiming that Islam = Christianity. That’s not what the Church teaches at all.

They adore God. They have a lot of other stuff wrong – including the triune nature of God Himself, the divine nature of Jesus, and the false belief in the Quran – but they adore God.
 
So what about the “Brahma Samaj”(Not to be confused with Brahmin )?It is a sector of Hinduism and it is completely a monotheist sector and they worship one God named “Param Brahmn” So Do they also worship the same God as we do?If anyone preach a new cult and claim that they worship the God of Abraham, then should all people accept their claim?Like if one of us will establish a new type of religion and claim that the founder is the new prophet sent by The God of Abraham,then will people accept it?if not then may I ask why not?because no one will not follow the new religion or only few people may follow?So the greatness of a religion depend on it’s adherent numbers?And If the greatness of a religion is not dependable on the number of it’s follower,then will they(new cult member.who will claim that they worship the God of Abraham) come under salvation of jesus?If every one can preach a new religion everyday and claim that they are the follower of Abrahamic God and if the claim will be acceptable to Christians then what is the necessity of the new covenant of God?Why Jesus sacrificed himself on cross?To establish everyday some new cults who claim that they worship the God of Abraham ?Or to take them under the salvation of our crucified savior without following THE WAY?
Well said. 🙂

Appreciatively,
Mick
👍
 
You can’t take one clause of one phrase of one sentence in 841, isolate it out of context, and conclude that the Church must be claiming that Islam = Christianity.
You appear to have come full circle and yet the main point evidently still escapes you. This is from the Original Post:
I myself have quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on numerous occasions, and defended the position expressed therein quite strongly. It states:
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Perhaps this would be an appropriate point at which to start over? 🙂

Peace,
Mick
👍
 
I have one honest comment and concern about the Catholic Faith. If we need Sacred Tradition to properly understand Sacred Scripture, then what source do we have to understand the true meaning and intent of a particular Sacred Tradition? I used to own both the Catholic Catechism AND the Companion to the Catholic Catechism. This thread is so insightful from my perspective.
 
What you’re missing here is that CCC ¶ 841 does not say “Islam is correct” or “Mohammed was a prophet of God” or “Muslims are saved just like Christians.” It only says that they adore God. The Catechism recognizes that some truth is found in non-Christian religions such as Islam but then goes on to state that they are incorrect to the extent that they differ from Christianity:

CCC ¶¶ 843-844.

The Catechism then makes the point that salvation is found through the Church:

CCC ¶ 845.

You can’t take one clause of one phrase of one sentence in ¶ 841, isolate it out of context, and conclude that the Church must be claiming that Islam = Christianity. That’s not what the Church teaches at all.

They adore God. They have a lot of other stuff wrong – including the triune nature of God Himself, the divine nature of Jesus, and the false belief in the Quran – but they adore God.
It is very good news if your explanation is also the official explanation of RCC.But I think you have missed something in my post.My my voice was to those Catholics who really think that Muslims’ worship the same God as we do.Even some catholics here are posting again and again by claiming that “If Muslims do not worship the same God then Jews also do not worship the same God”.Personally I believe that Jews believe the same God as we do,but Muslims’ god is different.God revealed himself to the Jews,but God never revealed himself to Muslims because when islam established,that time the prophecy of Bible was fulfilled.So if any one want to compare Jewish faith with Islam and claim “,if Jewish believe the same God then Muslims also believe”,it is a wrong statement indeed.And that’s why i wrote that if any one (after jesus’ new covenant) establish a new religion and claim that they worship the true Abrahamic God,then indeed it is not only incorrect but also a conspiracy against God.If God of Bible(Both OT & NT) is correct then the later religion establish specially to challenge the new covenant,they are not the follower of the God of Abraham but they are conspirator against the God of Abraham.You see,Muhammed directly declared that who will worship Jesus or holy spirit as God they are the people of Satan,And Satan provoke man to worship another man(Jesus).But according to bible we know that God the holy spirit guides Christians to the way of Lord.So if I say that Muhammed taught our God as demonic God,then is it too easy to refuse my claim?But we must have to think that what they(muslims) directly claim.In reality muslims claims that We Christians are Satan worshiper,and be sure it was the teaching of the founder of islam who was a power hungry man,and who knows, may be the specific false prophet mentioned in bible( revelation)!So it is not wise to compare Muslims’ faith with Jewish faith because they are completely different.One(Jewish) came with the old law that was directly from God,but other came after the fulfillment of the prophecy of bible,and the world need no law after the new covenant,so indeed the 2nd one(Islam) can not be compared to Judaism,although they look same.that’s all.So my voice was to them who really think that Muslims believe the same God as we or Jews do,and my voice was not to RCC( if I missed before the real point of CCC 841).Thanks.
 
It is very good news if your explanation is also the official explanation of RCC.But I think you have missed something in my post.My my voice was to those Catholics who really think that Muslims’ worship the same God as we do.Even some catholics here are posting again and again by claiming that “If Muslims do not worship the same God then Jews also do not worship the same God”.Personally I believe that Jews believe the same God as we do,but Muslims’ god is different.God revealed himself to the Jews,but God never revealed himself to Muslims because when islam established,that time the prophecy of Bible was fulfilled.So if any one want to compare Jewish faith with Islam and claim that,if Jewish believe the read god then Muslims also believe,it is a wrong statement indeed.And that’s why i wrote that if any one (after jesus’ new covenant) establish a new religion and claim that they worship the true Abrahamic God,then indeed it is not only incorrect but also a conspiracy against God.If God of Bible(Both OT & NT) is correct then the later religion establish specially to challenge the new covenant,they are not the follower of the god of Abraham but they are conspirator against the God of Abraham.You see,Muhammed directly declared that who will worship Jesus or holy spirit as God they are the people of Satan,And Satan provoke man to worship another man(Jesus).But according to bible we know that God the holy spirit guide Christians to the way of Lord.So if I say that Muhammed taught our God as demonic God,then is it too easy to refuse my claim?But we must have to think that what they(muslims) directly claim.In reality muslims claims that We Christians are Satan worshiper,and be sure it was the teaching of the founder of islam who was a power hungry man,and who knows may be the specific false prophet mentioned in bible!So it is not wise to compare Muslims faith with Jewish faith because they are completely different.One(Jewish) came with the old covenant that was directly to God,but other came after the fulfilment of the prophecy of bible,so indeed the 2nd one)Islam) can not be compared to Judaism,although they looks same.that’s all.So my voice was to them who really think that Muslims believe the same God as we do,and my voice was not to RCC( if I missed the real point of CCC 841).Thanks.
I believe all of us are born into this world as children of satan, children of darkness, and citizens of the kingdom of darkness. And by the grace of God alone, we are moved from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Please note that Jesus calls the unbelieving Jews as children of the devil.

You Are of Your Father the Devil

They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” - Sacred Scripture
 
It is very good news if your explanation is also the official explanation of RCC.But I think you have missed something in my post.My my voice was to those Catholics who really think that Muslims’ worship the same God as we do.Even some catholics here are posting again and again by claiming that “If Muslims do not worship the same God then Jews also do not worship the same God”.Personally I believe that Jews believe the same God as we do,but Muslims’ god is different.God revealed himself to the Jews,but God never revealed himself to Muslims because when islam established,that time the prophecy of Bible was fulfilled.So if any one want to compare Jewish faith with Islam and claim “,if Jewish believe the same God then Muslims also believe”,it is a wrong statement indeed.And that’s why i wrote that if any one (after jesus’ new covenant) establish a new religion and claim that they worship the true Abrahamic God,then indeed it is not only incorrect but also a conspiracy against God.If God of Bible(Both OT & NT) is correct then the later religion establish specially to challenge the new covenant,they are not the follower of the God of Abraham but they are conspirator against the God of Abraham.You see,Muhammed directly declared that who will worship Jesus or holy spirit as God they are the people of Satan,And Satan provoke man to worship another man(Jesus).But according to bible we know that God the holy spirit guides Christians to the way of Lord.So if I say that Muhammed taught our God as demonic God,then is it too easy to refuse my claim?But we must have to think that what they(muslims) directly claim.In reality muslims claims that We Christians are Satan worshiper,and be sure it was the teaching of the founder of islam who was a power hungry man,and who knows, may be the specific false prophet mentioned in bible( revelation)!So it is not wise to compare Muslims’ faith with Jewish faith because they are completely different.One(Jewish) came with the old law that was directly from God,but other came after the fulfillment of the prophecy of bible,and the world need no law after the new covenant,so indeed the 2nd one(Islam) can not be compared to Judaism,although they look same.that’s all.So my voice was to them who really think that Muslims believe the same God as we or Jews do,and my voice was not to RCC( if I missed before the real point of CCC 841).Thanks.
I want to add something in my previous post,and that is although Jews believe in the same God as we do,but their belief is incomplete,but indeed they(Jews) believe in the God of Bible.So Muslims’ faith can never be compared to Jewish faith.

God bless.
 
I want to add something in my previous post,and that is although Jews believe in the same God as we do,but their belief is incomplete,but indeed they(Jews) believe in the God of Bible.So Muslims’ faith can never be compared to Jewish faith.

God bless.
What do you think about this Sacred Scripture about the Jews. I believe there is a physcial Jew and a spiritual Jew. What is a true Jew?

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”
 
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